Multiple sources have them at around $27M. The cap is expected to be around 206 or higher. Something seems off unless there is a big NLTBE carryover.Miguel has them with $2.5 MM in cap space for 2022. OTC's projection (which is $21.5 MM, not $27 MM) is rosy. Also, cutting guys like Asiasi and Keene and Winovich and Asiasi doesn't really save you any money. The nominal savings of less than a million is offset by the reality of needing to replace them with some other contract, so you save a couple hundred K at most.
2 3rd rounders actually. One in the next 2 drafts. I definitely agree I want him to get a job as I think he would take a coordinator job to leave New England anyways.Root for Mayo to get the Houston job so the Pats can pick up an extra 3rd round comp pick.
You can always feel very safe trusting Miguel over other places.Multiple sources have them at around $27M. The cap is expected to be around 206 or higher. Something seems off unless there is a big NLTBE carryover.
My only argument with the above is item 2, in that only top-51 matter until opening day.
With the QB class the way it is, you could see a QB needy team trade back up into the early 20s for a Corral or a Kenny Pickett or a Malik Willis.They might have to move back in the draft to accumulate more picks. I always hate when they move back but they have so many holes that need to be filled and they need as many cracks as possible.
QB needy teamsWith the QB class the way it is, you could see a QB needy team trade back up into the early 20s for a Corral or a Kenny Pickett or a Malik Willis.
Bill is not paying him number 1 cornerback salary.I do not want JCJ back next year. He talked too much and in big moments got shredded. Last night he was fucking terrible. Lots of Asante in him and I have no use for that.
Most of that makes sense. I am, however, skeptical about the tenders. Really a second round tender to Meyers? Only of the goal is to stop him getting any offers, because no one is giving a second for Meyers. Are Gunner and Johnson really free agent targets for other teams? Why not tender Meyers at the $2.4 number and not tender the others. Maybe someone else wants Meyers, but he seems to have a niche here that makes him more valuable here than he would be elsewhere. Is he the type of guy teams would want to overspend on? I don't see it.
The next step down as a tender is original round. Since Jakobi was undrafted, you'd get zero if you didn't match and you'd just open yourself up to matching a bigger offer.Most of that makes sense. I am, however, skeptical about the tenders. Really a second round tender to Meyers? Only of the goal is to stop him getting any offers, because no one is giving a second for Meyers. Are Gunner and Johnson really free agent targets for other teams? Why not tender Meyers at the $2.4 number and not tender the others. Maybe someone else wants Meyers, but he seems to have a niche here that makes him more valuable here than he would be elsewhere. Is he the type of guy teams would want to overspend on? I don't see it.
Edit: To come at this from another angle, the Pats tendered JCJ at the second round level last year. I thought they were being crazy not to tender him at the first round level and that other teams were crazy for not pouncing on JCJ. Whether I (and teams) were right or wong about that, JCJ is simply a different class of player than Meyers.
Why not?Bill is not paying him number 1 cornerback salary.
No way.
Well, we shall see. Our opinions don’t really count.The hell he isn't.
Wait, how does that work?Root for Mayo to get the Houston job so the Pats can pick up an extra 3rd round comp pick.
If Mayo is hired as a head coach the Patriots get 3rd round compensation picks in the next two drafts.Wait, how does that work?
Teams are awarded comp picks if other teams hire minority coaches or executives to certain jobs (eg, GM, head coach, a coordinator gig), the idea being it’ll help incentivize teams to invest in developing minority coaches/executives.Wait, how does that work?
Well definitely I don't know if BB will sign him. No clue about that. But he's ABSOLUTELY a #1 corner. He was either the best or 2nd best corner in the NFL this year. Ramsey is the other.Well, we shall see. Our opinions don’t really count.
Yeah, I'm really puzzled by this argument. If you think you can spend the JC money to improve the team elsewhere, that's fine. But he'll get number 1 CB contract because he's indisputably a number 1 CB.Well definitely I don't know if BB will sign him. No clue about that. But he's ABSOLUTELY a #1 corner. He was either the best or 2nd best corner in the NFL this year. Ramsey is the other.
Either you or Miguel has to be wrong about this, because he suggests "right of refusal" tenders to Gunner (undrafted) and Johnson (undrafted).The next step down as a tender is original round. Since Jakobi was undrafted, you'd get zero if you didn't match and you'd just open yourself up to matching a bigger offer.
