Yeah he could have been better. Number of factors went into the loss: FT shooting, missed defensive assignments, etc. Biggest one though is not hitting the 3s well enough as a team. If they fall, the team wins much more often than not.
Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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Hmmm, not sure I can get there with this game wrt 3s. They weren't generating tons of them, and they weren't generally the result of getting Denver in rotation or creating perimeter 2-on-1s. They could have hit a couple more, but Denver also only shot 19% on 3s.
The offensive issues were deeper this time than in the first meeting of these teams, when I defended the C's late game offensive approach pretty hard.
Tatum is judged as he is because he's in the conversation for MVP with a bunch of guys who have won championships, something he has yet to do.
Do you think SGA and Luka are judged similarly on their local message boards/radio? Honest question, no snark intended.
There was that one weird one-handed bounce pass from the sideline to the top of the key, picked off to go the other way, that really seemed like a player not giving a shit. I was legit surprised by that. There were a couple other lazy passes that got picked off that seemed tired or unfocused, but that pass looked like, “fuck this game.”
It’s rare, but there are games like this one, and there were more last year, where some combo of the refs, the way he’s being guarded, and his own performance seems to cash him out of the game. I’m sure if I watched every single Bucks or Nuggets game, I’d see the same thing from Giannis and Jokic, but I don’t…
It’s rare, but there are games like this one, and there were more last year, where some combo of the refs, the way he’s being guarded, and his own performance seems to cash him out of the game. I’m sure if I watched every single Bucks or Nuggets game, I’d see the same thing from Giannis and Jokic, but I don’t…
I don’t know about SGA, but I have family in Dallas and they ROAST Luka all the time. Lots of “empty triple double” talk.
Thanks for the context. I guess I was wondering when comparing Tatum to top guys that havent won titles if he gets punished in similar ways to morons who would compare Brady to Montana with the whole "But Montana was undefeated in superbowls!" Aka Tatum has gotten way closer than guys like SGA or Doncic, but because he hasnt actually won he gets unfairly dinged for it.
There was also a play in the closing minutes where Tatum ignored Aaron Gordon coming in to put back a Jokic miss, where I think a more engaged Tatum may have prevented the load bucket.
Every player has bad games. Some of the focus on Tatum is the due to the fact that we, as fans, are rightfully impatient and want to see this team, and Tatum, get over the championship hump. I know not everyone will agree, but if this group never wins a title, many fans will be disappointed in both the team and Tatum.
I mean, outside of Tatum himself, who is the best Celtic who never won a championship? No one jumps readily to mind other than Tatum himself. Easy Ed Macauly, who was traded for Russell before the Celtics won anything? Fair or not, in Boston winning is just the price of admission to the conversation.
Jaylen Brown seems to get criticized way more than Tatum (done more than my fair share of Brown fake trades).
I've been a Tatum TOP3 honk for years, but some elements of his game need improvement. JT is still getting physically bigger and is a couple of years from his peak seasons, so I'm not grabbing my pearls because he still hunts low-efficiency shots.
Last night Tatum was a hot mess. He'll learn from this game. If people here or on the internetz! want to rip a First-Team All-NBA player for the last 5 quarters have at it. He should be held to a different standard. BUT JT will eventually course correct, betting against him is a bad bet. Just makes a future championship that much sweeter.
some of those turnovers were very dumb. and when they had the three on one to tie it and... he goes and takes a three? I know that wasn't all on him but that felt really dumb
Macauley was 4x All-NBA and made three straight first teams with the Celtics--he's the obvious answer.
The missed 3 was fine. That shot is probably as high or higher value as a contested shot near the rim, and Denver had someone back to contest, which is why White made that read. Also White made the pass, not Tatum. Not shooting that would have been criminal.
Better to focus on the many other checked-out plays he had, not the one where he did exactly the right thing.
The Tatum isn’t clutch stuff is what I’m talking about. The guy put up 46 on the road in an elimination game and 50 plus in a G7 just last year. That’s where I push back on the narrative. People act like he’s never come up big in a big game before.
I could care less about meaningless MVP stuff. That’s for talk radio hot take artists. Has he improved the areas he’s had to that involve winning basketball? A resounding yes. Ultimately he’ll be judged on games in April-June, not March. And that’s even if he made that 3 and they won last night. No one would give him credit.
Yeah, a completely wide open, set, corner three might be the best shot in basketball. No issue with that shot at all.
I’ve been beating this drum for a long time but I’ll post it once more here….
General NBA fandom/media criticize (or ignore I guess) Tatum too much. I am higher on him than pretty much any NBA fan or media person you can pick out. I firmly believe he’s a top 5 player.
