Game 4 @DAL Goat Thread
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
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Mac Jones.
It begins and ends with him.
He doesn't have plus size, speed or arm strength, you need at least one of those to be an effective NFL QB.
I was in his camp and felt he got a raw deal last year; this year, a new OC and I thought he'd up his game.
He's not upping anything, he's going in the wrong direction.
If he's the answer, I don't want to know the question.
This organization is in deep shit; for all the fans out there who started following the team in 2001, this is what they used to look like from 1968 through1975 and 1989 through 1992.
Not good.
It begins and ends with him.
He doesn't have plus size, speed or arm strength, you need at least one of those to be an effective NFL QB.
I was in his camp and felt he got a raw deal last year; this year, a new OC and I thought he'd up his game.
He's not upping anything, he's going in the wrong direction.
If he's the answer, I don't want to know the question.
This organization is in deep shit; for all the fans out there who started following the team in 2001, this is what they used to look like from 1968 through1975 and 1989 through 1992.
Not good.
It's really all Mac today. Just noncompetitive. Can't really goat the defense when the offense spots the other team 14 points and you're down literally your top 3 and arguably 4th best CBs.
Bonus goat for Onwenu, penalties were ridiculous.
Bonus goat for Onwenu, penalties were ridiculous.
Not only that, but we've seen Bill's in-game decisions and game plans have a direct impact on wins, both during and after the Brady era. Neither achieves the same level of success without the other.
You are right, denigrating his contributions to successes past is ridiculous.
My intent, not communicated effectively at all, is to say I don't think what he's doing works for today's offenses (and thus todays operation of a football team) at a fundamental level going all the way to back to evaluating skill positions. I'm glad we have Pop, but why do we need a 6th round hail mary for a spark? I think Bill's basic method of operations with the offense has given the Patriots almost zero chance of success from jump in two of three seasons since, whether for Patricia/Judge or Cam Newton, and this year is in the balance. I don't give him a freebie for Cam not being able to throw, some do. I think he could have crafted Mac into an 8-12 qb but that seems a long way off.
You are right though, it shouldn't take away from his past success. More accurately, I shouldn't.
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Agree that there's no reason to somehow subtract from Bill's past successes with the team as both coach and GM, for which there is truly no peer in the NFL. People saying he was never that great at either obviously do not know WTF they are talking about (or are just venting, which is OK).
As for Bill the GM in this day and age, there is a lot to question the results of his attempting to rebuild the offense post-Brady. The results matter at the end of the day. As for Bill the coach, I personally believe he is doing the best with what Bill the GM gave him, but that's obviously up for debate.
As for Bill the GM in this day and age, there is a lot to question the results of his attempting to rebuild the offense post-Brady. The results matter at the end of the day. As for Bill the coach, I personally believe he is doing the best with what Bill the GM gave him, but that's obviously up for debate.
They averaged 2.3 yards per carry, couldn’t push enough on a sneak and the run blocking was shit. I don’t blame him for kicking the FG. Analytics can say what it wants to but this team today was not converting that most likely.
I can't find the thread (Has BB lost his fastball ring a bell?) but I believe it's time to move on not only from Mac but BB as well. Too many poor drafts and FA signings to address clear offensive short comings. Mac has a plethora of issues and I'm not sure they're fixable.
Yeah I think so. I have a really bad case of it, I wanted him before draft and was psyched when we got him. It's getting harder and harder to pull the wool over my own eyes.
Yeah I think 99% of us are now ready for the Mac era to end, but does today move the needle on BB for anyone? Probably worthy of its own thread.
I was optimistic heading into this year, but with Judon and Gonzo potentially out for extended periods of time, the talent on that side of the ball took a monster hit today. Like, there’s a conceivable case where they only win 3-4 games now. But then I see names like Washington and Denver and NYJ and NO and LV on the schedule and there’s still a path to 7-9 wins, even though I don’t know what that gets you. I’m not really rooting for them to totally suck, but there’s a chance this could go downhill fast because their top defensive playmaker may be done and their CB1-4 are now out.
It's perfectly consistent to praise BB's methods and philosophy and the success it had for literal decades going well before Brady's time, and to question whether they are successful today. It's the people who equate a harsh evaluation of the present with a denigration of the past that need a wake-up call.
I’m not seeing how we beat Las Vegas (Josh, Jacobi and Garoppalo are going to be motivated) or NO (Olave is gonna get 200yd receiving on this injured set of corners) or Wash (looked decent today).
I do think they will beat Denver, and the Jets a second time
Belichick will be 72 next year. Time to transition to a new way of doing things with a younger guy running the operation.
I think about it like this, best case scenario given the current roster construction, is probably 2025. Belichick will be 73 years old then.
They are going to need a new coach/Director of Football Operations soon anyway, might as well identify who they want and bring him in this off-season.
Open the checkbook for Ben Johnson, let him pick his QB, and give it a whirl. Can't be worse than what we're seeing now.
