I mean if Embiid ever gets healthy and Simmons and Fultz get as good as Hayward & Irving Philly might get as good as Boston, but I think Tatum has the same sort of upside as Fultz, and might be more of a killer to boot. I'm still betting on Boston in the long term.
That's great, but it's not remotely connected to reality. Smart is a better player than Lavine, although I can accept that some would disagree. But, Brown is more valuable than either Dunn (was drafted higher and had a better rookie year) or #7, arguably both combined. Tatum is easily more valuable than the two of those put together. Really, Tatum alone is more valuable than that whole package.
It's not what the value is it's what Chicago is asking for. Just because Boston's "this year's pick, last year's pick, and good young player" is better than Minnesota's doesn't mean Chicago isn't asking for it.
One possibility: if Lakers pick conveys, Cavs get lesser pick (you could make this a bit more nuanced, like if the lesser pick is lower than 5, they get a future first too). If the Lakers pick does not convey, the Nets pick is top 3 protected and, if it ends up in the protection, the Cavs get the Kings/Sixers pick. You could obviously quibble on details here, the point is that the other picks create options for creative protection and conditional conveyances that could've been used.
Not only that, but if the LAL pick vests in 2018, you probably have to trade one of the two anyway given how tough it would be to compete while giving the appropriate development minutes to all of Brown, Tatum, Zizic, Yabusele, BK18, LAL18, and BOS18, not to mention older young guys like Ojeleye (who suddenly has a path to becoming a 3+D replacement for Crowder) and Rozier, with more extra picks on the way from LAC and MEM.
Putting this specific deal aside, and looking at all of the moves together, you have only 4 returning players (and only 1 returning starter) from last year's team. I just think the 2018-2019 edition of this core team will be better than next year's version.
Right but then we still end up with only one of the picks and down the other in 2018 but all of the risk then falls to Cleveland on the Kings being shitty in 2 years. That was probably a deal breaker because the pick is the most valuable asset they were getting back.
Agree completely. For all his faults (defensive effort, maybe not the facilitator you want as a PG, believes the Earth is flat), Irving is pretty much the ceiling for whomever ends up as the BKN pick. Adding him makes this team an instant contender and, given what the Celts gave up and retained asset-wise, I'll take that over the chance to maybe be a contender four years from now.
I actually do think the Cavs valued Thomas and that Lil' Zeke used up one of his nine lives in landing on the one team that will back up the Brinks truck for him because they want his ability to generate regular season wins going forward.
Yeah, I think they're seriously delusional. Cleveland improved their chances slightly for this season, I think, but LBJ isn't staying with that ownership group. It will take them a couple of years to turn the roster over with that payroll, but this deal isn't about retaining LBJ, it's about what comes next.
I get that Thomas is hurt and that he is a deeply flawed player. I also know you have been banging the drum for Ainge to move him before his next contract which makes sense. But you are assuming that Irving has no question marks. It remains to be seen if he is capable of playing in Stevens system and if he will buy into playing consistent defense. It also remains to be seen what he can do as the focal point of the opposing defense with nobody close to LeBron along side him.
But then you have taken the upside out of the deal for CLeveland? While Crowder will be a useful reserve for them, they are taking a ton of risk in this deal as IT may be completely useless. ANd while ZIzic is a decent prospect a deal of Zizic, Crowder and a complete unknown IT, doesn't even get you into the ballpark for a 25 year old superstar who had several other teams pursuing him
I've heard this elsewhere too and it's hysterical. Yeah, LeBron has been pinning all summer for the Cavs to acquire Jae and Zizic to help him moving forward. Delusional.
How bout the fact that Irving is a fucking moron, who somehow thought the best player in the league was holding him back (and the world is flat) while that very player gifted him a championship ring. The potential clubhouse problem comes down to one issue: Irving is probably the third best player on this team and thinks he's the best player in the league. Succinctly put, Irving is a nutcase.
I actually kind of agree to an extent and said something similar upthread. They have a ton of uncertainty after next year so Thomas' contract expiring is perfect for them. They get a year to kick the tires on him and see if he fully recovers.
I mean, that's how I thought of it from the beginning. The pick is the prize for the Cavs.
You really need to provide better evidence for "Irving is a nutcase."