If you tender him at 3.9M for the second rounder, very unlikely anyone tries to sign him.
If you tender him at 2.4M for the original round, someone will surely offer him more than 3.9M since there is no draft pick lost.
Wow, had no idea. Go Mayo.If Mayo is hired as a head coach the Patriots get 3rd round compensation picks in the next two drafts.
Well obviously, it would be me not Miguel. I wrote "original round" rather than "right of refusal"Either you or Miguel has to be wrong about this, because he suggests "right of refusal" tenders to Gunner (undrafted) and Johnson (undrafted).
Oh, OK. I misunderstood. No compensation. FineWell obviously, it would be me not Miguel. I wrote "original round" rather than "right of refusal"
Works out the same tho. No compensation if you don't match.
CORRECTION
If you tender him at 3.9M for the second rounder, very unlikely anyone tries to sign him.
If you tender him at 2.4M for the right of refusal, someone will surely offer him more than 3.9M since there is no draft pick lost.
Let's hope Mayo gets hired away and BB rehires and rehabilitates Flores so he gets hired away in two years.If Mayo is hired as a head coach the Patriots get 3rd round compensation picks in the next two drafts.
I want Flores, Judge, and Dante back as assistants. The D, OL, and special teams were awesome when they were here.Let's hope Mayo gets hired away and BB rehires and rehabilitates Flores so he gets hired away in two years.
If players have not soured on him for reasons that IdiotKicker mentioned then I think this is a good move for both sides.If anyone is coming back it will be Judge considering the Giants will be paying his salary.
That is bad news. RB was another position they have had a lot of success developing quality starters. Losing Dante and Fears in 2 years is tough to swallow.BTW, on 98.5 towards the end of the game last night they were suggesting Fears is retiring.
Ale's ideal replacement:That is bad news. RB was another position they have had a lot of success developing quality starters. Losing Dante and Fears in 2 years is tough to swallow.
Gunner has value as an extremely low cost ST player. At $2.4M, his value evaporates as he occupies too much of the cap in relation to what he produces on ST, which is 95% returning an occasional punt. No way tagging him in the way Miguel mentions makes sense. As far as Meyers is concerned, the best for all parties is to work out a longer term deal, not the tender.Most of that makes sense. I am, however, skeptical about the tenders. Really a second round tender to Meyers? Only of the goal is to stop him getting any offers, because no one is giving a second for Meyers. Are Gunner and Johnson really free agent targets for other teams? Why not tender Meyers at the $2.4 number and not tender the others. Maybe someone else wants Meyers, but he seems to have a niche here that makes him more valuable here than he would be elsewhere. Is he the type of guy teams would want to overspend on? I don't see it.
Edit: To come at this from another angle, the Pats tendered JCJ at the second round level last year. I thought they were being crazy not to tender him at the first round level and that other teams were crazy for not pouncing on JCJ. Whether I (and teams) were right or wong about that, JCJ is simply a different class of player than Meyers.
Plus it looked like he lost 2 steps this year. I would be shocked to see him back at 2.4 mm.Gunner has value as an extremely low cost ST player. At $2.4M, his value evaporates as he occupies too much of the cap in relation to what he produces on ST, which is 95% returning an occasional punt. No way tagging him in the way Miguel mentions makes sense. As far as Meyers is concerned, the best for all parties is to work out a longer term deal, not the tender.
IIRC, in the Belichick special filmed during the 2009 season, he expressed frustration, both verbally and visually, that the coaches didn't seem to be willing to offer dissenting opinions or challenge him on anything.IIRC, in Patriot Reign, Holley's all access book about the early 2000's championships, quite the opposite of a yes-men culture was portrayed. Dissenting opinions were not only tolerated, they were encouraged. As long as the agenda was to improve the team, and you could back it up with evidence(data, film, etc.).
Yeah, I think they might try to get something done with Gunner and Jakob at a lower price point than the original round tender. I imagine those guys are seen as more minimum salary players around the league. Re: a long-term deal with Meyers, I dunno. $3.9 MM is pretty low for an effective WR nowadays. If you work out a long-term deal, you're likely going to pay more than that annually, though you can backload it. As almost always with NE pending FA, it comes down to whether Meyers wants to stay or wants to maximize his earnings; not many do both.Gunner has value as an extremely low cost ST player. At $2.4M, his value evaporates as he occupies too much of the cap in relation to what he produces on ST, which is 95% returning an occasional punt. No way tagging him in the way Miguel mentions makes sense. As far as Meyers is concerned, the best for all parties is to work out a longer term deal, not the tender.