1. Mac Jones. He actually came out throwing the ball well. The rest of his game sucked. On the third down play in the red zone, it was third and <1 yard and Dallas had no one on the nose. How on earth does any QB not sneak it there? He was spooked and seeing ghosts and trying to play hero ball. I think his arm would be fine if he was capable of making good reads and decisions. All the progress on that front he showed during weeks 1-2 went into the toilet.
2. BB and the coahcing staff
3. Mike Onwenu. Three killer penalities early.
2. BB and the coahcing staff
3. Mike Onwenu. Three killer penalities early.
Why is "destined to be an average starting QB" the dream you had that was dashed in the first place?
I think the hope many of us have for Mac is that he ends up somewhere in the top 10-15 QBs, which is broadly average - maybe that's what Koufax was referring to.
Just to change pace since today's blowout is reason to bitch about whatever, didn't we think that Christian Barmore was going to be much for af an impact player than he seems to be so far this year? And while we were pretty much in agreement that this year's draft was good, only Gonzalez has stood out so far. Douglas and the punter look like decent picks I guess but even heralded Keion White's numbers are underwhelming
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I had this discussion about Barmore with a friend of mine today. Seems really disappointing.
Barmore is the strange case of a guy who's consistently graded super highly in pressure rate and pass rush win rate and yet never jumps out at me on the field, but it might have a lot to do with me being a simpleton who doesn't understand the game enough.
I don’t comment much in the Patriots threads but I’m in the group that thought Mac was getting a raw deal last season. He still has no catching talent and a horrible OL, but an average QB would be able to squeeze some juice out of that. He looks lost out there.
One more game to look competent to me seems fair.
One more game to look competent to me seems fair.
Mac seems to have the unfortunate combination of very mediocre tools and low confidence. He fell apart after the fumble, much like he would last year if there was a sack or a pick. When he’s afraid to make a mistake…it leads to bigger mistakes.
I think he could be decent if he could keep it together-but once there’s some adversity he plays scared.
QBs in this league make really bad, dumb plays sometimes-but good ones have the confidence to bounce back on the next series.
I think he could be decent if he could keep it together-but once there’s some adversity he plays scared.
QBs in this league make really bad, dumb plays sometimes-but good ones have the confidence to bounce back on the next series.
Mac is going to have a good (not great but good) game this coming week, the Pats are going to win something like 20-17, and they’ll be 2-3 with a very real chance to get to .500 the next week.
Ouch
1) They manufactured it for some perceived advantage
2) Yes
3) Hurry Up puts refs on heels too
4) Could be-if you legitimately saw something
Also remember Mac basically stuffed this into the ground and was still talking about needing to get lower in the post game.
His last tush push went high and he got the epic face wash followed by a body slam(deserved) which is apparently still in his head.
Here is the offensive line performance:
In true pass sets they allowed pressure on basically 2/3rds of the snaps. Overall in 34 total pass block snaps Mac had 18 pressures. The interior guys sucked and RT sucked.
Oh and both Andrews and Mafi had penalties on these snaps. Mac was responsible for 2 hurries as well.
Mac was under pressure 50% of the time. Folks that is smash the red panic button bad. He was seeing ghosts because he was rattled. Hard to get into a rhythm was you are under fire 50% of your snaps.
There is so much animosity for Mac today and I get it. He was the first goat of the game I listed playing stupid ass Josh Allen hero ball in his body. But the OL situation is completely rotten. Andrews is declining, Onwenu had a bad day, and Mafi sucks right now just like most of us who watched him thought he would this year especially in pass pro.
This is the worst or 2nd worst pass pro line in all of the NFL right now. We have a pocket passer. Defenses are taking away quick hits, and are keyed to play at shallow depth and smash underneath routes. They are giving you 1:1s outside. And we have 1 dude who is average to honestly slightly below average at winning them, Parker.
In true pass sets they allowed pressure on basically 2/3rds of the snaps. Overall in 34 total pass block snaps Mac had 18 pressures. The interior guys sucked and RT sucked.
Oh and both Andrews and Mafi had penalties on these snaps. Mac was responsible for 2 hurries as well.
Mac was under pressure 50% of the time. Folks that is smash the red panic button bad. He was seeing ghosts because he was rattled. Hard to get into a rhythm was you are under fire 50% of your snaps.
There is so much animosity for Mac today and I get it. He was the first goat of the game I listed playing stupid ass Josh Allen hero ball in his body. But the OL situation is completely rotten. Andrews is declining, Onwenu had a bad day, and Mafi sucks right now just like most of us who watched him thought he would this year especially in pass pro.
This is the worst or 2nd worst pass pro line in all of the NFL right now. We have a pocket passer. Defenses are taking away quick hits, and are keyed to play at shallow depth and smash underneath routes. They are giving you 1:1s outside. And we have 1 dude who is average to honestly slightly below average at winning them, Parker.
