Can't help but think Cespedes (or "Six Footed" in Spanish) will end up in Miami along with Merrero and a bunch of other young talent.
Indiana Jones and the Acquisition of Giancarlo Stanton
- Thread starter Sandy Leon Trotsky
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Um.... he'd be a small piece to send there. Along with Merrero, Betts and several young pitchers along with eating a sizable chunk of that $11M. Christ.
Trotsky said:
But what would that do for Miami? He would leave at the end of they year almost certainly and he has no comp pick attached to him due to his international FA contract. For a team that would be rebuilding post-Stanton, a one-year rental, even a basically-free one, isn't of much use.
Jesus fuck. Yes he's a one year rental for Miami for quite cheap. Stanton only has 3 years remaining there. They would also be able to get the QO or try resigning him for an extension. The deal for the two positional players, and two starting pitchers is very good on it's own. They would have a solid one year placeholder to ease the burden. I can't understand why it's that difficult to figure out. The deal is essentially four top Sox prospects. Two at positions. Two pitchers. Plus they get a one year guy who wouldn't be a terrible drop off with a better chance to sign long term than Stanton who they only have for two seasons beyond next anyhow.
No QO, and if they're not resigning Stanton, there's a zero chance they're going to resign Cespedes.
You've done nothing to show why he'd move the needle in a Stanton trade, so you're basically paying full ride for a useful player to play for another team for no reason.
You've done nothing to show why he'd move the needle in a Stanton trade, so you're basically paying full ride for a useful player to play for another team for no reason.
Seriously? I feel like I'm trying to explain to a fully capable person how to walk on a sidewalk. I'm done. Thanks.
If you want to be an asshole about it, own it. But don't pretend that you're treating Cespedes as anything more than a throw in when you say this,
He's more useful to the Red Sox than the Marlins next year, and if you don't understand why this conversation is fucking pointless.
He's more useful to the Red Sox than the Marlins next year, and if you don't understand why this conversation is fucking pointless.
Drag me back in....
Good gawd, yes, he's a throw in. To me, they could compete or they could also turn him into other players if he's playing well, the Fish are not and they deal him like we did Lester this year. The major deal is the prospects that are ML ready, but they could very well compete if they have someone that's not adjusting to a full time ML role out there- Cespedes.
I already put Betts and Merrero in there along two of the pitchers you mentioned ( I didn't name names, just 2 of the top pitchers which includes Owens). I think that would get in fact actually be a compelling offer. Should do a sock puppet show to illustrate the value of Cespedes here to Miami, especially if they are only paying half his 11M for next season?
Good gawd, yes, he's a throw in. To me, they could compete or they could also turn him into other players if he's playing well, the Fish are not and they deal him like we did Lester this year. The major deal is the prospects that are ML ready, but they could very well compete if they have someone that's not adjusting to a full time ML role out there- Cespedes.
I already put Betts and Merrero in there along two of the pitchers you mentioned ( I didn't name names, just 2 of the top pitchers which includes Owens). I think that would get in fact actually be a compelling offer. Should do a sock puppet show to illustrate the value of Cespedes here to Miami, especially if they are only paying half his 11M for next season?
I'll weigh in.
It makes no sense. Very few teams would value Cespedes less than MIA would. This isn't the NBA where salaries need to match so it would be incredibly dumb to include him in a deal for Stanton. If nothing else the Red Sox could move him to a team that could extend him and get multiple pieces, sending 1 to MIA and keeping the other.
You note that they could compete. If they are competing they'll keep the best RF in baseball no? If they are bottoming out again then why take Cespedes since everyone knows they won't resign him and get no comp pick for him his trade value will be lowered just by being on the Marlins.
Bottom line: Cespedes makes no sense for Miami under just about any circumstances, while having more value to the Red Sox. There is no reason at all for him to be in any trade to the Marlins.
It makes no sense. Very few teams would value Cespedes less than MIA would. This isn't the NBA where salaries need to match so it would be incredibly dumb to include him in a deal for Stanton. If nothing else the Red Sox could move him to a team that could extend him and get multiple pieces, sending 1 to MIA and keeping the other.
