Edes: JBJ down to AAA, Betts up

[RedOctober3829]

Gordon Edes ‏@GordonEdes 2m
Sox send down Jackie Bradley Jr, call up Mookie Betts

 
https://twitter.com/GordonEdes/status/501431325350711296

 

[Sprowl]

Jackie gets two weeks worth of at-bats against inferior pitchers to restore his confidence, then comes back when rosters expand. Betts and Holt split centerfield duties.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

They waited until they wouldn't have to burn an option to send Bradley down, which makes perfect sense if their primary objective is to get a jump start on seeing what Mookie can do over the last 5-6 weeks of the season.  There's not a lot of benefit for Bradley in being sent down other than he gets to keep playing everyday for the next 2-3 weeks rather than ride pine on the big league roster.

 

[DJnVa]

One thing that sucks about JBJ's struggles is that it might cost him a Gold Glove. I know it doesn't matter in the long run, but the kid was ridiculous out there and with all his offensive struggles it would have been nice to see him rewarded.

 

[soxhop411]

They waited until they wouldn't have to burn an option to send Bradley down, which makes perfect sense if their primary objective is to get a jump start on seeing what Mookie can do over the last 5-6 weeks of the season.  There's not a lot of benefit for Bradley in being sent down other than he gets to keep playing everyday for the next 2-3 weeks rather than ride pine on the big league roster.

Dave Joppie will work with JBJ to fix his swing I'm guessing

 

[Green Monster]

Making room for Rusney Castillo??

 

[caminante11]

One thing that sucks about JBJ's struggles is that it might cost him a Gold Glove. I know it doesn't matter in the long run, but the kid was ridiculous out there and with all his offensive struggles it would have been nice to see him rewarded.

 
If he can become decent offensively, he will win many more Gold Gloves.

 

[Laser Show]

Interesting, especially in light of Farrell's comment this weekend that (paraphrasing) "Jackie and Mookie can't coexist"

 

[OptimusPapi]

Interesting, especially in light of Farrell's comment this weekend that (paraphrasing) "Jackie and Mookie can't coexist"

Can we expand on this?

 

[saintnick912]

And the other comment that "if a young guy isn't playing in 4 games a week he needs to be down in AAA getting at bats", again paraphrasing.

 

[mauidano]

Kind of a head scratcher. So if Mookie isn't knocking the cover off the ball, then what? This is a last place team.

 

[bosockboy]

This is Mookie's audition for the 2015 CF job.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

They waited until they wouldn't have to burn an option to send Bradley down, which makes perfect sense if their primary objective is to get a jump start on seeing what Mookie can do over the last 5-6 weeks of the season.  There's not a lot of benefit for Bradley in being sent down other than he gets to keep playing everyday for the next 2-3 weeks rather than ride pine on the big league roster.

 
Pretty smart. 
 
Speier echoes this idea:
 
In sending Bradley down now, it’s possible that the Sox could allow him to catch his breath in Triple-A before returning to the roster in September. If that happens, then by virtue of a minor league assignment of fewer than 20 days, the team would not have used one of his two remaining options through this late-season demotion.

 

[Plympton91]

Jackie gets two weeks worth of at-bats against inferior pitchers to restore his confidence, then comes back when rosters expand. Betts and Holt split centerfield duties.

Mookie starts 6 out of every 7, with Holt getting the other one. In the other 6, Holt gets 2 or 3 games at 3B, 1 at SS, and plays RF against LH.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Kind of a head scratcher. So if Mookie isn't knocking the cover off the ball, then what? This is a last place team.

Little I've seen him, Mookie's got a nice swing, and a really powerful turn for a smallish guy. If he struggles for as long as X and JBJ have, I'm going to be really bummed about our position player prospects.

 

[nattysez]

That said, the timing of the move to Triple-A is slightly unexpected, given that Bradley had shown offensive improvement in recent games, going 5-for-16 with a pair of walks and just four strikeouts in his last 20 plate appearances after snapping an 0-for-35 spell. Bradley will be in the lineup as the center fielder in Pawtucket on Monday night.
 

 

In sending Bradley down now, it’s possible that the Sox could allow him to catch his breath in Triple-A before returning to the roster in September. If that happens, then by virtue of a minor league assignment of fewer than 20 days, the team would not have used one of his two remaining options through this late-season demotion.
 

 
Speier calls it unexpected, but then explains why the timing makes sense.
 
I like the fact that JBJ is able to go down having started to hit a little -- it may actually be better for his confidence than having an 0-fer looming over him upon his return to MLB.  That said, I really wish they'd done this a month ago.
 