CELTIC fans criticize Brown way more. Tatum’s the guy and the popular one. It could be that Celtics fans see the general media narrative and thus feel the need to defend Tatum more, I really don’t know.
EDIT: Tatum does seem to have some real dud games at real random times. However, I won’t count the dude out. Ever. He played maybe the worst game I’ve seen for 3.5 quarters and still made some clutch 3’s to win against Philly
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He also just flat out said he was the MVP 2 weeks ago. Glad he owns it, but to walk it, this kind of performance can’t happen.
To really highlight Tatum's lack of aggression, he took just 13 shots and 4 free throws in 39 minutes last night. He's taken fewer shots in just 3 games this year:
-The 29 point win against Utah, in which he took just 12 shots but also had 14 FTAs in just 25 minutes
-The 6 point win against Philly, in which he took just 9 shots but also had 9 FTAs in just 27 minutes
-The 33 point blowout loss to Milwaukee, in which he took just 6 shots and had just 4 FTAs, but he played just 16 minutes
The 8 assists were nice, but he's not that guy. The Celtics will rarely need him to be Luka offensively, but I can't remember the last time he was this passive offensively for an entire [competitive] game without being injured. I'm as big a Tatum fan as there is, but he's gonna wear this loss for awhile.
-The 29 point win against Utah, in which he took just 12 shots but also had 14 FTAs in just 25 minutes
-The 6 point win against Philly, in which he took just 9 shots but also had 9 FTAs in just 27 minutes
-The 33 point blowout loss to Milwaukee, in which he took just 6 shots and had just 4 FTAs, but he played just 16 minutes
The 8 assists were nice, but he's not that guy. The Celtics will rarely need him to be Luka offensively, but I can't remember the last time he was this passive offensively for an entire [competitive] game without being injured. I'm as big a Tatum fan as there is, but he's gonna wear this loss for awhile.
i thought the 4 rebounds were pretty indicative of the type of game he had as well. Not just a poor game offensively, but defensively and rebounding too.
Yup. He's Boston's best rebounder, and has had fewer than 4 rebounds just twice this year, both blowouts in which he sat all or most of the 2nd half - the win against GS, and the loss against Milwaukee.
Yea....I know its early.....but last night Lost him the MVP.
IMHO he was on the outside looking in. But had he had big games over this stretch...(GS and Cleveland "looked" pedestrian by box score....and lets face it alot of voters will look at the Box) then he may have had a shot. While the previous games were "Ok...not amazing" this was pretty much a stinker. especially in a game they could have had (Cleveland too..).
Doesnt mean I dont think he is a great player....but MVP is off the table.
Maybe thats a good thing.
IMHO he was on the outside looking in. But had he had big games over this stretch...(GS and Cleveland "looked" pedestrian by box score....and lets face it alot of voters will look at the Box) then he may have had a shot. While the previous games were "Ok...not amazing" this was pretty much a stinker. especially in a game they could have had (Cleveland too..).
Doesnt mean I dont think he is a great player....but MVP is off the table.
Maybe thats a good thing.
That 3 was a GREAT look. Tatum hits C&S 3s at a 44% clip and the Corner is even closer.
Under 1 minute with a wide-open 3 to take the lead, on the road, isn't really the end of the world the media is making this out to be.
Yea, the MVP discussion was asinine to begin with. Not sure if it was a distraction or not (JT cares about it too much for my liking) but glad it's off the board now. Focus on making the right play with zero attention to individual stats/pointZ going forward.
He already had no chance at MVP. None. Last night didn't change a thing except maybe put him a little closer to 6th place than 5th place
This was Tatum's comments last night regarding the passive way he approached things last night.
“The dynamic of our team, when other guys got it going in a rhythm, in a flow, you gotta space the floor,” Tatum said. “We always talk about respecting other people’s space. I’m always aware of what’s going on during the game, whether it’s J.B. or K.P. had it going and finding mismatches, respecting their space at times. If that calls for being in the corner or passing them the ball, and that’s what we’re trying to do on that possession, you’ve gotta honor that.”
Bobby Manning has a really good breakdown of what went wrong on offense last night and what also worked. Everyone should read this.
https://www.clnsmedia.com/jayson-tatum-and-celtics-offense-struggle-throughout-nuggets-loss/?fbclid=IwAR2u4atXQk36ltkvRBCl4IcpaH3ZsjCFCYx4STLh_c1LU534mOwDkh_iE9A
Wow, those are some serious cope quotes. Especially given how badly he played when he had the ball in his hands. Hopefully it's not reflective of what the team is saying behind the scenes.
Yeah I get taking a step back when other guys are cooking, but that's just not what Tatum did last night. We've seen him do that multiple times this year successfully, but he was very much unengaged for large stretches against Denver. It seemed to me that Brown/KP saw how tentative Tatum was, and were more aggressive to compensate. JB was fine (.583 TS%), but despite the flurry of 3s in the 3rd quarter, KP was not (.457 TS%, while taking a season high 23 shots).