You note that they could compete. If they are competing they'll keep the best RF in baseball no? If they are bottoming out again then why take Cespedes since everyone knows they won't resign him and get no comp pick for him his trade value will be lowered just by being on the Marlins.
Bottom line: Cespedes makes no sense for Miami under just about any circumstances, while having more value to the Red Sox. There is no reason at all for him to be in any trade to the Marlins.
2009 Sox traded Manny for a downgrade and went on to 7 games in the AL Champ series. Other teams have traded their best player in the middle of a playoff hunt.
This is fine. I think it makes sense. You (everyone else) doesn't. I expect to see the Sox pursue Stanton this offseason with something along these lines. Sorry for the assholiness on my posts. Seems so obvious that all this prospect loading up with some ML ready talent is a means to getting Stanton. Cespedes is not in the Sox future, IMO.
Not to pile onto trot, but yeah. You cant keep shouting that the reason that Miami would want Cespedes is because Miami would want Cespedes, while ignoring the numerous legit reasons that Miami would not want Cespedes in, of all things, a Stanton trade. And one of the reason you gave is that he's quite cheap? Not to Miami he ain't. Now, if you want to say a heavily subsidize Cespedes would be attractive to them as a throw in, that I'd go along with......jscola85 said:
Feel like this thread has swerved a bit but having made that observation I'll now proceed to continue that trend.
The Red Sox could extend Cespedes and pick up enough salary to make him a very valuable piece for Miami. May be getting a little unorthodox here but when talking about someone of Stanton's caliber, I'd think it's something that'd have to be on the table,
Also, while I agree that in the absence of said extension YC's value to Miami is very limited (within the context of a Stanton deal), I wouldn't say that if they can't resign Stanton then they can't resign Cespedes. Neither will be cheap but with Stanton you could be looking at an AAV like $10mm more than what Cespedes gets. I mean, it is the Marlins, but those are likely to be extremely different contracts.
The Red Sox could extend Cespedes and pick up enough salary to make him a very valuable piece for Miami. May be getting a little unorthodox here but when talking about someone of Stanton's caliber, I'd think it's something that'd have to be on the table,
Also, while I agree that in the absence of said extension YC's value to Miami is very limited (within the context of a Stanton deal), I wouldn't say that if they can't resign Stanton then they can't resign Cespedes. Neither will be cheap but with Stanton you could be looking at an AAV like $10mm more than what Cespedes gets. I mean, it is the Marlins, but those are likely to be extremely different contracts.
they traded him because he decided to act like a damn child and in the process likely cost themselves another World Series if he'd hit anything like Playoff Manny had for the last decade.Trotsky said:
The Marlins won't get much extra if they trade Santon this winter versus trading him next winter. Meanwhile they get to benefit from having the best OF not named Mike Trout in all of baseball, and Stanton is in the middle of arguably his best season to date. Why would they trade him now? His value is likely only going up if 2015 is anything like 2014 for him, which requires simply staying healthy.
This is why the Red Sox have Cespedes, if you ask me. They would obviously LOVE to have Stanton. He isn't available. They aren't going to sit around wishing and dreaming about the day when they might finally get him. Cespedes isn't here to acquire Stanton, he's here because the Sox would like to win some games as opposed to daydreaming about Stanton all the time.
Besides, it isn't like Stanton will suddenly sign on the dotted line for any team that does trade for him. At this point he's two years away from the biggest contract in ML history. Miami is unlikely to trade him until he's only one year away. He'll be all of 26, signing for his 27th season, when that time comes. I think he'll probably pass on those exclusive window offers in favor of the 10+ year, $300M+ offers he'll be showered with when he hits FA in the winter of '17.
I don't think MLB would approve that deal. Assuming Cespedes takes a pretty reasonable extension at 4/$60M, making him 5/$70M total. How much can the Sox eat before other owners cry foul? Certainly not enough to interest Miami, who would likely want Cespedes at $10M or less per season. It's one thing eating money to move a guy grossly under-performing his deal, it's something else to sign someone to a fair market deal and just dump money into a deal to move him as a piece for someone else.OnWisc said:
Any scenario in which the Red Sox attain Stanton, without the deal be saturated with close to major league read talent is a pipe dream. Cespedes fits a role for Boston, but doesn't for Miami, in the context of a Stanton trade.