I'd love to see the context around Farrell's statements about the two not being able to co-exist, as that certainly makes it sound like one or the other is going to get dealt in the off-season.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier  40s
 
 
Sox had laid groundwork for this scenario. Betts started exclusively in CF (10Gs) and DH (1G) since being sent down

 

[TomRicardo]

 
Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier  40s
 
 
Sox had laid groundwork for this scenario. Betts started exclusively in CF (10Gs) and DH (1G) since being sent down
 

 
So Ortiz is in trouble too.  Got it.

 

[snowmanny]

Salem's Lot had this at the end of yesterday's game thread.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

Good idea to give Mookie his audition against legit MLB starters, too. 
 
 
LAA, Sea, Tor, TB before the call-ups
NYY, TB, Tor, Bal, KC, Pitt, Bal, TB, NYY after the call-ups. Not like all those teams let off the gas (KC and Pitt especially), but could get spot-starty. 

 

[Kliq]

Despite his incredible suckage at the plate this year, JBJ doesn't really have to make that big of a jump to be a solid every-day player for the Sox. If he could just hit .235, he could be a starter here for a long time. He can be world class in CF, steal a few bases, contribute what he can on offense, and he can have a good career. He doesn't have to be this cornerstone, franchise player, but he isn't that far away from being a decent player in the majors.

 

[Laser Show]

Can we expand on this?

Just that they're players with similar skill sets - athletic outfielders, strong defensively, on-base abilities, etc. - but the way he said it seemed, at least to me that there's only room for one of them next year, and whoever that is is earmarked for center field.
 
Although, I may be extrapolating too much from that and he could have merely been talking about the next 6 weeks.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Just that they're players with similar skill sets - athletic outfielders, strong defensively, on-base abilities, etc. - but the way he said it seemed, at least to me that there's only room for one of them next year, and whoever that is is earmarked for center field.
 
Although, I may be extrapolating too much from that and he could have merely been talking about the next 6 weeks.

 
I think he's talking about the next six weeks (and arguably the last two weeks since Betts was last sent down as well).  If they feel Betts' best chance to make the club in 2015 is as an outfielder, it makes sense that it would be down to him and JBJ in center since they seem to have the corners more than covered.  The thing is, Betts is an infielder as well, so he could theoretically be in the mix at 3B or even SS.  He gives the team a ton of flexibility as far as making moves in the off-season goes.  I doubt they're prepared to lock him down to one position for next year until they see how the off-season shakes out.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This is Mookie's audition for the 2015 CF job.

Exactly. I called for this two weeks ago I did not realize at the time how his option played in the timing.

Young players are getting opportunities they haven't had before to win jobs in '15 (Vazquez, Betts, young SP) while others are given additional chances they otherwise may not have received if we were contending (WMB at third, X at SS). This is an extended opportunity that the Red Sox don't often have and they are certainly taking advantage of this playing time for the prospects.

 

[Plympton91]

Despite his incredible suckage at the plate this year, JBJ doesn't really have to make that big of a jump to be a solid every-day player for the Sox. If he could just hit .235, he could be a starter here for a long time. He can be world class in CF, steal a few bases, contribute what he can on offense, and he can have a good career. He doesn't have to be this cornerstone, franchise player, but he isn't that far away from being a decent player in the majors.

As long as he's batting 9th, and able to lay down sacrifice bunts and hit beind the runner in the few spots where they're called for. But, you can't have him hit 235 on a team with 2 or 3 other 650 OPS players, because then one of those guys end up hitting 7th, as was the case far too often this season.

 

[Super Nomario]

What do we expect from Mookie Betts?
 
He's hitting .335/.417/.503 in AAA (211 PA) with a .380 BABIP, 12.3 BB%, 14.2 K%
He's hitting .244/.279/.366 in MLB (44 PA) with a .257 BABIP, 2.3 BB%, 11.4 K%
ZIPS projects him at .242/.307/.362 with a .266 BABIP, 8.2 BB%, 13.4 K%
Steamer projects him at .280/.341/.411 with a .305 BABIP, 8.2 BB%, 12.3 K%
 
Minor league BABIPs need to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt (see this series for more), and how much we regress Mookie's AAA BABIP has a huge impact on what we expect offensively. I'm guessing given his speed and contact ability that he probably has some degree of real BABIP skill, but his production is going to vary wildly depending on how he does on balls in play. The good thing is he still looks he'll be a decent bat even with just a league-average BABIP (as in the Steamer line).

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Despite his incredible suckage at the plate this year, JBJ doesn't really have to make that big of a jump to be a solid every-day player for the Sox. If he could just hit .235, he could be a starter here for a long time. He can be world class in CF, steal a few bases, contribute what he can on offense, and he can have a good career. He doesn't have to be this cornerstone, franchise player, but he isn't that far away from being a decent player in the majors.