*edit - I'm not overly concerned about what this game means for the future, but let's call it what it was for Tatum - arguably his worst game of the year, considering the circumstances.
I don't think he was unengaged. What I do think happened is that when Denver countered to doubling him, he was very confused how Denver was playing the passing lanes and he/Mazz did not make the proper adjustments. That led him to being pretty tentative IMO. In the clips Manning put in his article, he just doesn't read things right and it led to turnovers.
I'm including his rebounding when I call him unengaged. 4 rebounds for him in 39 minutes is a joke, and no matter what scheme Denver and their 10th ranked defense threw at him, there's no excuse for making 2 shots in the final 3 quarters of a game in which his team trailed for nearly the entire last 36 minutes.
I agree that's what happened. It's pretty different than the lame-ass shit he said after the game.
Also, he's not the first good player to have a double and some different coverages thrown at him. He was bouncing it right off Jokic on an obvious double, making lazy passes to the roller....why is it so hard for people to just say he played like dogshit against pretty vanilla stuff? A big part of being engaged is being up for different challenges and (very minor) curveballs.
I expect him to be much better (and, yes, more "engaged") when these teams match up in the Finals, fwiw.
I disagree. If he goes off, plays great and the Cs win, he may be the favorite. One way out of the malaise of Jokic winning it again, Mark Jones having to come up with another fake reason to not vote for a white guy, etc, was to go back to giving extra consideration to the guy on the team with the best record. The Celtics look like the team running away with best record. I think lots of talking heads would have loved to have a new guy to talk about. So Tatum even making that 3 and Cs holding on put shim in the conversation, a huge game put him at the top.
I do agree with your assessment of where he actually lies, and will end up.
What? He could have scored 75 and dunked 12 times on Jokic's head and he still wouldn't have been the favorite. This is crazy talk
Your scenario is crazy talk. You are eggs.
Richard Jefferson spent the entire broadcast against the Warriors saying Tatum was a good MVP choice. You under estimate how much people who have votes do not want to vote for Jokic.
Stephen A was behind him, briefly. He scores 75 and wins Stephen A struts into the studio with a "told ya!" and Tatum has a good chance. It would allow many guests to come on and not have to say they don't like a white foreigner winning MVP.
Just a few articles before the two game slide
https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-news-kevin-garnett-doubles-down-on-jayson-tatum-mvp-call-after-warriors-thrashing
https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/news-draymond-green-baffled-jayson-tatum-s-mvp-voting-reveals-must-do-contention
I read that article and Tatum’s quotes and I’m not sure how either of them would make you come away from that game feeling better about his performance.
It’s one game, you move on from it and hope it means nothing in the future. But just call a spade a spade. Tatum was awful in a big game under bright lights.
I have him in my DFS lineup today so I expect it to turn around immediately
If I have a concern about Tatum it is his worship of Kobe, and the idea that your best player has to be like Jordan, Bird, Kobe "just give me the ball" and he sees these moments as the be all and end all. We are in an era where the guy rivalling MJ as GOAT is still playing and LBJ hasn't been the clear out ISO guy. Tatum, to me, is a traditional MVP choice since he a great all around player, on a great team. He is great, IMHO opinion because of how easy he is to play with and how he compliments teammates.
I expect my concerns are probably just recency overreaction, since he would not be that great teammate, excellent all-around player if he didn't understand his strengths.
Maybe @the moops won't ague with this: Celtics win a ring and Tatum is favourite for next year.
I expect my concerns are probably just recency overreaction, since he would not be that great teammate, excellent all-around player if he didn't understand his strengths.
Maybe @the moops won't ague with this: Celtics win a ring and Tatum is favourite for next year.
That was a game I am fine with. He had some issues finishing and in the mid-range, and some bad turnovers, but he was way more engaged on both ends. He also took his stepback and made Phoenix guard it, after getting weirdly passive against Denver.
He wasn't the best player on the court, but he was the 2nd or 3rd best player, and the Celtics will win the Finals if he can always be that.
(Also, the clear best player's team only scored 107 and lost by 10, so score one for the team concept.)
He wasn't the best player on the court, but he was the 2nd or 3rd best player, and the Celtics will win the Finals if he can always be that.
(Also, the clear best player's team only scored 107 and lost by 10, so score one for the team concept.)
Can't recall.another superstar saying, "thank God I have great teammates - I stunk.it up tonight..." Pretty mature
He's not Kobe, and I mean that in ways both good and bad. As long as the last few days are just a mild slump and not him hiding an injury, everything is fine.
