Kristaps Porzingis to Celtics!!!!!

HomeRunBaker

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If you're going to like the Bradley Beal trade for the Suns (which was the right move for PHX) not sure how you can not like KP + 2 firsts for Smart (plus Gallinari carcass)

If White didn't absolutely play his azz off last year, the C's don't move Smart. BUT White outplayed Marcus the entire regular season and playoffs. Sounds like a handful of Celtic fans are still digging in & can't get past White > Smart.

While cold & calculating, this trade improved the team's upside talent, dramatically increased the draft assets, and bettered the roster construction, while addressing the CAP/future obligations. Not sure how you can't give Brad another "A" on a trade.
I like the trade but "outplaying" doesn't account for 4Q matchups against elite players hunting matchups in the playoffs....this is where Marcus will be missed. The Beal trade has zero to do with this one so not sure why the comparison....you had a Phoenix team who would never be able to acquire a player remotely close to Beal's talent level and a massive upgrade from starting Cameron Payne in the playoffs which made it a no-brainer to me as they can now move Ayton for pieces that fit around that core.
 

Van Everyman

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I think people are underrating how important the emergence of Derrick White was to this deal. His play last year, combined with the step back Marcus Smart took either because of injuries or age/wear and tear, allowed them to move on from either Brogdon or Marcus.

I also think Brad correctly surmised that this team needs to take things to the next level to get over the top. There was no way this was going to be Tatum‘s team with him as the undisputed leader as long as Marcus Smart was on the roster. I don’t mean that Smart was undermining Tatum or that they didn’t play well together. But Smart was setting the tone and intensity. He was distributing the ball. He was calling out defensive sets. And if focus and lapses on both sides of the ball were an issue for multiple years running, that needed to change – and it wasn’t going to change if you simply swapped out Malcolm Brogdon.

This isn’t without its risks. But whatever intensity you lose by subtracting Marcus, White + Zingo gives the roster a diversity, focus and coachability they didn’t have.
 

Mystic Merlin

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It does seem like people are valuing two late firsts a lot more than I am. Personally I'd viewed them as roster filler only. Can you expand on this? I've obviously missed something here.
It’s going to be harder under the new CBA for a team with a payroll as high as the Celtics’ (they’re over the first apron of the lux tax and within shouting distance of the second apron) to augment their roster through trade or FA, in short.
 

AB in DC

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Whatever else Marcus was (and he was a lot), he wasn't a top 25 player in the NBA. At least Porzingis is (or is very close). If "top end talent" wins in the NBA, the Celtics now have a top 5 guy, a top 20 guy, and then another guy that's top 25 or at worst top 30. Not tooooo many teams can match that.
Is this really true? I checked the top 100 lists from last summer. Ringer had him at 61, CBS at 85, ESPN 86. (Marcus was 71, 45, 34, respectively)

He had a good year (and Marcus faded a bit) but top 30 seems like a massive stretch.
 

Jimbodandy

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Needs to be repeated: more often than not, Marcus took on tooMuchOffense because no one else would.
This is a "training wheels scenario", not a chemistry problem. Sometimes Marcus would launch because guys were just standing around. Honestly I don't hold that against him as much as some people (he shot .336 last year), but I do think that this is an opportunity to change the mindset there.

I am going to miss Marcus.
Same
 

lexrageorge

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It does seem like people are valuing two late firsts a lot more than I am. Personally I'd viewed them as roster filler only. Can you expand on this? I've obviously missed something here.
With 2 super max players in Tatum and Brown, the Celtics will generally be flirting with or over the 2nd tax apron. That means no taxpayer MLE, no signing buyout candidates, and no ability to aggregate salaries via trade. And I believe TPE's will be unavailable as well. The last is a big deal, as the Celtics aggregated salaries to get Derrick White, Brodgon, and now Porzingis. So the only way for the Celtics to add players in the forseeable future is to either (a) do 1-on-1 for salary matching trades; (b) sign veteran minimum flotsam; or (c) uncover hidden gems in the draft.
 