Last thought on Stanton. I could see two types of deals that could possibly net him:
Deal 1
Xander
Ranaudo/Webster/Barnes/Rodirguez/Johnson/Escobar
Middlebrooks or maybe Cecchini
Deal 2
Betts or Swihart
Owens
Ranaudo/Webster/Barnes/Rodirguez/Johnson/Escobar
Margot/Devers
Stanton is going to net a king's ransom. Xander is an elite young talent and would negate the need to give up on Owens (who I actually think is overrated), Betts or Swihart. Getting him without Xander is probably going to cost the Sox two of the top 3, one of the second tier arms, and a high ceiling guy who's far from the pros. I'm not sure if I'd want to do either trade.
Back to Cespedes- people need to stop looking at 2014 like it is 2007. The guy doesn't get on base that much, but baseball has changed. Offense is hard to come by, these days. You're not going to see many teams with 9 guys who post OBP north of .350. This goes doubly for power. He's flawed, but he's a solid baseball player.
Last thought on Stanton. I could see two types of deals that could possibly net him:
Deal 1
Xander
Ranaudo/Webster/Barnes/Rodirguez/Johnson/Escobar
Middlebrooks or maybe Cecchini
Deal 2
Betts or Swihart
Owens
Ranaudo/Webster/Barnes/Rodirguez/Johnson/Escobar
Margot/Devers
Stanton is going to net a king's ransom. Xander is an elite young talent and would negate the need to give up on Owens (who I actually think is overrated), Betts or Swihart. Getting him without Xander is probably going to cost the Sox two of the top 3, one of the second tier arms, and a high ceiling guy who's far from the pros. I'm not sure if I'd want to do either trade.
Back to Cespedes- people need to stop looking at 2014 like it is 2007. The guy doesn't get on base that much, but baseball has changed. Offense is hard to come by, these days. You're not going to see many teams with 9 guys who post OBP north of .350. This goes doubly for power. He's flawed, but he's a solid baseball player.
M
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Marlins historically (in the press, at least) have coveted competent CFs. They were one of several teams who drooled over Dream Boat in the early years (KC being another). If that still holds true.......billy ashley said:
Would it be possible to talk about Stanton somewhere else? I'd really like to know more about this Cespedes fellow.
Let's count Red Sox outfielders: Bradley, Cespedes, Victorino, Craig (he's an outfielder as long as we have Napoli and Ortiz), Nava, Betts (apparently), and Holt (sometimes). At least one but probably two of these guys will have to go to Miami to avoid an absurd logjam. The only way I see it working is if they deal Craig and either Bradley or Betts, plus a pitcher and probably another guy, like Marrero or Coyle or one of the catchers.
Personally, I want to keep Bradley and Betts -- they are among the most exciting players we've developed in a long time.
edit: Forgot Shane!
Personally, I want to keep Bradley and Betts -- they are among the most exciting players we've developed in a long time.
edit: Forgot Shane!
If Craig shows that he's healthy and such over the next couple months, I'd actually rather they move Napoli (not to Miami) and shift Craig to 1st. So the OF would be Cespedes, JBJ, Stanton with Vic and Holt on the bench.
Betts would almost certainly headed to Miami, he makes too much sense for them as part of a package. That just leaves Nava, and I don't have any strong feelings on what to do with him. Trade him or keep him on the bench as Vic insurance/back up 1st baseman.
Betts would almost certainly headed to Miami, he makes too much sense for them as part of a package. That just leaves Nava, and I don't have any strong feelings on what to do with him. Trade him or keep him on the bench as Vic insurance/back up 1st baseman.
You are saying we should trade 9 guys for Stanton? I agree Stanton is valuable but he is not 9 guys valuable.. Did I mess up my math? I count us giving up 9 of our prospects...That is way too many in my opinion? Explain what I'm missing, please.Papelbon's Poutine said:
Not that this is current, or that it changes anything, but living here in Florida I clearly remember when David Samson was in love this guy...
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Cespedes-is-a-Free-Agent-Marlins-Can-Make-Their-Move-138091393.html
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Cespedes-is-a-Free-Agent-Marlins-Can-Make-Their-Move-138091393.html
Really? We're going to argue about proper internet shorthand??
