General Offseason Thread.

changer591

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That was a great video.

Hope we can see Rondo the coach soon in the NBA.
Did anyone watch the full interview? I think Rondo came off horribly in parts of it. He is an obviously intelligent player, but holy crap is he high on his own supply. You didn't even need to read in-between the lines to see why he wasn't as well liked as he could have been by his own teammates and fans. He essentially puts the blame on everyone but himself (except for injuries) for things not working out.
Kind of sucks, because 90% of the interview was very insightful, but then he starts saying that he's a top 10 overall player in his prime is when I lose him.
 

ALiveH

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NBA players are pretty terrible at evaluating their own talent & value. But, he's only slightly off saying he was top-10 overall at his peak. In his peak year 2008-09 he was knocking on the door of top-10 per some of the advanced stats like WS, WS/48, BPM and VORP. He was between #12 and #14 on all of these that year.

Disclaimer: I didn't listen to the interview so i don't know exactly what he said.
 

PRabbit

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The guy was clearly buying into his own hype. You can't claim to be a top 10 player when he didn't become even an 'average' shooter until after he left Boston.

Top 20 maybe.
 

Euclis20

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Top 10 is more than pushing it, but he was the 2nd best player on the court in the 2012 ECF with Miami, a series that featured 6 HOFers all still playing at an all-star level (except for maybe Ray, who was still a very good player). That year he was 3rd team all-NBA, 2nd team all defense, first among point guards in rebounds and he led the league in both assists and triple doubles. He couldn't shoot at all, but even though this was barely a decade ago, it just didn't matter as much. I'll say that he broke the top 20 at his peak.
 

Jimbodandy

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Top 10 is more than pushing it, but he was the 2nd best player on the court in the 2012 ECF with Miami, a series that featured 6 HOFers all still playing at an all-star level (except for maybe Ray, who was still a very good player). That year he was 3rd team all-NBA, 2nd team all defense, first among point guards in rebounds and he led the league in both assists and triple doubles. He couldn't shoot at all, but even though this was barely a decade ago, it just didn't matter as much. I'll say that he broke the top 20 at his peak.
I just don't see any legit argument for Rondo breaking the top 20 at his peak. Reputational 3rd team all-NBA and being first among point guards in rebounds doesn't mean anything. The assists were nice.

He was a super useful starter on a team with legit scorers who weren't primary ballhandlers. Loved the guy on those Celtics teams. Just looking at BR, his BPM was 48th in 2012, WS 62nd, VORP 45th. That doesn't really say much, but you'd think that something would bubble a top20 player up a little. The guy led the league in APG and still was 48th in a box score metric.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Good risk by the Lakers, but damn the dude is such a tease. Elite physical ability, but his basketball iq is severely lacking, and he’s just a meh locker room guy, at best lol.
Lakers are one of the few teams where this could work. They don't have any other donkeys while LeBron is there to lead and keep him in check. I wonder how much he'll buy into a limited role in another contract year. Bron has good history in getting the best out of these types though.....who else could have turned JR Smith into both a World Champion and collegiate golfer?

Yeah, he's a meh locker room guy at best like Big Baby was maybe a little chubby lol.
 

ManicCompression

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It'll be some feat if he continues his streak of playing for under .500 teams. He hasn't tasted winning since he left UNLV.
 

bosockboy

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Lakers are one of the few teams where this could work. They don't have any other donkeys while LeBron is there to lead and keep him in check. I wonder how much he'll buy into a limited role in another contract year. Bron has good history in getting the best out of these types though.....who else could have turned JR Smith into both a World Champion and collegiate golfer?

Yeah, he's a meh locker room guy at best like Big Baby was maybe a little chubby lol.
Seems like the default for players like him, is if you’re not getting your money, go where the women and good weather is and reset in a year.
 

Auger34

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Did anyone watch the full interview? I think Rondo came off horribly in parts of it. He is an obviously intelligent player, but holy crap is he high on his own supply. You didn't even need to read in-between the lines to see why he wasn't as well liked as he could have been by his own teammates and fans. He essentially puts the blame on everyone but himself (except for injuries) for things not working out.
Kind of sucks, because 90% of the interview was very insightful, but then he starts saying that he's a top 10 overall player in his prime is when I lose him.
Isn't it pretty well known that Rondo is a giant prick off the court?
 

