Did Tom Brady Ruin Us?

caesarbear · Oct 24, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Brady, who, obviously, is the gold standard of QB play.

Or as some other might say, absolute dogshit that got carried by the defense.

Bergs · Oct 24, 2023

caesarbear said:
Or as some other might say, absolute dogshit that got carried by the defense.

Link?

JohnnyTheBone · Oct 24, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Here's the math:

- 19 seasons

I'd eliminate 2008 and call it an even 18 seasons. Otherwise, another world-class effort, BJ.

nattysez · Oct 24, 2023

I think it was Dan LeBatard who said last week that Tom Brady never in his entire career took a snap with his team eliminated from playoff contention.

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Oct 24, 2023

What is the inevitable comparison to Brady? I've never seen anyone seriously compare Mac to Brady. I've never seen anyone suggest even remotely that our team may get another Tom Brady, or that Mac should be judged at all based on any kind of Brady standard. BBTL is weird, but I feel like we've all got a pretty good sense that comparing Mac to Brady or even thinking in those terms is not really meaningful. I think Mac is compared to hypothetical good quarterback that maybe we could get. Or Kirk Cousins. Or Ryan Tannehill.

I don't feel like Brady ruined my Patriots fandom in the slightest. I thought 2020-22 was fine. Maybe even a bit better than I expected for the post-Tom Brady era. 2023 is much worse. I think most of the discussion on this board in one way or another is about how to avoid continuing to play like we've played so far this year, and avoiding having it drag on for years like this. Maybe we'll get better this year. Maybe next year. Maybe 2025. Not sure. Hopefully that's all we're talking about.

All I really want for the Patriots in the near to medium future is for them to be one of the 8 or 9 AFC teams that's fighting for the playoffs, playing entertaining football, and is running itself efficiently, so that if the stars line up and they catch a good draft pack, get unusually good production out of cost-controlled players, and avoid injury, that they might find themselves in the position to win some playoff games, and are positioned most years to potentially catch that kind of lightening in a bottle. I want to be a team that has the possibility of a 12 win season in it if things go right, and am prepared to accept a 6 win season along the way if the trend is positive.

Steelers, Bills, Ravens, Vikings, Cowboys. If we could have their last decade with meaningful management and smart decisions so that we could occasionally have a Philly or Cincy or San Francisco year, that would be great. I'm not expecting to be the next quasi-dynasty like the Chiefs any time soon, unless we hit the power ball with a QB.

rodderick · Oct 24, 2023

I think this is overstated. It would be true if the fans were this pissy and whiny as the Patriots went 11-6 and lost in the Divisional Round with, say, the 9th best QB in football. As of now I believe fans in general have been pretty fair. The vibe in 2021 was great, people were hopeful, then there was the 2022 mess with the coaching staff brought people down and then they had a 1-5 start this year, so expectedly it got more restless. I don't buy into this notion that Patriots fans have been unreasonable in their judgment of the team/QB and are approaching the current team with Brady-era expectations.

InstaFace · Oct 24, 2023

BaseballJones said:
With that kind of success, with the individual success of Tom Brady, has it ruined us as Patriots fans? I've heard it said that once you fly first class, you'll never go back to coach. Well, I don't make enough money to fly first class so I wouldn't know, but this is kind of what it might feel like, yes? We had the very best the NFL could ever offer - both as an individual player and the team success. It's really, really hard to go back, right?

I'd take it a step further and say that the sublime excellence of Brady (and Belichick) has made it extremely difficult for me to appreciate watching just about any other NFL game since then, because I came to recognize when teams would be beating each other or giving away an edge with this bit of time management or that bit of lack of risk-taking or tactical adjustment. Yes it's frustrating to watch Mac not be as good as TB12, but it's not specific to him - just about everybody isn't anywhere close to being Tom Brady, and those who are (including Mahomes) I'm actively rooting against anyway.