Back to the thread: Miami was fishing around for cheap pieces to add at this trade deadline (e.g. Lackey), suggesting at least a desire to currently compete. They'll hope to get Fernandez back mid-season next year. All that suggests that they'll have little interest in trading Stanton any time soon. And yet...
Stanton makes $6.5M this year and goes to arb next year. What will he make there? $10M? $12M? He's getting a little pricier, for the Marlins at least. Is it inconceivable that they would listen to an offer built around young, ML-ready talent that also includes one year of a middle order bat, as an interim Stanton replacement (who would also be popular with the fans)? At worst, if/when the season goes sour on Miami, they could deal Cespedes at the trade deadline and recoup more future value. And if the Sox subsidize Cespedes, they could get $80% of Stanton's value at, say, 50% of his cost. This IS Miami we're talking about; that might matter.
So I can see Cespedes adding value to a deal, even if he isn't the main driver behind it. I agree with others that there would need to be at least one top position player (Betts, likely) and pitching prospect (Owens? Maybe RDLR or Ranaudo, if he shows well down the stretch?) included, probably three highly regarded prospects in all.
And alternatively, the Sox could bring in a third team that wanted Cespedes, to grab another young player/prospect who Miami would want, much the way Seattle just helped out in the Detroit/Tampa trade.
Back to the thread: Miami was fishing around for cheap pieces to add at this trade deadline (e.g. Lackey), suggesting at least a desire to currently compete. They'll hope to get Fernandez back mid-season next year. All that suggests that they'll have little interest in trading Stanton any time soon. And yet...
Stanton makes $6.5M this year and goes to arb next year. What will he make there? $10M? $12M? He's getting a little pricier, for the Marlins at least. Is it inconceivable that they would listen to an offer built around young, ML-ready talent that also includes one year of a middle order bat, as an interim Stanton replacement (who would also be popular with the fans)? At worst, if/when the season goes sour on Miami, they could deal Cespedes at the trade deadline and recoup more future value. And if the Sox subsidize Cespedes, they could get $80% of Stanton's value at, say, 50% of his cost. This IS Miami we're talking about; that might matter.
So I can see Cespedes adding value to a deal, even if he isn't the main driver behind it. I agree with others that there would need to be at least one top position player (Betts, likely) and pitching prospect (Owens? Maybe RDLR or Ranaudo, if he shows well down the stretch?) included, probably three highly regarded prospects in all.
And alternatively, the Sox could bring in a third team that wanted Cespedes, to grab another young player/prospect who Miami would want, much the way Seattle just helped out in the Detroit/Tampa trade.
You are looking at the wrong trade proposal post. RG was replying to Pap's suggestion, not bill ashley's.OttoC said:
I mean Stanton is probably fourth on the Red Sox list of big trad acquistion targets now.
My guess would be:
Sale (Pipe dream but would literally give anything)
Hamels
Tulo
Stanton
MIA will trade Stanton. He is not going to sign with the Marlins. Stanton rightfully hates and distrusts Loria. Fernandez's injury meant that the only time they both will be healthy and under control is Stanton's walk year.
I am not sure if Stanton is gone this winter but he will definitely be gone by next winter. He will end up a Cub or Red Sox.
My guess would be:
Sale (Pipe dream but would literally give anything)
Hamels
Tulo
Stanton
MIA will trade Stanton. He is not going to sign with the Marlins. Stanton rightfully hates and distrusts Loria. Fernandez's injury meant that the only time they both will be healthy and under control is Stanton's walk year.
I am not sure if Stanton is gone this winter but he will definitely be gone by next winter. He will end up a Cub or Red Sox.
NDame616 said:
Betts is a top prospect in baseball with better numbers (and defense) than Oscar Taveras. He has a low prospect ranking because he came out of nowhere two years ago after playing in college. There is a decent chance he will be a top ten prospect to start next year.
The Red Sox have three blue chip prospects right now. Mookie Betts, Blake Swihart, and Henry Owens.
Only teams who can beat or match that are the Cubs, Dodgers, and possibly the Pirates,
The Red Sox have a ridiculously top heavy system with nearly every top prospect not named Matt Barnes peaking. A guy like Travis Shaw who would probably be in the top ten of most teams prospect list is not even in the Red Sox top 20. If the Red Sox are going to cash in this is the offseason.