I would be shocked if they don’t franchise him for 17 mill.Well, we shall see. Our opinions don’t really count.
What is Meyers value on the open market though? Seems like most teams have a Meyers or two just that they are further down the depth chart on most teams. He gets by with savvy and intelligence as his athleticism is severely limited. He seems to be able to effectively beat zone concepts which I guess the majority of the NFL runs these days but slow smallish possession receivers just don't seem to be in demand. To me Meyers was the go to guy because he was one of the few guys Mac could trust to run the right routes and catch the damn ball. Kind of like when Reche Caldwell lead the 2006 Pats in REC/REC yards. He was by no means a good player, he was just a decent player in the right situation. I think Meyers is a great story but I also think he is largely fungible.Yeah, I think they might try to get something done with Gunner and Jakob at a lower price point than the original round tender. I imagine those guys are seen as more minimum salary players around the league. Re: a long-term deal with Meyers, I dunno. $3.9 MM is pretty low for an effective WR nowadays. If you work out a long-term deal, you're likely going to pay more than that annually, though you can backload it. As almost always with NE pending FA, it comes down to whether Meyers wants to stay or wants to maximize his earnings; not many do both.
Yeah, what does Meyers do that Bourne doesn’t? I’d like to keep Meyers but I would also like to see a shiftier slot guy that every team seems to have but us.What is Meyers value on the open market though? Seems like most teams have a Meyers or two just that they are further down the depth chart on most teams. He gets by with savvy and intelligence as his athleticism is severely limited. He seems to be able to effectively beat zone concepts which I guess the majority of the NFL runs these days but slow smallish possession receivers just don't seem to be in demand. To me Meyers was the go to guy because he was one of the few guys Mac could trust to run the right routes and catch the damn ball. Kind of like when Reche Caldwell lead the 2006 Pats in REC/REC yards. He was by no means a good player, he was just a decent player in the right situation. I think Meyers is a great story but I also think he is largely fungible.
I think you're selling Meyers way short here - no, he's not as good as Edelman or Welker or Troy Brown, but he's probably better than Danny Amendola ever was. He's been durable, he's big for a slot, he has good hands, he's not super quick but he's a good route runner, knows the offense, and has shown some ability to beat press on the outside. He's coming off his second straight year leading the team in receiving; he actually was more efficient on a per-target / per-snap basis in 2020 with Cam throwing to him.What is Meyers value on the open market though? Seems like most teams have a Meyers or two just that they are further down the depth chart on most teams. He gets by with savvy and intelligence as his athleticism is severely limited. He seems to be able to effectively beat zone concepts which I guess the majority of the NFL runs these days but slow smallish possession receivers just don't seem to be in demand. To me Meyers was the go to guy because he was one of the few guys Mac could trust to run the right routes and catch the damn ball. Kind of like when Reche Caldwell lead the 2006 Pats in REC/REC yards. He was by no means a good player, he was just a decent player in the right situation. I think Meyers is a great story but I also think he is largely fungible.
The coaching staff certainly thinks there's something, because Meyers outsnapped Bourne in every game this season and overall played about 50% more snaps. In fact, he led all Patriots skill players in snaps (~85%) and it was not close (Hunter Henry was #2 at ~68%). And it's not an either/or - Meyers and Bourne played together in 3 WR sets, so even if you think Bourne is better, there's room for both.Yeah, what does Meyers do that Bourne doesn’t? I’d like to keep Meyers but I would also like to see a shiftier slot guy that every team seems to have but us.
It's not hard to replace those guys for less money. It's hard to replace them for less money if you want to improve in those spots. Obviously, they'd like to improve there. But....take Hightower. There isn't a Pats fan alive that doesn't love that guy - he's been instrumental in three SB titles here. But clearly he isn't the same player. You can probably pay a lower amount for a lesser name, but a guy who probably can still play at or maybe even above Hightower's present level. I'm sure such a guy exists that BB could snag.I think you're selling Meyers way short here - no, he's not as good as Edelman or Welker or Troy Brown, but he's probably better than Danny Amendola ever was. He's been durable, he's big for a slot, he has good hands, he's not super quick but he's a good route runner, knows the offense, and has shown some ability to beat press on the outside. He's coming off his second straight year leading the team in receiving; he actually was more efficient on a per-target / per-snap basis in 2020 with Cam throwing to him.