It's such a chore to be a fan of the NFL, between all the drama on-field and off-field, venal league management, CTE risk and suing or ignoring the lives they've destroyed in their wake, ever-increasing commercials just to watch the games, and trying to charge ever-more for the privilege, too. Paying that mental tax, to ignore all the cognitive dissonance and just enjoy the competition, has certainly seemed far less of a worthwhile trade since Tom Brady retired. Would the same have been true if we had just had average-to-good QB play over the last two decades? Yeah, I guess, probably - but then again, I'd have been far less likely to watch and care in the first place. Nobody besides Tom Brady beats Seattle in SB49 or Atlanta in SB51 or KC in the 2018 AFCCG. Maybe a backup could've gone to the SB with the 2004 or 2007 squads, or a different roll of the dice could've gone their way in 2010. But for much of the team's success, his unique ability to avoid errors and make instant and inerrant decisions and put throws on a dime was the difference between greatness and pretty-goodness for his team, and I'm not even sure Bill Belichick could've made title-worthy teams out of run of the mill QB play. So yeah, we're spoiled, even ruined - but for me at least, that was the whole point in watching in the first place. It's what draws you in. The game - every game, every pro sport - is a venue to show off the talents of the most extraordinary players, and most others are just kinda there to frame it for us. If Pedro never pitches for us, I probably never become a Red Sox fan. But the game is there to highlight the greatness of players like him and Brady.

4 6 3 DP · Oct 24, 2023

I think the same general group of fans does not hold the current Celtics to the standard of the 83-86 Celtics or the 08-10 Celtics, for example. I struggle to think that Patriot fans wouldn't appreciate a team that played in big games and played well.

brandonchristensen · Oct 24, 2023

I think he gave us something special that no other fanbase will ever experience.

And now that he's gone, it's easier to appreciate it in its totality. I actually felt like during the second half of the run (especially pre-Seahawks SB win) there was so much pressure on Brady to continue winning. He'd come close, but all we saw was failure. The stress of winning wasn't even about the team, it was about Tom's legacy.

When he moved on, I was able to enjoy the Patriots (or not enjoy them) with about 1/10000000th of the stress associated to Brady games.

So I am thankful for what he gave us, and the fact that it's over and it's so bad now makes me appreciate what we had even more.

Cellar-Door · Oct 24, 2023

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
What is the inevitable comparison to Brady? I've never seen anyone seriously compare Mac to Brady. I've never seen anyone suggest even remotely that our team may get another Tom Brady, or that Mac should be judged at all based on any kind of Brady standard. BBTL is weird, but I feel like we've all got a pretty good sense that comparing Mac to Brady or even thinking in those terms is not really meaningful. I think Mac is compared to hypothetical good quarterback that maybe we could get. Or Kirk Cousins. Or Ryan Tannehill.

Literally every Mac discussion inevitably has someone say "well compared to 2001 Brady".

4 6 3 DP said:
I think the same general group of fans does not hold the current Celtics to the standard of the 83-86 Celtics or the 08-10 Celtics, for example. I struggle to think that Patriot fans wouldn't appreciate a team that played in big games and played well.

THe current Celtics are really good, but also probably not the right comp. The right comp is probably "what standard did Celtics fans hold the early 90s teams to" though even that isn't probably fully correct because as good as the 80s celtics were, they weren't as dominant as the Patriots, and the decline was more gradual since the team didn't dominate through the end of the stars' time here like the Patriots did.

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Oct 24, 2023

Cellar-Door said:
Literally every Mac discussion inevitably has someone say "well compared to 2001 Brady".

Well, that's different. If that's what BJ was saying, ok. Comparing Mac to any one year in any QB's career and asking whether he could blossom or deteriorate into whatever that QB was is a different question that dovetails with the pages and pages (and pages and pages) of discussion that we've had on Mac.

But I didn't think that was the question being asked -- I think it was holding Mac up against the Brady yardstick as we understand it now, since BJ's whole point is to talk about Brady's career.

rodderick · Oct 24, 2023

The only context in which I see Brady mentioned in regards to Mac is in "if you give Brady this surrounding cast he couldn't do anything with it either" or "it's not like dropping Tom Brady into this offense would make a significant difference" arguments.

Bergs · Oct 24, 2023

I think the vast majority of "fans" really don't know much about the game, and thus fail to understand a lot of factors that go into success at this level.

I also think that 20 years of Brady have trained Pats fans to be utterly and completely unrealistic about what is a reasonable expectation for QB play in the NFL.

Frankly, NO ONE is that good right now. Mahomes puts up crazy numbers, but he is a weird outlier. I keep hearing about other QBs, and then I watch one and think "he's not very good at all." When I am thinking that about the best QBs in the league, I'm not the one who is correct; I can't be. So in that sense, I would agree with the OP's question: from a sense of perspective and rationality as fans, TB12 may indeed have - if not "ruined" me - detrimentally impacted my own perceptions/expectations relative to reality.