JM3

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I think people are overrating Porzingis. The trade has a really high ceiling for the Celtics because when Porzingis is healthy and engaged he is a dynamic player that can add a lot on both ends of the floor. We've yet to see that Porzingis on a good team, his closest chance was on Dallas and they were driving him to the airport because he was surly and disengaged. In Washington he played for a low-stakes team that wasn't competitive and thoroughly out of the spotlight, and he played very well. We will see how he fits in Boston, but its a completely different role and this is a guy who has disappointed a lot of fans over the years. Top 25-30 player? I'll believe it when I see it.
The Wizards may not have been competitive (35-47 is a pretty good harbinger of non-competitiveness), but they actually outscored opponents by 1.6 points per 100 possessions when Staps was on the court.

He's a much better guy to run the offense through when Tatum is out than JB & can really help reduce the grind on both guys, as well as reducing the grind on TL/Al.

His roster fit is pretty perfect in that regard. Of course there are always "if he's healthy" caveats, but this really increases the ceiling of the team adding a legitimate 3rd offensive weapon with both horizontal & vertical gravity who also can positively impact interior defense.

I don't have a lot bad to say about Smart (even though I wanted him traded immediately after the season & the team was better when he wasn't on the court), but I think this is pretty cool, & they still have a lot of flexibility to do more around the edges.
 

Squeteague

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It’s not a given that it is two late firsts, a significant injury to Thompson or Curry, potentially combined with Green opting out could make the Warriors pick a late lottery pick.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The Wizards may not have been competitive (35-47 is a pretty good harbinger of non-competitiveness), but they actually outscored opponents by 1.6 points per 100 possessions when Staps was on the court.
The Wizards point differential last year was -1.2 as they lost an inordinate amount of close games primarily when their roster on was injury-depleted and/or tanking down the stretch. This was a point of discussion much of the season in Silver Dollar as they were undervalued so often due to being gritty and competitive despite being shorthanded much of the time.
 

benhogan

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It does seem like people are valuing two late firsts a lot more than I am. Personally I'd viewed them as roster filler only. Can you expand on this? I've obviously missed something here.
Brad has used a First round pick to
1. move a maxed & completely done Kemba Walker for Al Horford
2. obtain an underrated Derrick White
3. obtain the 6th Man of the Year

Brad has wrung every single ounce out of late Firsts he has moved.

I like the trade but "outplaying" doesn't account for 4Q matchups against elite players hunting matchups in the playoffs....this is where Marcus will be missed. The Beal trade has zero to do with this one so not sure why the comparison....you had a Phoenix team who would never be able to acquire a player remotely close to Beal's talent level and a massive upgrade from starting Cameron Payne in the playoffs which made it a no-brainer to me as they can now move Ayton for pieces that fit around that core.
I figured you liked the deal. You watched enough Porzinga's last year to see where he fits in here.

I think in light of the new CBA, trades have to be graded differently. I'm just using the Beal deal since PHX exploited the DC firesale. PBS opportunistically did the same (while collecting 2 Firsts).

PBS also exploited the Memphis situation, where they needed someone to replace Brooks (Smart is an upgrade) while improving their Locker Room culture (again Marcus does that for Memphis).

Brad just keeps on improving the Celtics by exploiting other team situations
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't really understand the "needed a shake up" position. This team was good enough to win this year, made the ECF despite their coach and primary motivator creating a major distraction, and likely would have been back in the Finals if Tatum hadn't played G7 on one leg. Trading Smart is a much bigger risk, culturally and for what they do on the floor, than Brogdan. I don't think they needed to trade him, but they must see something in KP that makes it worth it. It's a gamble.
Al is, what, 37? He's definitely lost a step and who knows how quickly he loses the next step? TL is an injury risk. They have a huge hole in the front court and they have three starting-caliber guards, all of whom are on contracts that will be hard to be moved for value once the 2nd apron rules kick in.

It does seem like people are valuing two late firsts a lot more than I am. Personally I'd viewed them as roster filler only. Can you expand on this? I've obviously missed something here.
As far as I have heard once the 2nd apron rules kick in, teams like BOS will have a hard time improving their team. They won't be able to aggregate salaries in trades (certainly outbound, maybe even inbound); they can't sign players on the buy-out market; they won't have the taxpayer mid-level exception, and obviously, they won't be able to sign anything other minimum level FAs to fill out their bench.