But even if you're lower on Meyers than I am, here is my point: you can save almost $4 MM if you don't give him an RFA tender, but now you lost a guy who played a ton of snaps and you have to replace him. Can you replace him for less money? Unlikely in free agency, and if you use the draft to solve that problem that's a) an opportunity cost when we need to add young talent throughout the roster, b) a situation where now you have to rely on a rookie WR, which is pretty dicey. Like who is the internal option right now if Meyers walks? More snaps for Harry? Kristian Wilkerson? Tre Nixon?
This is just one example of the issues throughout the roster with trying to save cap money in 2022. You can save $5MM cutting Kyle Van Noy, but he was 6th on the team in defensive snaps; who plays those now? You can let Bentley and Hightower walk; fine, but those guys were 8th and 9th in snaps and now you need two LBs. You can cut Godchaux after a year to save $5 MM, but he let all DL in snaps played, so someone has to pick up the slack there. It's going to be really hard to fill all these roles for less money.
The coaching staff certainly thinks there's something, because Meyers outsnapped Bourne in every game this season and overall played about 50% more snaps. In fact, he led all Patriots skill players in snaps (~85%) and it was not close (Hunter Henry was #2 at ~68%). And it's not an either/or - Meyers and Bourne played together in 3 WR sets, so even if you think Bourne is better, there's room for both.
ok so name names- who is the person who’s going to be better than agoholor at less than 5m, who is better than Godchaux at 5m, who is better than Hightower for 3 million? Everyone loves the idea of stripping a team of every person who’s not a pro bowlIt's not hard to replace those guys for less money. It's hard to replace them for less money if you want to improve in those spots. Obviously, they'd like to improve there. But....take Hightower. There isn't a Pats fan alive that doesn't love that guy - he's been instrumental in three SB titles here. But clearly he isn't the same player. You can probably pay a lower amount for a lesser name, but a guy who probably can still play at or maybe even above Hightower's present level. I'm sure such a guy exists that BB could snag.
We’ll, there’s an almost 100% chance that Hightower will not be a NFL caliber player next season. I would say there is little chance he is on the roster; he certainly shouldn’t be.ok so name names- who is the person who’s going to be better than agoholor at less than 5m, who is better than Godchaux at 5m, who is better than Hightower for 3 million? Everyone loves the idea of stripping a team of every person who’s not a pro bowl
Skill position player of pass rusher and using the money to get impact free agents but it’s like really hard to get players (other than good draft picks) who cost less than 2
Million a year yet deserve major playing time
It’s pretty clearly time to move on fromWe’ll, there’s an almost 100% chance that Hightower will not be a NFL caliber player next season. I would say there is little chance he is on the roster; he certainly shouldn’t be.
Still, agree that many of the other players mentioned will likely be back. Godchaux, for example, is probably fairly paid for his production.
I’m not sure they all have to go, but I’m pretty much here as well. If we accept the quote he only wants to coach players he wants to be around, it’s hard not to think it applies at least as much for coaches he would effectively be living with.I hope we bring back zero old coordinators. Those teams didn't win because of the coordinators, they won because of the talent, if anything I think Bill needs to be more aggressive in hiring outside coordinators/coaches who come from different backgrounds to get some new blood and new opinions in the building. The best run for the Patriots was when they were early on the spread, this team feels like it's gotten stagnant on both ends. One example is... you have a good run game, you have a QB who ran a ton of RPO in college... RPO has been used very effectively by some of the best offenses... but the Patriots don't even sprinkle it in. It feels like Bill and Josh and the rest of the staff has stagnated into what is comfortable.
Hightower's cap hit was north of $12 MM this year, so I'm sure you're right you can replace his production for less. The problem is he's not under contract at all, and neither is Bentley, and there's not much cap space to speak of to fill that hole, as well as several others.It's not hard to replace those guys for less money. It's hard to replace them for less money if you want to improve in those spots. Obviously, they'd like to improve there. But....take Hightower. There isn't a Pats fan alive that doesn't love that guy - he's been instrumental in three SB titles here. But clearly he isn't the same player. You can probably pay a lower amount for a lesser name, but a guy who probably can still play at or maybe even above Hightower's present level. I'm sure such a guy exists that BB could snag.