8slim · Oct 24, 2023

I've heard it said that once you fly first class, you'll never go back to coach. Well, I don't make enough money to fly first class so I wouldn't know, but this is kind of what it might feel like, yes?

I flew first class for work, and I fly coach with my family. Of course you can go back. One can appreciate the experience, but not expect it to be the only experience you have forever going forward. I say this because I think it relates to my expectation as a Pats fans.

We'll never have what we did from 2001-2019. Never again. That was a once in a lifetime experience, and I'm not going to spend my remaining years on Earth getting frustrated that we can't achieve it again. However, we can be what the Pats were from 1994 to 1998 or from 1976-1986. That being, an entertaining, competitive football team. A team that can get to the playoffs some years, maybe win a game or 2, or maybe even make a run to a SB. Not 4 times in 5 years, but once in a great while.

CreightonGubanich · Oct 24, 2023

There's something to this - and the original point was that it's really hard to go back. I think that's true, but I don't know that it necessarily hinders objective analysis. The only parallel I can draw as a sports fan is to Pedro. Like Brady, Pedro was as good at what he did as anyone to ever do it. I'll never watch a pitcher as good as Peak Pedro. It definitely impacted how much I enjoyed watching future Boston "aces"; I love Jon Lester, but he was never Pedro. I absolutely miss that time when every start was an event - when him throwing up 8 IP with 2 hits and 15K's was just as likely as not. I don't think it hurt my ability to objectively judge the performance of Lester, or Beckett, or Price, or Wade Miley, or anyone else, but there's always that "yeah, but Pedro..." that might never fully go away. My grandkids are going to hate hearing me talk about Pedro.

It's the same with Brady, and for me, where I feel it the most is when it comes time for that gotta-have-it drive. That expectation that Brady would figure it out, even if he was having a bad game, that he'd find a way when the team needed it the most. That feeling of "here we go again" when Brady got the ball back down a score with only a few minutes left to play. Or even more specifically: that moment when the other team is driving, up a score late in the fourth, and the drive stalls; now they're in 3rd and long, and the camera cuts over to Brady, tossing warmup passes. Helmet off, eyes blacked, face emotionless...and you just know. It's over. The other team is screwed.

Seeing Mac orchestrate a game winning drive last week was great. It was also pleasantly surprising. And that's just what it's like for fans of virtually every other team.

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Oct 24, 2023

Bergs said:
I think the vast majority of "fans" really don't know much about the game, and thus fail to understand a lot of factors that go into success at this level.

I also think that 20 years of Brady have trained Pats fans to be utterly and completely unrealistic about what is a reasonable expectation for QB play in the NFL.

Frankly, NO ONE is that good right now. Mahomes puts up crazy numbers, but he is a weird outlier. I keep hearing about other QBs, and then I watch one and think "he's not very good at all." When I am thinking that about the best QBs in the league, I'm not the one who is correct; I can't be. So in that sense, I would agree with the OP's question: from a sense of perspective and rationality as fans, TB12 may indeed have - if not "ruined" me - detrimentally impacted my own perceptions/expectations relative to reality.

Yeah, interesting points. I guess it's easier for me to put it in baseball terms. What I really missed from the 2023 Red Sox was the sense of excitement about having something or someone on the team that did or does something really well. I went to a few Diamondback games this year, and it was fun as hell, because they had this identity where you could watch the other team get frustrated by the fact that no matter where they hit the ball, there was someone there to catch it. Or the relentless double stealing and baserunning. The Red Sox didn't have that. Nor did they have a top flight starter, where you could starts until he pitches, or a great bat where you counted hitters until his spot was due up. Even a two outcome .197 hitter like Schwarber at least gives fans something to look forward to, to get excited about. We had none of that this year. Yoshida early on a little bit. Rafi maybe. When you don't have that, it just becomes all about the wins and losses. That's the only measurement that gets you excited. Maybe that's the bottom line anyway, but it's extremely rare to win a championship. It's the other stuff that makes we try to watch a least some of 162 games.