However, what they can do is draft and re-sign their draftees to as much money as they want (since they are already over the 2nd apron, it's just extra tax by then). Teams that are over the 2nd apron are going to have to draft (or sign UDFAs) and develop or they will have bench issues.
 

BaseballJones

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Is this really true? I checked the top 100 lists from last summer. Ringer had him at 61, CBS at 85, ESPN 86. (Marcus was 71, 45, 34, respectively)

He had a good year (and Marcus faded a bit) but top 30 seems like a massive stretch.
I mean… he scores 23 points and gets 8-9 rebounds a game, is a very good shooter, and is an excellent defender. Are there really 30 guys in the league who do all that?
 

radsoxfan

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Is this really true? I checked the top 100 lists from last summer. Ringer had him at 61, CBS at 85, ESPN 86. (Marcus was 71, 45, 34, respectively)

He had a good year (and Marcus faded a bit) but top 30 seems like a massive stretch.
He had a REALLY good and relatively healthy year. If we get a repeat performance, he might be our 2nd best player (sorry Jaylen).

DARKO has him ranked 18th in the NBA, just behind Harden, AD, and Mitchell. Just ahead of Van Vleet, Anthony Edwards, and Devon Booker.

In addition to a very high skill level for his size, he’s a legit asset on D.
 

JM3

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The Wizards point differential last year was -1.2 as they lost an inordinate amount of close games primarily when their roster on was injury-depleted and/or tanking down the stretch. This was a point of discussion much of the season in Silver Dollar as they were undervalued so often due to being gritty and competitive despite being shorthanded much of the time.
Fair, he also had a +6.2 on/off, though (Beal was +3.6).
 

radsoxfan

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I mean… he scores 23 points and gets 8-9 rebounds a game, is a very good shooter, and is an excellent defender. Are there really 30 guys in the league who do all that?
Agreed, though we have to be careful with the counting stats on a bad team.

Probably unlikely we get a repeat performance of those #s even if Kristaps plays great.
 

Kliq

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I have a feeling in about 11 months, people on here are going to be really, really upset with Porzingis. I hope I'm wrong, but man, expectations seem real high.
 

lexrageorge

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Is this really true? I checked the top 100 lists from last summer. Ringer had him at 61, CBS at 85, ESPN 86. (Marcus was 71, 45, 34, respectively)

He had a good year (and Marcus faded a bit) but top 30 seems like a massive stretch.
Last summer he was coming off an injury filled season in which he was also traded. Those rankings made sense in that context; this past season changed his narrative significantly, thanks to playing in 65 games.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brad has used a First round pick to
1. move a maxed & completely done Kemba Walker for Al Horford
2. obtain an underrated Derrick White
3. obtain the 6th Man of the Year

Brad has wrung every single ounce out of late Firsts he has moved.
This. First round picks are incredibly valuable capital, even projected late firsts. Steph Curry will be 35.5 years-old when the next season starts. He hasn't played 70 games since 2016-2017 season. They only won 44 games this year. I wouldn't be surprised at all if GSW have another mediocre season and this pick is somewhere in the top 20 next year.
 

BigSoxFan

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I have a feeling in about 11 months, people on here are going to be really, really upset with Porzingis. I hope I'm wrong, but man, expectations seem real high.
What does this even mean? Can you expand?
 

ugmo33

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On paper, the thing I like most about this trade is the ability to lean into 2BIGZ lineups, which help a lot in allowing Tatum to guard down, etc. If Marcus was still here, it would have complicated that a bit as I doubt he would have liked being benched, while it seems like Brogdon is ok with it.

However, I hate thinking about this team celebrating a ring without Marcus there...
 

Van Everyman

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I do wonder if the "moving on from Grant" thing changes now that Smart is no longer on the roster. Switchable defensive pieces who can shoot are valuable on a team like this -- and I think his intensity is as well.
 