Tony C

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Seems like the default for players like him, is if you’re not getting your money, go where the women and good weather is and reset in a year.
Wood had a tweet about finally fulfilling his dream of being a Laker. Um...dude, you've been a FA a bunch of times, and even this year you held off signing the Laker deal until you'd exhausted all other possibilities. So...really? A dream deferred....I guess. :) All good that the Lakers are his best opportunity -- and they are: both a great signing for them and a great place for Wood to rebuild his value -- but do we really the silly rhetoric....
 

PedroKsBambino

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Lakers are one of the few teams where this could work. They don't have any other donkeys while LeBron is there to lead and keep him in check. I wonder how much he'll buy into a limited role in another contract year. Bron has good history in getting the best out of these types though.....who else could have turned JR Smith into both a World Champion and collegiate golfer?

Yeah, he's a meh locker room guy at best like Big Baby was maybe a little chubby lol.
I agree, one of the benefits of having Lebron is you can gamble on guys like this with the hope Lebron can drive him to do the right things, and if it fails, know that they also won't really impact the lockerroom. Good gamble for Lakers.

What changed for Lakers at or before last year's deadline---they had a multi-year run under Pelinka of unimaginative, dumb, and often missed-the-details management and suddenly got both effective and a little creative at the deadline last year, continuing into this offseason. I have to think something about their decision making process changed as it's been really stark difference.

And an annoying one.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Is Embiid going to destroy his other ACL flopping this time?

I mean, I guess get the work if you can, but I'd have a hard time playing next to that guy again.

Probably a nothing signing in any case, unless he has a huge rebound.
 

Jakarta

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Wood had a tweet about finally fulfilling his dream of being a Laker. Um...dude, you've been a FA a bunch of times, and even this year you held off signing the Laker deal until you'd exhausted all other possibilities. So...really? A dream deferred....I guess. :) All good that the Lakers are his best opportunity -- and they are: both a great signing for them and a great place for Wood to rebuild his value -- but do we really the silly rhetoric....
Sort of like this:
https://youtube.com/shorts/ytt89od_7O4?si=67G7bufIKJOpBMdc
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is Embiid going to destroy his other ACL flopping this time?

I mean, I guess get the work if you can, but I'd have a hard time playing next to that guy again.

Probably a nothing signing in any case, unless he has a huge rebound.
I doubt he had many suitors and only those who have had a history with Green. 36, off ACL, essentially a missed 35 season, and having lost a step athletically in his 34 year.....sounds like more of a Blake Griffin vet depth insurance w the league paying most of his salary.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I agree, one of the benefits of having Lebron is you can gamble on guys like this with the hope Lebron can drive him to do the right things, and if it fails, know that they also won't really impact the lockerroom. Good gamble for Lakers.

What changed for Lakers at or before last year's deadline---they had a multi-year run under Pelinka of unimaginative, dumb, and often missed-the-details management and suddenly got both effective and a little creative at the deadline last year, continuing into this offseason. I have to think something about their decision making process changed as it's been really stark difference.

And an annoying one.
I'm less bullish on Wood, especially on a Lebron's team but the skills plus the Lakers roster needs makes it a worthwhile gamble.

Regarding Pelinka, I think the criticism he/their front office gets here is a bit much and I absolutely despise the Lakers. Building a roster around late career LeBron and AD seems daunting given the all of the parameters, financial and otherwise.
 

Euclis20

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Building a roster around late career LeBron and AD seems daunting given the all of the parameters, financial and otherwise.
It really does, more so than one might have thought a few years ago. Lebron is still hitting the 99th percentile of what could reasonably be expected of him every year, the problem is Anthony Davis. When he went to LA he seemed on the precipice of being the best player in the league. He was 24 in 2018, his last full year in NO and he finished 3rd in the MVP voting while making 1st team all-NBA and defense. At the time, he was definitely ahead of Giannis (who was 23, 6th in MVP voting and 2nd team all-NBA). He was supposed to lead this team in Lebron's twilight.