But that's what I'm looking for in a QB. Just a guy who can make exciting plays. Who knows how to run a 2:00 drill down in the fourth quarter. Who gives you the feeling that anything can happen and that he can do magic at times. By that measure, there are a bunch of QBs in the league that I really like and think are fun and could root for. Allen, Tua, Lawrence, even Mayfield at times this year. Rodgers when he's healthy. Even Dak and Russell Wilson. Bunch of others. I agree that if you're judging these guys on the Brady/Mahomes yardstick, you'll focus on the negative. And that's too bad. If that's really what we're doing with Mac, then I accept the premise of the original post, but I could happy watch one of those guys.

Though I think Insta's point is a good one. Not having an elite QB does make it harder to overlook some of the bullshit in the NFL.

8slim · Oct 24, 2023

BaseballJones said:
This is basically my hope, and what is a realistic hope for ANY fan of ANY franchise. Be generally good, hopefully fairly consistently good, and make deep runs in the playoffs from time to time, and hopefully get a shot at a Lombardi here and there.

Yup, and that's why three of the 4 post-Brady years have been so frustrating. Not that we haven't gone back to the SB, but that we've largely been without hope of being good.

RS2004foreever · Oct 24, 2023

I split time between NE and Florida.
Yes, Boston fans are spoiled. If your team makes the conference championship in any year that team has had a GREAT Year. A memorable one. If you are REALLY lucky maybe your team makes a couple of conference championship games in a 4 or 5 year span.
In football anything more than that almost always means a first ballot HOF QB. Mahomes. Brady. Montana. For most franchises that happens once in 50 years. Most franchises have NEVER had a QB like that despite picking first or second in the draft multiple times.

Then too the WAY Brady did it was completely different from most modern QB's. Brady did it by incredible presence in the pocket. He wasn't close to the athlete Mahomes is or that frankly most of the other top tier QB's of the last 10 years have been.

The same is true of the Red Sox by the way. 4 titles since '04 yet people boo the owner.

Edited to add: You could argue that the importance of the QB in modern football makes it easier to create dynasties than in other sports. For a long time this wasn't true given the salary cap - but the Chiefs have made 5 straight AFC Championships.

ilol@u · Oct 24, 2023

In my opinion, Tom Brady's run with the Patriots absolutely *spoiled* our fan base.

There are discussions about seriously firing Bill Belichick, who (in my opinion) was the main reason for three of the Superbowl wins with his defensive gameplans (Greatest Show On Turf, Holding Down McNabb/TO, Destroying Goff/Gurley Rams) and was a large part of winning before Tom Brady turned into Tom Fucking Brady around 2007. Bill Belichick is a HOF coach and a HOF GM.

I believe the fan base standard is so incredibly high - that even them making the playoffs in Mac's rookie season was a failure, because they got smoked by the Buffalo Bills. The Patriots for the most part in the last few years have been in NFL purgatory - an average team that will beat the bottom dwellers but will get destroyed by an above average team.

As 8slim said, it's important to appreciate the experience, but have proper standards that it won't be the only/standard experience moving forward.

Going from Tom Brady to Mac Jones is like having steak from Abe & Louie's and then eating a McRib from McDonalds. It's like dating a 10/10 partner, to dating a 4/10 partner. The frustrating part isn't necessarily comparing Tom Brady to Mac Jones - it's comparing Mac Jones to the other QBs around the league.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, thank you for all the statistics and information BaseballJones - great opening post.

Hoya81 · Oct 24, 2023

It's a little eerie how similar the runs were between the Pats and the 49er's from '81-'02

- 22 seasons (2 strike shortened)
- 18 playoffs
- 14 first place finishes in the NFCW
- 19 seasons with 10+ wins
- 11 seasons with 12+ wins
- 10 trips to the NFCCG
- 5 trips to the Super Bowl
- 5 Super Bowl championships
- total win-loss of 239-104-1 (.695)
- average season: 10.8 wins and 4.7 losses (jumps to 11.9/4.0 if you toss out the '82 strike and the two down years after Young retired)

All the more impressive considering that Montana was injured a ton between '86-'92, missing 48 games including all of '91 and most of the '92 seasons. Even Young seen as largely unproven quantity until he won the MVP in '92 (career record before that season: 15-24).

They went into the wilderness for about a decade with a series of bad coaches before Harbaugh righted the ship, before another mini-rut with Tomsula and Chip Kelly and now set up again for another extended run.

