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Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by InstaFace, Jul 13, 2018.
Haven’t listened yet, but Hayward was on Zach Lowe’s pod today.
That's what I thought too. Then I downloaded it, and it was just an ESPN dude doing a reading of Lowe's recent article on Hayward. Lame.
Out tonight with “generalized ankle soreness”. Not ideal....
I don’t want to sound any major alarms (and this certainly may not be a big deal), though I’m sure a year out they would prefer it if this kind of thing was not still happening.
His type of injury often occurs with a fracture within the joint that can have associated cartilage defects (unlike a Paul George situation). Also not that easy to fix perfectly, and any offset at the joint can predispose to early arthritis.
This is planned rest.
It wasn't planned. The fact it came up is why they're being cautious and sitting him.
Stevens admits sitting Hayward not part of the plan, but, "This is something we’ll take game by game, night by night. Obviously with the minutes restriction we’re monitoring it very closely. It’s general soreness, so not overly concerned about it."
It's the 2nd night of a back to back. I'd guess he'll be sitting most of those out for at least a month.
I would feel better if it was.... unfortunately, does not appear planned.
Lousy few hours for injuries around these parts. Please tell me Sale is good...
Boy, this is beginning to feel like Grant Hill: the Orlando Years.
My worry as well....
Lets hope he doesn't need an arthroscopic "clean up" procedure anytime soon.
Hayward did have a procedure done in June which seriously impacted his summer rehab schedule, to the point he had just been cleared for play just before the preseason started. So, while the soreness wasn't necessarily planned, it's probably not unexpected either.
We'll probably know more depending upon how he responds to the day off.
It will be a long process, and nobody likes to hear this, but he may never be back to where he was before. The first looks are encouraging though so fingers crossed.
Brad was adamant prior to the start of the season that while Hayward would be on a minutes restriction he was not going to be sitting out any back to backs unless there were issues in his recovery.
It seems a bit early to be hitting that panic button. Yes, sitting out the second game of a back to back was absolutely not a planned thing, but there seems to be a whole lot of room between the unplanned missing of one game and Grant Hill Orlando.
I'm pretty sure that it is fairly well known that DA et al. observe and factor in players' mental states. Perhaps the cost/benefit to GH's state of mind was worth having him sit out a b2b against the Knicks. Wouldn't be surprised if he and Kyrie are getting "unplanned days" from time to time all season. Since we're blindly speculating...
And maybe he went harder the other night then he thought he’d be able to so he was more sore than he thought. If he looks good tonight then we can calm back down.
Just want him to be healthy and on the floor so that MaMo shoots less.
I thought he looked good tonight, but reading that his ankle still hurts everytime is not great - especially after the unplanned off day.
I’m not a professional athlete, but I broke my ankle in my mid twenties and it was well over 5 years before all intermittent pain fully went away. I had heard similar stores from others before me and didn’t believe them. Soreness is something he’s going to have to manage for a while.
" All at once, Hayward is trying to regain his touch after not playing basketball for a year, trying to regain confidence on his ankle, and trying to regain his familiarity with his teammates. It’s a lot."
Hayward looked really good yesterday
He took a hard hit at one point, landed awkwardly, kinda had a funny look (like "Oh shit!!") got a different look (Like "I Guess I am ok!") and kept playing.
It was a good sign and one that I think a player coming back from injury needs to experience.
The Bucks game was clearly Hayward's best since the injury. His shot was falling, obviously a huge deal, and the Celtics had him initiating the offense from the top of the key and doing great things.
He played 27 minutes, which I think was a season high for him, and he had 18 points (6-11 shooting), 4 rebounds, 5 assists, and set up a few wide open threes that were missed.
His shot looked good. The goaltend play was impressive, awkward and for a moment worrisome. He landed a little awkward probably because he’s still dealing with the mental side some. He had an oh shit look followed by a look of relief on that play which was described above on a play over the weekend I think. Still dealing with the mental aspect for sure but physically overall looks good. Soreness is not a huge surprise at this point.
I love, love, love his ability to penetrate and dish. There was one play where it was he, Irving and Horford playing 3 man ball and they all looked crisp. Stevens is still in building mode.
He is a quarterback on offense and an opportunistic defender. Even if he tops out at 80% of the scorer that he was, the other skills being a lot to this team. I bet that his on off numbers look pretty stupid after 82.
Cross posting from game thread.... probably belongs here more.
I'm sure it being a road B2B had something to do with Hayward sitting, but still having ankle soreness can't be a good sign for him regaining his explosiveness any time soon, can it?