He just turned 30 in March - he should still be in the annual Giannis/Embiid/Jokic conversation for best big man in the league. Instead, due to a combination of injury, age related decline and whatever is happening in his head, he hasn't made an all-NBA or all-defense team in three years. It's a hard to really knock him given that he did win a title there and was incredible in the bubble, but he has not reached his full potential and may never do so (though he did just have his 2nd best season of the last 5 years). As we're about to find out, it's really hard to build around two max players that aren't both legit superstars.
 

InstaFace

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I'm just over the spin for guys like Harden.

"He turned down the supermax from the Rockets!!! He's not selfish!!!"
You're gonna love the latest from Ramona Shelburne (I know, I know) on the Harden affair. She seems to have gotten at least one of Morey and Harden to talk directly, off-the-record. It definitely paints Harden as a whiner and sulker who takes things personally and is never satisfied with where he is, doesn't know what he wants (e.g. he wanted Doc Rivers who had the credibility to push him hard, until it turned out he didn't want that), and can't build the kind of chemistry he needs to be successful.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38335993/inside-feud-james-harden-philadelphia-76ers

The scene that sticks with me is the NBA Awards Ceremony in 2018, when Harden was named MVP and looked like he couldn't have given less of a shit about the whole thing. OK OK, I'll stand up here, hand me my damn award, I'm out. It was just the most bizarre reaction for someone for whom it was a crowning individual achievement of his career, in my eyes. He couldn't even crack a smile, even as the presenter waxed poetic about his skills.

At some level, I "get" the sports superstar who is a total egotist, who works as hard as he does for as long as he has so that he can be shining in the bright lights as everyone tells him he's wonderful - it's not what I'd want to become, personally, but it's an archetype we've seen enough that it makes sense to us. Frankly, "Kyrie Irving being an egotist who's also crazy and thinks he knows everything about everything and drives teammates nuts" is a trope that goes beyond sports, and even if we love to hate him, we "know his kind", don't we? Or the Tom Brady class of player, who is so absurdly competitive that they will do literally anything to win, including driving their teammates too hard and making enemies because nobody cares as much as he does (though some, like KG, make far more friends than enemies). They're all different expressions of neuroticism, distinct but familiar flavors of it. But the way Harden's mind works simply doesn't make sense to me. I just can't grasp what drives him or what he's after. It's like "college students learning about intimate relationships" in terms of the self-sabotage, self-centeredness, capriciousness and amount of stupidity... except that he's over 30 and has been subsumed by the basketball world for nearly all his life. There are no surprises for him anymore, or shouldn't be, anyway. Unless, it seems, you opt into an option year of your contract, shocking your employers, and then demand a trade they didn't expect to have to make - then it's all someone else's fault.
 

Euclis20

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You're gonna love the latest from Ramona Shelburne (I know, I know) on the Harden affair. She seems to have gotten at least one of Morey and Harden to talk directly, off-the-record. It definitely paints Harden as a whiner and sulker who takes things personally and is never satisfied with where he is, doesn't know what he wants (e.g. he wanted Doc Rivers who had the credibility to push him hard, until it turned out he didn't want that), and can't build the kind of chemistry he needs to be successful.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38335993/inside-feud-james-harden-philadelphia-76ers

The scene that sticks with me is the NBA Awards Ceremony in 2018, when Harden was named MVP and looked like he couldn't have given less of a shit about the whole thing. OK OK, I'll stand up here, hand me my damn award, I'm out. It was just the most bizarre reaction for someone for whom it was a crowning individual achievement of his career, in my eyes. He couldn't even crack a smile, even as the presenter waxed poetic about his skills.