JohnnyTheBone · Oct 24, 2023

BaseballJones said:
True. I should have left 2008 out of the math. It makes Brady look even better, of course.

Love the math. 18 years, 9 Super Bowls, 6 championships. Made it half the time, won it a third.

chilidawg · Oct 24, 2023

caesarbear said:
Or as some other might say, absolute dogshit that got carried by the defense.

Awesome. Let's turn this thread into endless pointless bickering as well.

Deathofthebambino · Oct 24, 2023

Hoya81 said:
It's a little eerie how similar the runs were between the Pats and the 49er's from '81-'02
View attachment 72924
- 22 seasons (2 strike shortened)
- 18 playoffs
- 14 first place finishes in the NFCW
- 19 seasons with 10+ wins
- 11 seasons with 12+ wins
- 10 trips to the NFCCG
- 5 trips to the Super Bowl
- 5 Super Bowl championships
- total win-loss of 239-104-1 (.695)
- average season: 10.8 wins and 4.7 losses (jumps to 11.9/4.0 if you toss out the '82 strike and the two down years after Young retired)

All the more impressive considering that Montana was injured a ton between '86-'92, missing 48 games including all of '91 and most of the '92 seasons. Even Young seen as largely unproven quantity until he won the MVP in '92 (career record before that season: 15-24).

They went into the wilderness for about a decade with a series of bad coaches before Harbaugh righted the ship, before another mini-rut with Tomsula and Chip Kelly and now set up again for another extended run.

This came up yesterday.

In the final regular season game of 1990, Joe Montana was benched after going 10/20 for 88 yards and an interception. He was replaced by Young, who finished the game 15/24 for 205 yards and 2 fourth quarter touchdowns to come from behind and beat the Vikings.

Montana then started and they won the first playoff game, and then Montana got hurt against the Giants with Jeff Hostetler at QB, and the Niners lost that game 15-13. Young came in and only threw one pass (a 25 yard completion). Montana then missed the entire 1991 season with the injury. Young played, got hurt some but played well. They gave Young the job in 1992, and Montana didn't play until the final game of the season in the 2nd half (playoff seeding was wrapped) and went 15/21 for 126 and 2 touchdowns. Young played in the playoffs that year, and Montana left for KC.

But that Vikings game was really the beginning of the end for Joe. This obviously came up as the Vikings/Niners were getting ready to meet up last night. That Vikings team that nearly beat SF was 6-10 that year, but I believe it was that game in which SF realized what they had with Young waiting in the wings.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Oct 24, 2023

It bears noting that the Niners were running out the clock in that NFCCG and were moving pretty well downfield before Roger Craig fumbled, giving the ball back to the Giants for their GW FG as time expired. I've always wondered how things would have played out had the Niners won that game and Young started that SB.

GeorgeCostanza · Oct 24, 2023

CreightonGubanich said:
It's the same with Brady, and for me, where I feel it the most is when it comes time for that gotta-have-it drive. That expectation that Brady would figure it out, even if he was having a bad game, that he'd find a way when the team needed it the most. That feeling of "here we go again" when Brady got the ball back down a score with only a few minutes left to play. Or even more specifically: that moment when the other team is driving, up a score late in the fourth, and the drive stalls; now they're in 3rd and long, and the camera cuts over to Brady, tossing warmup passes. Helmet off, eyes blacked, face emotionless...and you just know. It's over. The other team is screwed.

Not gonna lie, I got a little chubbed up reading this paragraph.

rodderick · Oct 24, 2023

CreightonGubanich said:
There's something to this - and the original point was that it's really hard to go back. I think that's true, but I don't know that it necessarily hinders objective analysis. The only parallel I can draw as a sports fan is to Pedro. Like Brady, Pedro was as good at what he did as anyone to ever do it. I'll never watch a pitcher as good as Peak Pedro. It definitely impacted how much I enjoyed watching future Boston "aces"; I love Jon Lester, but he was never Pedro. I absolutely miss that time when every start was an event - when him throwing up 8 IP with 2 hits and 15K's was just as likely as not. I don't think it hurt my ability to objectively judge the performance of Lester, or Beckett, or Price, or Wade Miley, or anyone else, but there's always that "yeah, but Pedro..." that might never fully go away. My grandkids are going to hate hearing me talk about Pedro.