I think most recognize this to be accurate as well. However if Betts can provide enough of JBJ's defense along with plus offense and shows to be the better overall player it gives us more flexibility in structuring the club moving forward.

It's essentially a tryout while JBJ gets some humble pie while being able to take a step back without the spotlight on him. Let's be honest this has had to have been an extremely stressful year for JBJ (and X) and allowing him time away from Boston could be good for him.

 

[Laser Show]

 
I think he's talking about the next six weeks (and arguably the last two weeks since Betts was last sent down as well).  If they feel Betts' best chance to make the club in 2015 is as an outfielder, it makes sense that it would be down to him and JBJ in center since they seem to have the corners more than covered.  The thing is, Betts is an infielder as well, so he could theoretically be in the mix at 3B or even SS.  He gives the team a ton of flexibility as far as making moves in the off-season goes.  I doubt they're prepared to lock him down to one position for next year until they see how the off-season shakes out.

Yea this makes much more sense, I just couldn't help taking Farrell's statement as ominous regarding JBJ.

 

[twothousandone]

Despite his incredible suckage at the plate this year, JBJ doesn't really have to make that big of a jump to be a solid every-day player for the Sox. If he could just hit .235, he could be a starter here for a long time. He can be world class in CF, steal a few bases, contribute what he can on offense, and he can have a good career. He doesn't have to be this cornerstone, franchise player, but he isn't that far away from being a decent player in the majors.

Jimy Williams, of course, would have him as the lead-off batter.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

BoSox have the good manners to send in reinforcements for PawSox run at the IL title after having taken away Mookie.  Very respectful.

 

[trekfan55]

 https://twitter.com/FieldingBible/status/501470592995184640
 
Echonig that he needs to hit at a decent, not torrid pace to be a major league player. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
I think he's talking about the next six weeks (and arguably the last two weeks since Betts was last sent down as well).  If they feel Betts' best chance to make the club in 2015 is as an outfielder, it makes sense that it would be down to him and JBJ in center since they seem to have the corners more than covered.  The thing is, Betts is an infielder as well, so he could theoretically be in the mix at 3B or even SS.  He gives the team a ton of flexibility as far as making moves in the off-season goes.  I doubt they're prepared to lock him down to one position for next year until they see how the off-season shakes out.

 
 
I wonder what it would take for the organization to re-consider having Betts get a crack at SS and Bogaerts playing elsewhere.

 

[Stitch01]

As long as they are both playing every day, Im sort of agnostic who is in AAA and who is in the big leagues since Farrell is not going to give them both every day at bats if they are both on the every day roster.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Short of a brief stint at Lowell his first professional season (13 games) they've never played him at SS otherwise in almost 300 games in the minors. I don't think they view him as a SS for whatever reason that may be.

 
Right, but that decision was made with Iglesias on board and Bogaerts and Marrero in the pipeline. Things are looking at least a bit different now.

 

[E5 Yaz]

GordonEdes Gordon Edes
JBJ's .290 slugging pct lowest among all major league qualifiers Sox want to see a more compact swing better 2-strike approach
 
GordonEdes Gordon Edes
Farrell said JBJ understood demotion when they met with him.

 

[NDame616]

I'm sure everyone here is right so excuse my ignorance, but why is it not burning an option?

 

[E5 Yaz]

I'm sure everyone here is right so excuse my ignorance, but why is it not burning an option?

 
Fron Speier above:
 

In sending Bradley down now, it’s possible that the Sox could allow him to catch his breath in Triple-A before returning to the roster in September. If that happens, then by virtue of a minor league assignment of fewer than 20 days, the team would not have used one of his two remaining options through this late-season demotion.
 

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I'm sure everyone here is right so excuse my ignorance, but why is it not burning an option?

 

• Once a player has been placed on a team's 40-man roster, a team has 3 option years on that player.
  A player is considered to have used one of those three option years when he spends at least 20 days in the minors in any of those 3 seasons.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

 
Right, but that decision was made with Iglesias on board and Bogaerts and Marrero in the pipeline. Things are looking at least a bit different now.

He played SS in high school, but when he committed to Tennessee he was reportedly going as a second baseman.   For whatever reason--size, maybe--scouts and coaches don't seem to see him fitting the SS mold.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I think that's revisionist history. Teams don't act like that. You leave a guy at his most capable spot on the defensive spectrum as long as you can and worry about moving him off it later if need be. Either you move him down or you have a nice trade chip.