At some level, I "get" the sports superstar who is a total egotist, who works as hard as he does for as long as he has so that he can be shining in the bright lights as everyone tells him he's wonderful - it's not what I'd want to become, personally, but it's an archetype we've seen enough that it makes sense to us. Frankly, "Kyrie Irving being an egotist who's also crazy and thinks he knows everything about everything and drives teammates nuts" is a trope that goes beyond sports, and even if we love to hate him, we "know his kind", don't we? Or the Tom Brady class of player, who is so absurdly competitive that they will do literally anything to win, including driving their teammates too hard and making enemies because nobody cares as much as he does (though some, like KG, make far more friends than enemies). They're all different expressions of neuroticism, distinct but familiar flavors of it. But the way Harden's mind works simply doesn't make sense to me. I just can't grasp what drives him or what he's after. It's like "college students learning about intimate relationships" in terms of the self-sabotage, self-centeredness, capriciousness and amount of stupidity... except that he's over 30 and has been subsumed by the basketball world for nearly all his life. There are no surprises for him anymore, or shouldn't be, anyway. Unless, it seems, you opt into an option year of your contract, shocking your employers, and then demand a trade they didn't expect to have to make - then it's all someone else's fault.
I don't take the bolded as necessarily a major indictment of Harden and his attitude. On the surface, it's not all that different than Jokic never giving a shit about the all-star game, barely cracking a smile when winning the title, and being openly pissed about having to attend the parade.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Thanks for posting the article. Sounds like Shelbourne got it from someone in Harden's camp.

I just can't grasp what drives him or what he's after.
It's entirely possible that Haden doesn't know what drives him or what he's after in the Big Picture.

Superstar athletes are all crazy to some degree. I mean they have to be - spending hours in a gym by yourself working on moves, lifting weights, watching film - no normal person would want to do that, much less be able to do that. Add into that the fact that many of these athletes have had everything thrown at them since they were a little kid.

Some athletes may put on, for lack of a better term, a better "mask" than others. Others know that it just pays to not say anything (MJ). And some of them, probably to the detriment of the rest of the world, have no filter.

I think Harden wanted to be the best and wanted to be acknowledged as the best. That's a hard thing to let go of even as people get better. But part of being "best" is being paid like it; another part is winning a championship - but on his terms, not on some one else's.

It seems pretty clear that Harden really wants a ring but he's not going to do it on Morey's terms. It will be interesting to see how far he goes to force the trade or whether he will find a way to rationalize this entire situation and stay with PHI.
 

chilidawg

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It seems pretty clear that Harden really wants a ring but he's not going to do it on Morey's terms. It will be interesting to see how far he goes to force the trade or whether he will find a way to rationalize this entire situation and stay with PHI.
Harden may think he wants a ring, but it sure seems like he doesn't want to work within a team structure that would facilitate that.
 

Montana Fan

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Harden may think he wants a ring, but it sure seems like he doesn't want to work within a team structure that would facilitate that.
Harden can take his $36 million dollar salary and go down to the local jeweler and buy a ring. Otherwise I see no way that cancer is going to actually earn one.
 

ManicCompression

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To undermine his own star player, though? I don't know his history like you do but that does seem far more unusual.
What history do you have to know? The guy is the most image conscious GM in the league. He gets a free pass from the media because of the access he provides. That's not a secret or anything. He'd throw anyone under the bus to launder his own reputation.
 

InstaFace

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What history do you have to know? The guy is the most image conscious GM in the league. He gets a free pass from the media because of the access he provides. That's not a secret or anything. He'd throw anyone under the bus to launder his own reputation.
OK but has he ever thrown Harden or Joel Embiid (or in Houston, Chris Paul) under the bus like this? Just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, because the players and their agents, they know where those quotes and stories must've come from.
 

ManicCompression

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OK but has he ever thrown Harden or Joel Embiid (or in Houston, Chris Paul) under the bus like this? Just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, because the players and their agents, they know where those quotes and stories must've come from.
I would put good money on him being the guy behind the "Morey didn't want Russell Westbrook, that was all Harden and Fertitta, nope Morey had nothing to do with it, and he was forced to do that terrible trade" story. He's obviously not saying this stuff on the record (does anyone talk on the record anymore?) but somehow all of the news and analysis about Philly continues to be shockingly Daryl friendly considering his teams have not gotten any further than the Colangelo/Elton Brand/Brett Brown teams.
 

nighthob

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OK but has he ever thrown Harden or Joel Embiid (or in Houston, Chris Paul) under the bus like this? Just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, because the players and their agents, they know where those quotes and stories must've come from.
Morey throws people under busses, places the blame for his mistakes on other people, and tells any lie he has to to protect his reputation. The only time you think of taking his word for something is if the other party involved is a working politician.
 

bakahump

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Damn you for making me defend Harden.