It's the same with Brady, and for me, where I feel it the most is when it comes time for that gotta-have-it drive. That expectation that Brady would figure it out, even if he was having a bad game, that he'd find a way when the team needed it the most. That feeling of "here we go again" when Brady got the ball back down a score with only a few minutes left to play. Or even more specifically: that moment when the other team is driving, up a score late in the fourth, and the drive stalls; now they're in 3rd and long, and the camera cuts over to Brady, tossing warmup passes. Helmet off, eyes blacked, face emotionless...and you just know. It's over. The other team is screwed.

Seeing Mac orchestrate a game winning drive last week was great. It was also pleasantly surprising. And that's just what it's like for fans of virtually every other team.

It's kinda crazy how you could sometimes look at Brady's face/demeanor and know the game was going to turn. Or sometimes the Pats would be in an offensive funk and he'd do something like run three yards to convert a third down and do the first down sign while fired up and you'd just know it was another game from that point on. I always thought this stuff was complete hogwash and players just played the game and that's it, you can't just play better because you want to, it's all about execution. But the guy absolutely had a hidden gear he would turn on when the situation called for it, it was some shonen anime shit.

InstaFace · Oct 24, 2023

rodderick said:
It's kinda crazy how you could sometimes look at Brady's face/demeanor and know the game was going to turn. Or sometimes the Pats would be in an offensive funk and he'd do something like run three yards to convert a third down and do the first down sign while fired up and you'd just know it was another game from that point on. I always thought this stuff was complete hogwash and players just played the game and that's it, you can't just play better because you want to, it's all about execution. But the guy absolutely had a hidden gear he would turn on when the situation called for it, it was some shonen anime shit.

This exact scenario is the precise thing that made watching Serena Williams so captivating for me. She might be screwing around and not reading something right, or have a certain shot that she was mis-hitting a bunch, or maybe her footwork was screwy somehow. And she'd start yelling at herself. And at some point there might be some big point where she just got FURIOUS with herself, and emerge from a timeout or whatever with a stone-cold-killer look on her face. And you could tell she was mustering greater focus, was just processing the game at a higher level now. Kicked it into 5th gear. And suddenly the shots were getting hit with greater power and precision, or she was disguising better, or the serve was landing and before it wasn't. Just the damndest thing. Did she need that 5th gear in every early-round match? Absolutely not, her B-game was quite often good enough. But what separated her from mere mortals was that she could basically super-saiyan it out there when things just weren't going her way, and get a match back under control that most people would've lost. Have I seen other players turn a match around? Absolutely. But she was on another level with the frequency with which she did it, and how demonstrative she was when she was trying to enter Hulk Mode.

Brady absolutely had that, and you know it when you see it and it's damned rare even among elite-level pro athletes. I've seen it with some great pitchers, who can lose their edge but regain it or start doing something just better with their execution.

AB in DC · Oct 24, 2023

Were we spoiled by Brady? Yes

Does this have anything to do with how we view Mac Jones? Hardly. Is there any doubt that Mac's a bottom-ten starting QB in the league right now? Possibly bottom-five?

If he was a middle-of-the-road competent-but-not-special QB and people were still shitting on him, that would be one thing. But Mac just isn't very good.

It's make-or-break for Mac this year, and yes he had a very good game 7, but none of his previous six were any better than "meh".

lexrageorge · Oct 24, 2023

CreightonGubanich said:
There's something to this - and the original point was that it's really hard to go back. I think that's true, but I don't know that it necessarily hinders objective analysis. The only parallel I can draw as a sports fan is to Pedro. Like Brady, Pedro was as good at what he did as anyone to ever do it. I'll never watch a pitcher as good as Peak Pedro. It definitely impacted how much I enjoyed watching future Boston "aces"; I love Jon Lester, but he was never Pedro. I absolutely miss that time when every start was an event - when him throwing up 8 IP with 2 hits and 15K's was just as likely as not. I don't think it hurt my ability to objectively judge the performance of Lester, or Beckett, or Price, or Wade Miley, or anyone else, but there's always that "yeah, but Pedro..." that might never fully go away. My grandkids are going to hate hearing me talk about Pedro.