Kliq

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What does this even mean? Can you expand?
Porzingis is a perennially disappointing player who has underachieved pretty much throughout his career. This board (and fans in general, this isn't really a SoSH problem) will crush an underperforming role player, especially if the expectation for that player is to run the offense when Tatum is out and to consistently play big minutes in the playoffs.
 

Montana Fan

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The more I think about this, the more I like the addition by subtraction of not having to manage Smart's ego about his offensive role and playing time as he gets older.

This team needed some kind of identity rework, particularly offensively. Promoting White to unambiguous starter and paving the way for Point Tatum seem like great steps in that direction.
I’m a Marcus fanboy but I love, love love the trade. I’ll miss Marcus’ energy on the defensive end and not much else. This past season he shot better than 40% from the field for the third time in his career. I come from a time when 40% from the field was thoroughly unacceptable and to be below 40% for 5 of his 8 seasons is well, brick-ugly. At the same time, he shot .333% from 3 last year. Again, a horrible number. Add that to his slow pace of play and the enormous return and this is Brad Stevens at his best. Brad sold either in the middle of or right before Marcus‘ eventual decline has begun.

Love Marcus and will miss him but this trade is a Grand Slam.
 

Strike4

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I think a lot of the "Smart had to go" stuff is sports-talk-radio, narrative nonsense. Smart was not a perfect player, but I never got the impression he always wanted the ball in crunch time, or was disempowering Tatum/Brown because he wanted the spotlight. Marcus did a lot of things to help this team win a lot of games over the years, and other players will have to step up to replace him. I think his shortcomings were used as an easy scapegoat to avoid the harder questions (Tatum and Brown playing poorly during stretches of the playoffs), and I guess Porzingis can easily fill that role.
Also I think people are forgetting that for what Smart was for the Celtics, he was also a pretty good offensive player overall for the NBA. This gets lost when people talk about him taking ill-advised shots etc. and making great defensive plays.
 

BigSoxFan

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Porzingis is a perennially disappointing player who has underachieved pretty much throughout his career. This board (and fans in general, this isn't really a SoSH problem) will crush an underperforming role player, especially if the expectation for that player is to run the offense when Tatum is out and to consistently play big minutes in the playoffs.
In what way has he underachieved? He's been a consistent 20/8 guy the last 6 seasons. He started his career on the Knicks of all teams. What exactly was he supposed to achieve in that suboptimal situation?
 

NomarsFool

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The Celtics basically had two options to try and upgrade their roster:

1) Take a big gamble by mortgaging their future draft capital for an impact player

or

2) Taking a chance that an impact player (who has had some injury issues) can stay healthy

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the choice they took.
 

the moops

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If they didn't have Jordan Poole, I'd agree. He (Poole) has only one useful role on that team: To provide a reasonable facsimile of Curry, when Steph is inactive. It won't be a great pick, if we're lucky it will be in the teens.
Golden State has an 81-142 record all time when Steph does not play. They are a putrid team without him. That is Charlotte 2023 bad
 

lexrageorge

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Porzingis is a perennially disappointing player who has underachieved pretty much throughout his career. This board (and fans in general, this isn't really a SoSH problem) will crush an underperforming role player, especially if the expectation for that player is to run the offense when Tatum is out and to consistently play big minutes in the playoffs.
He played on really bad Knicks teams for 2.5 years before he tore is ACL. But he hardly underachieved as those teams were awful. He had a decent bounce back from ACL season his first season Dallas, but got hurt during the playoff bubble after 3 games in which he averaged 24/9 while shooting 53% from 3. He had his best season in Dallas the following year but then had a bad playoff series, which is admittedly a red flag. The following season Dallas was coached by the vastly overrated Jason Kidd, and so unclear if it should be held against Porzingis. He was fine with the Wizards.

But, yes, if KP is hurt or ineffective in the playoffs next season, people will be upset. I just don't believe that scenario is all that likely.
 