If there was one play not to try to copy around the league it was the Hurts rugby rush, people seem to forget Hurts can squat 600lbs and is built like a tank in the lower body. I've seen countless teams try it and fail with their 6'4 220 lb lanky QBs this season. If your QB can't push himself this is a recipe for disaster. Much better chance doing it the Brady way and catching the DL off-guard to some extent vs. declaring for all the world this is a QB sneak.
It is a tough question because it depends on multiple factors. On average it is about 30-33% but that doesn't adjust for teams that try and scheme better around it. Like a Bruce Arians team might have a 33-35% pass pressure rate but a quicker-game team like the Patriots should be in the 20-25% rate. A lot of QBs are responsible for their own pressures too and Mac is one of the best at not doing that. So Justin Fields might have a 40% rate when it should be 35% or something.
Well one positive... Trent Brown has been good this year and was pretty good yesterday despite everything collasping around him
More likely explanation is that Onwenu is injured and probably past his prime; Andrews is old; Lowe was never good, but was a scrap heap pickup so not expected to be; and the rookie Mafi is at best a developmental prospect. And Trent Brown is no longer the Trent Brown of 2018.
Onwenu is 25 and in his fourth season. He’s seven months older than Cole Strange.
I've seen tackles have a couple of decent years and then fade. And the injury is something that happened last season; red flag if it's still affecting him, which appears to be the case.
Probably not. Nobody has been healthy enough to even practice, they're just throwing out different combos every week since camp opened.
They probably thought they would start the year with...
Brown/Strange/Andrews/Onwenwu/Reiff (or McDermott)
One guy was released after a season ending injury, Reiff never even made it to the season, Onwenwu has been hurt, Andrews has been hurt, Strange is still hurt, Brown got dinged.
The mediocre line they thought they had has barely even practiced together and they're running out deep bench pieces and guys they traded for right before the season who were PS bound.
If they still look this bad when vaguely healthy through like week 9 or 10 I'll be concerned.
Why should we expect them to be even vaguely healthy by week 9-10, though? Do players typically get healthier as the season goes on?
Yeah, seems like OLmen in particular just wear down over the course of a season. And that’s when they start the season healthy.
I worry that we haven’t seen the worst of this unit.
Reiff is back soon, it wasn't "they'll be healthy week 9-10" but rather everyone but Strange (maybe) should be back next week, and hopefully they get a bit of stability as the season moves on. In recent years our lines have generally gotten better as the year goes on, last year and the year before. Lines with a lot of turnover or injury just need reps together at some point to have a chance.
Reiff was kicked inside to guard due to bad performance in camp and preseason. He was playing deep into preseason games and could’ve been a cut candidate if he didn’t get injured.
The line is a Trent Brown injury away from being a bottom five unit.
I think it was Lazar that suggested that Strange is hurt because he’s a small body type up against the beasts in the NFL and he has trouble anchoring in pass pro. That tracks and isn’t likely to change much since he hasn’t bulked up or anything.
For all the talk about BB having a particular type of O-lineman that he likes for the program that was just such an outlier pick.
For all the talk about BB having a particular type of O-lineman that he likes for the program that was just such an outlier pick.
After taking a few days regroup after the shitty time Sunday was for Boston sports my thoughts are:
1) Mac Jones. The circumstances were not ideal with the amount of pressure (as cited about 50%+ on drop backs) but it is totally unacceptable to give the other team 14 points. Just can't do it - I don't care how bad the line and receivers are playing. I'm officially concerned about his future as an NFL QB if he is going to continue to be this careless. His game has to be accuracy, on time, and great decisions. He cannot be reckless like a Josh Allen.
2) The offensive line. Enough has been said but its been really really bad.
3) Playcalling. Looked like some real opportunities for the running game especially when backed up in the endzone.
4) Karma. Ok - not a thing but some real shit times with Gonzalez and Judon being hurt.
1) Mac Jones. The circumstances were not ideal with the amount of pressure (as cited about 50%+ on drop backs) but it is totally unacceptable to give the other team 14 points. Just can't do it - I don't care how bad the line and receivers are playing. I'm officially concerned about his future as an NFL QB if he is going to continue to be this careless. His game has to be accuracy, on time, and great decisions. He cannot be reckless like a Josh Allen.
2) The offensive line. Enough has been said but its been really really bad.
3) Playcalling. Looked like some real opportunities for the running game especially when backed up in the endzone.
4) Karma. Ok - not a thing but some real shit times with Gonzalez and Judon being hurt.
Not to belabor the point but Lazar has looked at the film from the Dallas game and the team just does not have the offensive talent to succeed. As mentioned, Douglas should be seeing more snaps and maybe Thornton flashes but this group is not very good and 2024 looks potentially worse with the TEs unsigned.
You don't think they're a bottom five unit right now?
I can't imagine them not being bottom 3 right now.