TomRicardo said:
And with the Cubs, their need for a power bat is less pressing than Boston. They have Rizzo and Kris Bryant is expected to mash as well. You can never have too many power bats I guess, but if push comes to shove, I would imagine Cherington's need for power would force his hand to add in whatever sweeteners MIA would need to complete a deal.
Not to mention the pieces the Sox have just fit well with Miami. They have a number of good OFs like Yelich and Ozuna already, but need help at C, SS/2B and like every team, they could use more arms ready to contribute in the majors. The only thing the Sox lack is a prospect starting pitcher of the class of a guy like Bundy or Urias who has truly dominant #1 stuff.
Just out of curiosity, is Xander still untouchable for everyone on here in such an acquisition? Similar question, phrased differently - who is the "worst" player you would deal Xander for?
For the record, I'm not sure I'm there yet in a Stanton trade. But I'd like to hear arguments for the other side.
For the record, I'm not sure I'm there yet in a Stanton trade. But I'd like to hear arguments for the other side.
Heyman on Gresh and Zo.“I think Boston is looking ultimately for Giancarlo Stanton. And hopefully in their mind will package some of their young players to get him,” Heyman told Andy Gresh and Mike Flynn. “I think [Middlebrooks] is a potential tradingchip and he needs to show that he can get back to where he was a couple of years ago and perform at that level. He’s a big, right-handed power hitter that’s cost efficient and has good value as long as he’s producing.” “I do see right field as a spot where Boston — and they’re not the only ones — and the Dodgers will be two of the most aggressive in looking for Giancarlo Stanton to be their right fielder.
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/heyman-on-gresh-zo-red-sox-will-make-aggressive-offseason-run-at-giancarlo-stanton/
RedOctober3829 said:
LA has Kemp until 2019, Crawford until 2017. Ethier until 2017, Pederson and Puig. How do they plan to fit another OF onto their roster?
dump Kemp, keep Pederson out of the deal, and then bench Crawford? I guess it's technically possible, but they'd have to waste tens of millions before even extending Stanton.glennhoffmania said:
Danny_Darwin said:
I'd think Xander has to be the centerpiece for any realistic Stanton offer. You've got to give something to get something.
Given his age, it could be argued that Stanton is the most valuable position player in baseball.
Miami don't need to trade Stanton. They have him for 2015 and 2016 and he's very affordable. They are more of a contender than Boston is at the moment. No disrespect but it seems like the "trade for Stanton" crowd see the Miami Marlins like a MLB franchise version of the Star Wars stormtroopers, who are just there as a plot device to get their a**es kicked by the main characters. They have to actually want to do it.
Trading your top 3 position player while still under team control in 2016 and 2017 for a guy who you're hoping becomes a top 100 position player, and some AAAA guys with two pitches, doesn't seem like something a franchise that has actual baseball in mind (and is not just there to make bad decisions) would want to do.
The Marlins just DFA'd Jacob Turner. His ERA is high but his FIP and xFIP are pretty good. He's 23, taken some real steps forward this year and was the center piece of the Sanchez deal a couple years back.
And he just got DFA'd. I personally think you're giving the Marlins too much credit. They are a cluster fuck of an organization.
And he just got DFA'd. I personally think you're giving the Marlins too much credit. They are a cluster fuck of an organization.
The X Man Cometh said:
This is where I wonder if we might be a better fit for Colorado and Tulowitzki, with Xander+ heading that direction. Tulo would come with a megadeal attached, but only at $20 million / year, rather than whatever Stanton would command in an extension.
Pilgrim said:
Any deal sending Stanton to L.A. would include Pederson going back to Miami, so that eases a little bit of the strain. Even still, they'd need to get rid of one of Kemp, Ethier or Crawford for it to work. Of course, if they move Pederson, Urias and other parts for Stanton, cutting bait on Crawford as sunk cost isn't the worst thing in the world for an organization that is swimming in money "Scrooge McDuck" style. The issue with this approach is you are stuck with either Ethier or Kemp as your center fielder, and defensively that's going to hurt. Even still, Stanton, Kemp/Etheir, Puig is one hell of an offensive outfield.
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