BigSoxFan

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The fact that the three teams he has previously played for all ran out of patience with KP and shipped him out for peanuts probably isn’t the best sign.
Maybe but those teams were expecting him to be a top 1-2 option on a good team and that just isn't him. But as a distant #3 option? I don't have any concerns unless people think he's going to go "Operation Shutdown" on the Celtics if he doesn't get his 20ppg or something. I just don't think we can make any firm conclusions based on his prior experience. It's possible they lost patience with the injury risk, which we all acknowledge will forever be there. And Washington is rebuilding so signing KP to a large deal during a window where they know they want to be bad never made much sense.
 
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The Celtics basically had two options to try and upgrade their roster:

1) Take a big gamble by mortgaging their future draft capital for an impact player

or

2) Taking a chance that an impact player (who has had some injury issues) can stay healthy

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the choice they took.
I think this is fair.

I'm just cautiously optimistic that KP will be healthy for 80% of the games / minutes he will be needed.

But let's roll the dice here and see what happens (and I say this as one of Smart's biggest fans).
 

PedroKsBambino

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I also think Brad correctly surmised that this team needs to take things to the next level to get over the top. There was no way this was going to be Tatum‘s team with him as the undisputed leader as long as Marcus Smart was on the roster. I don’t mean that Smart was undermining Tatum or that they didn’t play well together. But Smart was setting the tone and intensity. He was distributing the ball. He was calling out defensive sets. And if focus and lapses on both sides of the ball were an issue for multiple years running, that needed to change – and it wasn’t going to change if you simply swapped out Malcolm Brogdon.
I tend to agree---and it's intersting to ponder whether they would have moved Smart regarldess of Brogdon.

There's a report Smart deal came about only after Clips three-way fell apart...and other reporting/speculation that the Smart-Memphis deal was separately negotiated and initially indepednent.

My intuition is that the above was one of the offseason goals: go all-in on Jays and figure out the pieces around them, which requires Smart to move. Whether or not that's good...we'lls ee
 

Jimbodandy

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In what way has he underachieved? He's been a consistent 20/8 guy the last 6 seasons. He started his career on the Knicks of all teams. What exactly was he supposed to achieve in that suboptimal situation?
I had someone question how meaningful his contributions to Dallas and New York were, since they didn't exactly rock the playoffs when he was there. Got a good laugh out of that.
 

AB in DC

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I called this (sort of).

Very pleasantly surprised at what we got back. I guess Smart does have high value to the right team.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-celtics-offseason.39525/post-5570909
I'll be a lot happier if Porzingis signs an extension. I get the logic of trading away from a position of depth (PG) to fill a need (big man), but both Porzingis and JB unsigned after 2024 makes me very nervious. And as for Smart -- damn, I just really like the man. I will miss him.
 

benhogan

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This. First round picks are incredibly valuable capital, even projected late firsts. Steph Curry will be 35.5 years-old when the next season starts. He hasn't played 70 games since 2016-2017 season. They only won 44 games this year. I wouldn't be surprised at all if GSW have another mediocre season and this pick is somewhere in the top 20 next year.
If GSW loses Draymond in FA it could get pretty mediocre there

Expecting Brad to use salary & that GSW pick to upgrade the roster at the trade deadline.
ALSO wouldn't be surprised to see Boston use #25 + Grant S&T to do some more upgrades this summer.

Boston is past developing rookies
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fair, he also had a +6.2 on/off, though (Beal was +3.6).
Yeah when that team was healthy they were absolutely a playoff team, very solid. Without them they competed hard often as big underdogs but didn't have the close out talent to finish games.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'll be a lot happier if Porzingis signs an extension. I get the logic of trading away from a position of depth (PG) to fill a need (big man), but both Porzingis and JB unsigned after 2024 makes me very nervious. And as for Smart -- damn, I just really like the man. I will miss him.
I'm not really concerned about JB. He is very likely to sign that super max deal soon. And if he doesn't want to, for whatever reason, he's going to fetch a pretty solid return. If Smart can get you KP and 2 firsts, the return for JB has to be even better. As for Porzingis extension, I'd rather see him in action first before committing long-term. If things go well, he'll almost certainly be back. If they don't, you don't have to worry about a potential albatross contract.
 

slamminsammya

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Reading about this deal here and elsewhere, it seems like half the Internet thinks it's "Brogdan" for some reason.