Haven’t we sort of seen though that the Black Mamba mentality was basically more volume scoring than efficiency? Tatum not having that drive to be the high scorer and shoot the most may be a negative to some, but it does make him a helluva team player and a great fit for this current team.
Jay King wrote about the Celtics' (and really Tatum's) tendency to play too slowly in the clutch. The Cavaliers game was an example,
https://theathletic.com/5321461/2024/03/07/celtics-cavaliers-jayson-tatum-loss/
KIng notes that the Celtics blew a playoff game against Philly for the same reason.
To me, this alone kills Tatum's MVP case. Not the one play but the recurring pattern. Everyone is going sometimes to miss a shot or make a bad play in a key situation. But how can Tatum after 7 years still not know that down by one in a close game is a time to play fast? And while Tatum has become quite good at finding the right play when teams double him, there are some ways teams send help that confuse him. He needs to either figure things out or the Celtics need to put the ball in the hands of White and Holiday more.
He did do better against Phoenix, which was encouraging. When the Suns doubled him late off a screen, he hit Holiday on the short roll, and when Horford's man rotated to the open Holiday, Holiday hit a wide open Horford in the corner for a three. On the next play, the Celtics ran a similar look and when Phoenix didn't send help at Tatum, Tatum - still guarded well by Durant - drove for a layup. These weren't final seconds plays but the game was very much on the line here and the Celtics' (and Tatum's) execution was right where it needs to be.
https://theathletic.com/5321461/2024/03/07/celtics-cavaliers-jayson-tatum-loss/
With the Celtics down by a point, this was not a situation that called for running the clock down that far (a tie game is when that makes sense). Tatum was slow to get started, did not create a good look for himself as the defense collpased on him, and passed up or did not see/look for a wide open Derrick White who had a much better look than him.
KIng notes that the Celtics blew a playoff game against Philly for the same reason.
Maybe this is why Tatum didn't look for White against Cleveland, although he did have the time and Whiite is a better guy to take a last second shot than Smart.
To me, this alone kills Tatum's MVP case. Not the one play but the recurring pattern. Everyone is going sometimes to miss a shot or make a bad play in a key situation. But how can Tatum after 7 years still not know that down by one in a close game is a time to play fast? And while Tatum has become quite good at finding the right play when teams double him, there are some ways teams send help that confuse him. He needs to either figure things out or the Celtics need to put the ball in the hands of White and Holiday more.
He did do better against Phoenix, which was encouraging. When the Suns doubled him late off a screen, he hit Holiday on the short roll, and when Horford's man rotated to the open Holiday, Holiday hit a wide open Horford in the corner for a three. On the next play, the Celtics ran a similar look and when Phoenix didn't send help at Tatum, Tatum - still guarded well by Durant - drove for a layup. These weren't final seconds plays but the game was very much on the line here and the Celtics' (and Tatum's) execution was right where it needs to be.
Example (n): a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule.
Also, watch the way Jokic controls games late. Right now, Tatum's not in that league.
Half wondering if in those last second situations @Eddie Jurak is right. Put the ball in the hands of white or Holliday…. Not for them to shoot but rather to hit moving Brown or Tatum. No way a team can double one of the Jays if they don’t have the ball. If they do then white/Holliday can attack and or dish if need be.
Hopefully this is Joe “experimenting” with letting Tatum be a Mamba. And his real plan for the playoffs involve more team concept.
Hopefully this is Joe “experimenting” with letting Tatum be a Mamba. And his real plan for the playoffs involve more team concept.
Your post says tendency, not example. And no shit Sherlock, nobody is in Jokic's league at that.
I had to laugh when D'Angelo Russell, down one, against Milwaukee put up a shot at 8 seconds (went into action at 10 seconds) on Friday night.
Garland bodying, stopping Tatum temporarily so Allen could help double Tatum into a low % pull-up fadeaway was ironic
The good news is Tatum will learn, and get better. At least he's built for Boston Sports Media
“I’ve said it before that, regardless of how great I play or I don’t, I’ll never get too down or too high. Whatever people are saying, I respect it. People have a job to report on the things that we do, the things that we say, how we play. So I never take those things personal.”
The excuses made up around here to explain away a Tatum error, "They didn't want to play OT" would make every mother proud
Garland bodying, stopping Tatum temporarily so Allen could help double Tatum into a low % pull-up fadeaway was ironic
The good news is Tatum will learn, and get better. At least he's built for Boston Sports Media
“I’ve said it before that, regardless of how great I play or I don’t, I’ll never get too down or too high. Whatever people are saying, I respect it. People have a job to report on the things that we do, the things that we say, how we play. So I never take those things personal.”
The excuses made up around here to explain away a Tatum error, "They didn't want to play OT" would make every mother proud
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