Not totally unexpected (his injury is far far worse and more complicated than the Paul George tibial fracture or Lavert subtalar dislocation), but also not a good sign, I agree.
I assume he has been getting follow up imaging and any easily fixable persistent issues are no longer present, but developing arthritis, bone proliferation, impingement and/or incompetent ligament scarring are common problems that could be long term. It would obviously be more reassuring if Hayward was pain free at this point, more than a year post injury.
There is still definitely time for more improvement, and we may not have much certainly on his bounce back potential until the end of the season. But a high BBIQ point forward with well below average NBA athleticism and some upside as a shooter is an outcome that's still on the table unfortunately (not close to a max player of course).
Can you provide some context for this post? Is there a link?
Light-Tower-Power asked a question in the gamethread and I answered it. I copied and pasted the whole thing but I guess the name tags didn't come through.
Yeah, them's the breaks. There's a not insignificant chance that he's never a max player again, but fortunately his contract comes off the books right when Tatum will be getting a max. At the end of the day, the Celtics turned the #1, #3, and #8 picks into Jayson Tatum, a likely top-10 pick, Jaylen Brown, and Kyrie Irving. That's a high enough batting average to overcome the bad luck of having a max slot go to a guy who might top out as a $15M player, particularly if they can consolidate Brown and/or a pick into an elite player.
I think Hayward is quite close to being a useful NBA player again, and I'm not going to panic, it's just looking more likely that the Celtics Death Star scenario might not happen.
Hayward has a looked a lot more mobile and fluid lately. That could be more confidence than anything physical, but he has shown flashes of the player he was more recently. Especially defensively.
Also, he is reported to having knee soreness, and I get the feeling the team will continue to be extra cautious with him throughout the season. So we can probably stand down from red alert for now.
Tonight will be a good test, since JB has been ruled out.
To match your eye test
Looks good but I’d have to think the numbers are small enough that had someone hit 1 more shot against Hayward the numbers would look like all the rest.
Hayward's rate stats are all around his career norms, outside of usage and shooting. He's actually at a career high in rebounding and steals atm. I'm guessing he's close to back by New Years.
Wouldn't you attribute that in part, if not in large part, to Hayward not having to focus the majority of his energies on the offense running through him this year as it did in Utah where scoring was his primary role? He clearly isn't the same physically yet so those numbers indicating he's not far from his norms appear misleading.
I'm sure some of it is usage but I think he's looked considerably better lately. Plus a month is a lot of time.
He was such a plus athlete prior to the injury that even a reduced version of him can still be really good on defense and crashing the boards, but he still has a long way to go physically.
I’m honestly surprised Ginobili never did this coming off the bench all those years for SA.
Bench vs Starting seems like such an arbitrary distinction for me. "did X coming off the bench" feels akin to pitcher wins in my mind, in terms of delineating something significant.
Sure, because it's usually about minutes played anyway, but it still says something that no one had done it in 25 seasons, and only 3 in 30 minutes or less.
The Greek Freak did the 30/9/8 in 30 minutes a few weeks ago, but has a starter. I can't find the other.
I'm surprised Kevin McHale didn't do the 30/9/8 as a sixth man, but it was probably because #32 was a bit of a black hole with balls that were passed to him down low.
If I did the game finder right, McHale only had 3 games in his career with 8+ assists.
A 20/11/9 game in 1988, then 20/7/10 later that year, and an 18/7/8 in 1986.
The Celtics lost 2 of those 3 games. In 2 seasons we went a combined 124-40, the Celtics lost 2 of 3 when McHale decided to pass the rock.
The 30 minutes or less seems stupid to me. Lebron probably has put up those numbers in under 30 mins a dozen times but it doesn’t show up in the query because he didn’t stop playing at 30 minutes. Everyone who has ever reached those numbers in 30 minutes was kept in the game for 35 or 40 minutes.
Another factor is the Gobert Effect where Hayward's focus wasn't on rebounding the basketball in Utah. We've seen this with Tobias Harris both before and after playing with Drummond along with other similar comp pairings that can skew a players individual numbers.
With low post moves like he had, and a career FG% over 55%, it usually didnt make sense to kick it out.
Correct. In most cases the analytics didn't make sense to shoot 3's back then. In '85-'86 there were only 8 teams that shot 3's over 28.4%......and 5 teams that year didn't reach 21%! It's funny but 2 of those 5 teams, Utah and Atlanta, had winning records lol.
Bird never hit more than 98 threes in a season. Wonder what he’d hit now.