I still have my Mark McGuire rookie card.
This has been bothering me so much since the playoffs. Don't yall watch the games? How many times have folks here read his name? I know it shouldn't bother me so much. lll talk to my therapist about it.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Porzingis is a perennially disappointing player who has underachieved pretty much throughout his career. This board (and fans in general, this isn't really a SoSH problem) will crush an underperforming role player, especially if the expectation for that player is to run the offense when Tatum is out and to consistently play big minutes in the playoffs.
I don't think anyone is expecting the offense to run through Porzingis when Tatum is out.
 

Cellar-Door

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The fact that the three teams he has previously played for all ran out of patience with KP and shipped him out for peanuts probably isn’t the best sign.
Not sure that's an accurate assessment at all:
Knicks... maybe? Though he asked for a trade not the other way around, and they were going to have to max him while he was out with an ACL, got big return too.
Mavs.. yeah he and Luka (and he and Kidd) didn't work and they dumped him. Might be his fault, but... Kidd is one of the shittiest dudes in the league and Luka sure seems to be the new Harden both on court and with his inability to mesh with any other star, so maybe not.
Was... he had an opt-out and they are rebuilding. If not I think they absolutely would have kept him.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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People definitely seem to be valuing Porzingis at his peak because of his counting stats and assuming health isn't an issue. And people also seem to be discounting Smart but that's always been the case.

I don't know who "wins" the trade because nobody does but I wonder how this team defends going forward. Smart did a lot of the on the court orchestrating of the D and could cover up for just about anyone in a pinch. That's gone and there's nobody obvious on the roster who can do that sort of stuff.

The rosy takes could be accurate but the downside ones where this team struggles to get stops, especially if the rim protection is on the shelf, should be weighed as well.
 

BigSoxFan

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People definitely seem to be valuing Porzingis at his peak because of his counting stats and assuming health isn't an issue. And people also seem to be discounting Smart but that's always been the case.

I don't know who "wins" the trade because nobody does but I wonder how this team defends going forward. Smart did a lot of the on the court orchestrating of the D and could cover up for just about anyone in a pinch. That's gone and there's nobody obvious on the roster who can do that sort of stuff.

The rosy takes could be accurate but the downside ones where this team struggles to get stops, especially if the rim protection is on the shelf, should be weighed as well.
Who is assuming health isn't an issue?
 

lars10

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Needs to be repeated: more often than not, Marcus took on tooMuchOffense because no one else would.

Will that be the case with alpha scorer Ja in the mix?

IOW: will deeply experienced Marcus help Memphis be less stupid? Or willl take-control Marcus conflict with the Man Ja?

IOW2: I am going to miss Marcus.
He took on a ton of the offense because every team in the NBA wanted him to shoot.. it’s also the reason teams could easily double Tatum.
 

benhogan

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back of the envelope

the Upside: Porzingas plays efficiently like last season and the Celtics are Championship favorites.

the Downside: Porzingas is out injured. White plays more minutes & the Celtics use salary+2 firsts to get a better roster fit player than Smart at the trade deadline
 

OurF'ingCity

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People definitely seem to be valuing Porzingis at his peak because of his counting stats and assuming health isn't an issue. And people also seem to be discounting Smart but that's always been the case.

I don't know who "wins" the trade because nobody does but I wonder how this team defends going forward. Smart did a lot of the on the court orchestrating of the D and could cover up for just about anyone in a pinch. That's gone and there's nobody obvious on the roster who can do that sort of stuff.

The rosy takes could be accurate but the downside ones where this team struggles to get stops, especially if the rim protection is on the shelf, should be weighed as well.
Sure, but the draft picks should also be weighed as well. As others have pointed out, Brad has repeatedly been able to obtain awesome returns for late first round draft picks. In particular, if Golden State scuffles even a little bit early next season that pick will start to look pretty attractive to some teams at the deadline.

Or, they keep the picks and use them to fill out the roster on the cheap, something they didn’t really have much ability to do before this trade.