Totally agree. All of a sudden the Lakers pick is the better pick because the Nets pick got traded? The Nets are a horrible fucking team and that pick is a huge fucking asset. I know people have some deep desire to think that their team didn't just make a huge mistake, but that's what just happened. I guess we should just enjoy the four fifty win seasons we got coming and embrace the rebuild that follows . After all when the Cs bottom out in 2025 that draft could be really special....
Given his athletic profile I think you're probably looking at a couple years at least before Zizic is able to play credible defense in the modern NBA, and even then you're probably looking at a limited 20mpg-esque role where you realize that he's actually being exposed badly by the P&R despite raw rebound numbers that look good on paper. Semi Ojeleye is closer to playing NBA-level defense against big men than Zizic is.
The Lakers have loaded up on young players in a ridiculously stacked conference while Brooklyn has acquired credible veteran (unsexy, but veteran) talent to fill out its roster in a ridiculously shitty conference. Why are the Lakers' young guys suddenly going to be the first ones who figure out how to win NBA basketball games?
yes you are irrational about this. There is nothing about Zizac that says anything more than rotation player. He'll have a 10 year career in gbe NBA because of how hard he works but he'sprobay not going to be as successful as Olynyk.
I don't think anyone is arguing that "they got a ton better". The fear that a lot of us expressed was that the bottom of the east was suddenly filled with bad teams that will be looking to lose next year, and the Nets won't be one of them. The security that most of is expressed was that the draft pool was deep enough that Boston would do well even if they were drafting mid lottery.
Zivic was the only one who was tradable. I assume Ainge would've preferred not to include him and that the deal wouldn't have been impacted if we had just tossed a worthless contract in, but we didn't have one. The trade options were Zivic or Rozier to hit the salary level needed to make the deal work.
Who cares about the world is flat stuff? That's great talk radio fodder but doesn't do anything for real basketball discussion. If you want to argue whether Hayward is better than Irving I can see an argument on who is the best player. But that's as far as it goes. Kyrie isn't the 3rd best player on this team. I also don't think he thinks he's the best player in the league. I just think he wanted out of a potential rebuilding Cleveland team if/when LeBron left him holding the bag.
As opposed to CHI or IND or ATL?
Amen. It's like a family buying a house - you save money and then wait for what you want to come onto the market. In a competitive market, you prepare to pay more to get the features you want - school district, yard, bedrooms, garage, etc. You aren't buying the house to make a great deal, you are buying the house to live in it. Some might say "but you're paying above appraised value!!!" but the goal is to GET THE HOUSE, not play at trades (as a real estate investor would).
I don't think that the Pacers are going to be in contention for a top 3 pick. Honestly despite the loss of George I'm expecting them to compete for a playoff spot because the #8 seed looks like a 36 game winner from here. And I think that with Turner still getting better that they're definitely going to be in the mix for #8. Although they have to be majorly pissed that Pritchard ejaculated prematurely given what they could have had for George.
Irving doesn't want to spend his prime with a shitty ownership group after LBJ leaves. That's not nuts.
The rest of the trade outside of the pick is not quite window dressing, but yeah, its not driving the trade for Cleveland. I dont think there was a better asset on the table than a modestly protected Brooklyn pick though. I dont think its reasonable for Cleveland to have given up all of the upside of that pick, but I think there were ways to at least somewhat protect the pick and still have had the best deal on the table.
um....his first choice of destination was NY -- I don't think you want to hang your hat on his ownership preferences in defending his sanity. In any case, who cares: I think the negative critique at the heart of it is that he seems to be a classic hero ball sort.
It was only going to be for, at most, one season and then he could bolt for a better situation. Kyrie, reportedly, would have been ok going to the Knicks for the next two seasons versus staying with the Cavs and contending for a ring for at least this year. If true, that kind of blows a hole in the whole not wanting to play for shitty ownership theory.
Kyrie lived through the Cleveland days without LeBron before and didn't want to go through that hell again in his prime seasons. I don't see anything wrong with that.......he played his hand and ended up in Boston on a Championship contender with its best years ahead of them. I can't imagine Kyrie playing this any better than he did. He's the clear winner here.
I dunno, it's not a binary choice... he might have been okay playing for a hometown team -or- for a team with not-crappy ownership. They each have their own pros and cons.
We also don't know the in-house dynamics that went on in the Cleveland locker room.
On the other hand Irving left about $3 million on the table to come to Boston, so he apparently wants to be here.