As other have said Athletes at these levels are crazy. I can see another crazy athlete archetype that simply wants to compete. They dont care about awards....and the money isnt even that important, beyond competing to make the most (which the NBA has done a good job of neutering. You make the max and you make the max and you make the max).

So maybe what drives him is being better then guy opposite him every night. The Awards dont mean shit to him.....I mean for the most part they are arbitrary whims of people we on sosh regularly deride. Championships might not even matter as he "realizes" that there is so much he cant control (Embiid is hurt again, But I was awesome. GM made a bad signing, but I was awesome, Coach called a bad play, But I was awesome. Teammate missed an open layup with .2 left.....but I was awesome)

Now is he better then the guy across from him every night any more? Probably not every night. And maybe that is eating away at him. So he lashes out. And tries to control other things (Opt in.....demand trade). Its capricious no doubt but I can see the path.
I can also see how his gambling/Vegas stuff fits in here "I want to beat the house/other gamblers every time!"

I guess the real question is does this kind of attitude (if indeed this is an accurate assessment of Harden.....cause ya know...none of us actually know him) conducive to winning? Proof is in the pudding and thus far it hasnt been. But we do become more self aware as we age and maybe Harden will demand a trade, take a lesser role and contribute to a championship some day.
 

ManicCompression

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I like it - NBA teams have been downright antagonistic to their fanbases for way too long. Yes, some unintended consequences might result where teams fake injuries, but this is something the league needs to address, particularly with the current TV deal coming up.

They're trying to ask their partners for MORE money, despite ratings getting lower and the cable bundle on its last legs. Telling ESPN and Turner to pound sand if they're pissed about being forced to broadcast Clippers games with no George and Leonard or Lakers games with no Lebron and AD probably isn't a a smart move.
 

Euclis20

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How common is it (outside of LA and the last couple weeks of the season) for teams to rest multiple all-star level players in the same game?

I like it - NBA teams have been downright antagonistic to their fanbases for way too long. Yes, some unintended consequences might result where teams fake injuries, but this is something the league needs to address, particularly with the current TV deal coming up.

They're trying to ask their partners for MORE money, despite ratings getting lower and the cable bundle on its last legs. Telling ESPN and Turner to pound sand if they're pissed about being forced to broadcast Clippers games with no George and Leonard or Lakers games with no Lebron and AD probably isn't a a smart move.
Agreed with this. Most teams will just invent injuries (and it's not really inventing them, everyone is banged up basically for the entire season. Tatum played 74 games, but he probably could've sat at any point and just used the wrist as a real excuse), but I like the league attacking this from multiple angles.
 

Cellar-Door

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OK but has he ever thrown Harden or Joel Embiid (or in Houston, Chris Paul) under the bus like this? Just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, because the players and their agents, they know where those quotes and stories must've come from.
He throws the guys he can under the bus. He's got Embiid now, so Harden is expendable. The key to being an elite bus thrower (Doc is one) is picking the guy that the fans want to blame and never picking the guy the fans want to support.
 

Swedgin

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OK but has he ever thrown Harden or Joel Embiid (or in Houston, Chris Paul) under the bus like this? Just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, because the players and their agents, they know where those quotes and stories must've come from.
I think Ramona's new colleague Roc Divers is a likely source for much of the ani-Harden stuff in the piece. Darrell has little incentive to trash Harden now. Post-trade sure, but now he needs to credibly needs to convince teams that he does not need to move Harden now. Yes, he can try to sell we are comfortable with discomfort line, but a far simpler path (and one that makes sense for Harden's long term interest as well) is to have him come back and play well. This story does not help Morey accomplish either aim.

As to the Westbrook narrative, that's not new and was around at the time the trade happened.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Swedgin

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They have proven that they cannot do so without damaging the NBA brand by sitting star players during prime time telecasts. First and foremost. Silver has to protect the shield.
Yeah, this is a classic collective action problem. I do not know if this is the right solution, but you can't rely on teams to address because their short term self-interest is often at odds with what benefits the league (and that team) in the long run.