It's the same with Brady, and for me, where I feel it the most is when it comes time for that gotta-have-it drive. That expectation that Brady would figure it out, even if he was having a bad game, that he'd find a way when the team needed it the most. That feeling of "here we go again" when Brady got the ball back down a score with only a few minutes left to play. Or even more specifically: that moment when the other team is driving, up a score late in the fourth, and the drive stalls; now they're in 3rd and long, and the camera cuts over to Brady, tossing warmup passes. Helmet off, eyes blacked, face emotionless...and you just know. It's over. The other team is screwed.

Seeing Mac orchestrate a game winning drive last week was great. It was also pleasantly surprising. And that's just what it's like for fans of virtually every other team.

Yep, there was a certain body language and vibe that come out of the field whenever Brady got the ball in the 4th quarter. It's hard to put in words; just say you had to see it. It was also fun to read the post game words of opposing writers, and in particular those of the divisional opponents. You could see how Brady was literally the killer of dreams across the NFL.

One of the classic examples is this game below. Jets played well and had a one score lead in the 4th quarter, and the Pats were facing a 3rd-and-17 deep in their own territory with 10:46 left. Of course, once Brady converted to Edelman for 27 yards, you could essentially write the upcoming Brady TD pass in pen before it happened, just by looking at the body language of everyone on the field:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201510250nwe.htm

And it happened again, and again, and again, and again, .... It was not the norm, and likely never will be the norm again in our lifetimes.

Bergs · Oct 24, 2023

AB in DC said:
Were we spoiled by Brady? Yes

Does this have anything to do with how we view Mac Jones? Hardly. Is there any doubt that Mac's a bottom-ten starting QB in the league right now? Possibly bottom-five?

If he was a middle-of-the-road competent-but-not-special QB and people were still shitting on him, that would be one thing. But Mac just isn't very good.

It's make-or-break for Mac this year, and yes he had a very good game 7, but none of his previous six were any better than "meh".

Tell us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread without telling us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread.

Bergs · Oct 24, 2023

lexrageorge said:
Yep, there was a certain body language and vibe that come out of the field whenever Brady got the ball in the 4th quarter. It's hard to put in words; just say you had to see it. It was also fun to read the post game words of opposing writers, and in particular those of the divisional opponents. You could see how Brady was literally the killer of dreams across the NFL.

One of the classic examples is this game below. Jets played well and had a one score lead in the 4th quarter, and the Pats were facing a 3rd-and-17 deep in their own territory with 10:46 left. Of course, once Brady converted to Edelman for 27 yards, you could essentially write the upcoming Brady TD pass in pen before it happened, just by looking at the body language of everyone on the field:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201510250nwe.htm

And it happened again, and again, and again, and again, .... It was not the norm, and likely never will be the norm again in our lifetimes.

That Browns game Gronk got hurt and we were down by multiple scores with 2 minutes left is another one that comes to mind. Brady was a fucking assassin.

MuppetAsteriskTalk · Oct 24, 2023

Bergs said:
That Browns game Gronk got hurt and we were down by multiple scores with 2 minutes left is another one that comes to mind. Brady was a fucking assassin.

Another I recall is the Bills game, which might have been his first game back from the missed season, and he stunk most of the game and then exploded right at the end to steal the game.

Ralphwiggum · Oct 24, 2023

Did he ruin us? That’s not the way I would think about the Brady era at all. I was 29 when they won their first Super Bowl, and in my late 40s by the time Brady left. Pretty much the best time in your life to have something like that happen. I had an appreciation for how hard it was to win, money to be able to attend a lot of the games, perspective that when they lost (which was rare) it was still a great year even if they didn’t walk away with a Lombardi. As I get older I realize more and more that I was fucking blessed to be able to root for the greatest Dynasty in sports history for two fucking decades. There’s no way I would put the word “ruin” in a sentence as it relates to Tom Brady. We will never see anything like that again, and we’ll never see a QB like Tom Brady again. I fucking hope nobody expected Mac Jones to be Tom Brady, there is only one Tom Brady, but honestly I dont really see people doing that. If anything I’ve seen more people turn quickly against BB, which is another discussion entirely.

To the question at hand: I really don’t think Mac is being judged against Brady. I think most Pats fans were excited about him after his rookie year, and disappointed he hasn’t progressed since then. Fans want to see progression, Mac hasn’t shown us that (for whatever reason, I am down on Mac but it’s obviously not all his fault). It is year 3 and he still looks lost out there a lot, in some ways worse than his rookie year. There are a lot of contributing factors but he’s not really been a part of the solution the last two years, Sunday afternoon notwithstanding.

mulluysavage · Oct 24, 2023

We are blinded by the Lombardis.