They didn't move a 19/20 yo at Low A off of SS because of prospects ahead of him. They moved him because they don't view him as a SS, be it for his arm strength or whatever. If they honestly thought like that - to move him because of prospects ahead if him - then they probably wouldn't have moved him to 2B given that that position is covers for the foreseeable future.

 
???  You think Betts was moved from 2B to CF was because he couldn't play 2B?

 

[uncannymanny]

 
???  You think Betts was moved from 2B to CF was because he couldn't play 2B?

I think he's saying exactly the opposite. They kept him at 2B as long as they could regardless of the lack of opportunity in front of him.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Who was the SS playing alongside Betts during major parts of 2012 and 2013?
 
 
Edit: I am not suggesting a mistake was made by anyone. The Sox do have additional years of data and further physical & mental development by all these guys now that can be factored in to any re-consideration.

 

[Plympton91]

Didn't Marrero start last year as the SS at Salem? Also, before 2013, Mookie wasn't really MOOKIE. He was just another guy trying to put it all together. So, it's not like they probably put a lot of thought into where he'd best fit in the majors.

I would like to see a reporter ask someone in the Sox organization whether they've considered 3b.

I also after having witnessed the David Ecstein fiasco and subsequent world championship with him at SS for the Angels, kind of always give a big belly laugh at definitive statements that a talented 2bman can't move to SS.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

People don't like him at SS or Third because he has a very difficult time with the throws, not from an arm strength issue but from an accuracy issue.
 
His arm in the outfield has looked average at worse with flashes of above average.  He has the range to play 3rd, 2nd, RF, LF and CF. 

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
A large combination of Vinicio and Marerro, as well as a smattering of random guys that aren't anybody. I understand your point, but if the reason was because there was another guy on the same team, I think it's easily avoided by promoting/not promoting. If they though Betts was a SS and wanted to play him there, they could have not promoted him to Salem in 2013 where Marerro was. At the very least, don't you think he would have gotten even a game or two at SS over the last couple years? 
 

 
Betts' offensive production may have forced his promotions to some extent. A valid point with you last question, though I wonder about some amount of inertia setting in. Plus, managers hate rotating shortstops (maybe they should, though, in the minors to boost trade chip value).

 

[LostinNJ]

It looks like we may have a lot of guys who can become capable major leaguers, even contributors to a championship team, but maybe not stars. The problem is you can't win a championship with a team full of guys like that. Just as you can't win with a rotation full of 3's and 4's, you can't win with a lineup full of competent players -- you need some that stand out. For the Betts/Bradley debate, it looks like we are saying Bradley can make himself a competent major league contributor if he can take a couple of steps forward as a hitter, whereas a lot of us seem to think Betts can become something better than that -- he can be a standout performer.
 
It's too bad, because we've been anticipating Bradley's arrival for a while, but if Farrell is right that there isn't room in this town for both of them, Betts is the better bet.
 
I expect one of them gets traded this winter. I assume they'll be looking to trade quantity for quality, breadth for depth -- lots of competence for one big star.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

It looks like we may have a lot of guys who can become capable major leaguers, even contributors to a championship team, but maybe not stars. The problem is you can't win a championship with a team full of guys like that. Just as you can't win with a rotation full of 3's and 4's, you can't win with a lineup full of competent players -- you need some that stand out. For the Betts/Bradley debate, it looks like we are saying Bradley can make himself a competent major league contributor if he can take a couple of steps forward as a hitter, whereas a lot of us seem to think Betts can become something better than that -- he can be a standout performer.
 
It's too bad, because we've been anticipating Bradley's arrival for a while, but if Farrell is right that there isn't room in this town for both of them, Betts is the better bet.
 
I expect one of them gets traded this winter. I assume they'll be looking to trade quantity for quality, breadth for depth -- lots of competence for one big star.

 
If Bradley can make himself a competent major league hitter, then he would be a well above average  player once his defense is factored in.  

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

People don't like him at SS or Third because he has a very difficult time with the throws, not from an arm strength issue but from an accuracy issue.
 
His arm in the outfield has looked average at worse with flashes of above average.  He has the range to play 3rd, 2nd, RF, LF and CF.

Yes. In Mookie's AAP thread - http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/79002-mookie-betts/ - the second post states that his arm strength moved him off SS.

 

[Pumpsie]

Also, let's keep in mind that Mookie Betts is 21 years old and Jackie Bradley Jr. is 24.  That's a big difference. 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
If Bradley can make himself a competent major league hitter, then he would be a well above average  player once his defense is factored in.  

Do we know if Bradley has the necessary work ethic to do this? I vaguely recall hearing how JBJ didn't believe in video work when he first came up claiming he was a "see it and hit" type of batter. The last time I heard this come from a Red Sox prospect was Donnie Sadler.