Bergs · Oct 24, 2023

Ralphwiggum said:
Did he ruin us? That’s not the way I would think about the Brady era at all. I was 29 when they won their first Super Bowl, and in my late 40s by the time Brady left. Pretty much the best time in your life to have something like that happen. I had an appreciation for how hard it was to win, money to be able to attend a lot of the games, perspective that when they lost (which was rare) it was still a great year even if they didn’t walk away with a Lombardi. As I get older I realize more and more that I was fucking blessed to be able to root for the greatest Dynasty in sports history for two fucking decades. There’s no way I would put the word “ruin” in a sentence as it relates to Tom Brady. We will never see anything like that again, and we’ll never see a QB like Tom Brady again. I fucking hope nobody expected Mac Jones to be Tom Brady, there is only one Tom Brady, but honestly I dont really see people doing that. If anything I’ve seen more people turn quickly against BB, which is another discussion entirely.

To the question at hand: I really don’t think Mac is being judged against Brady. I think most Pats fans were excited about him after his rookie year, and disappointed he hasn’t progressed since then. Fans want to see progression, Mac hasn’t shown us that (for whatever reason, I am down on Mac but it’s obviously not all his fault). It is year 3 and he still looks lost out there a lot, in some ways worse than his rookie year. There are a lot of contributing factors but he’s not really been a part of the solution the last two years, Sunday afternoon notwithstanding.

Tell us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread without telling us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread.

I'm kinda kidding on this one. But your response misses the point of this thread, imo. And lord knows yours isn't the only one.

Ralphwiggum · Oct 25, 2023

Bergs said:
Tell us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread without telling us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread.

I'm kinda kidding on this one. But your response misses the point of this thread, imo. And lord knows yours isn't the only one.

I’m reading the OP again, and answering for myself, a Patriots fan. What am I missing?

Edit: isn’t the question whether we can forgive Mac unfortunate enough not to be Tom Brady and evaluate him fairly in light of that? I thought my post answered that. What else am I missing? I’m high as fuck so it could be a lot.

johnmd20 · Oct 25, 2023

Bergs said:
Tell us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread without telling us you haven't bothered to think about any of the thoughts in this thread.

I'm kinda kidding on this one. But your response misses the point of this thread, imo. And lord knows yours isn't the only one.

Tell me you’re an annoying blowhard without telling me you’re an annoying blowhard.

mauf · Oct 25, 2023

AB in DC said:
Were we spoiled by Brady? Yes

Does this have anything to do with how we view Mac Jones? Hardly. Is there any doubt that Mac's a bottom-ten starting QB in the league right now? Possibly bottom-five?

If he was a middle-of-the-road competent-but-not-special QB and people were still shitting on him, that would be one thing. But Mac just isn't very good.

It's make-or-break for Mac this year, and yes he had a very good game 7, but none of his previous six were any better than "meh".

Pats’ fans being spoiled shows up more in evaluations of BB than it does in evaluations of Mac Jones.

The Pats were a playoff team two years ago and had a win-and-in Week 18 game last season. This year, they are legitimately bad, Sunday’s win notwithstanding. It’s understandable that fans are disappointed, even frustrated. It’s a bit much that a lot of Pats’ fans are acting like they’ve been wandering the desert for forty years and calling for the head of their Hall of Fame coach. That’s being spoiled.

Complaining about Mac Jones is different. Year 3 is often a make-or-break year for QBs, and I think fans of other teams would agree with Pats’ fans that Mac has demonstrated that he isn’t the long-term answer (again, Sunday’s win notwithstanding). So when BB was praising Cunningham effusively (by BB’s standards) a week or two ago, it’s understandable that fans wanted to see what they had.

lexrageorge · Oct 25, 2023

Ralphwiggum said:
I’m reading the OP again, and answering for myself, a Patriots fan. What am I missing?

Edit: isn’t the question whether we can forgive Mac unfortunate enough not to be Tom Brady and evaluate him fairly in light of that? I thought my post answered that. What else am I missing? I’m high as fuck so it could be a lot.

You're missing nothing. The thread has no major theme that everyone must follow; honestly, it's not at all clear the point of this thread. And your point about Belichick is spot on.

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