drleather2001 said:
Nah, even anti-semites appreciate love them some Jewish lawyers with Harvard degrees.
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
Nah, even anti-semites appreciate love them some Jewish lawyers with Harvard degrees.
No. The Patriots didn't get fucked because of the lawyering. This wasn't litigation, and there were much larger forces at work. If they could actually litigate the issues of whether the Pats violated a rule and whether the punishment was excessive, the smart money would be on the Pats winning big. Brady may prevail if he goes the distance, but, for the reasons already well-explained by others in the mega-threads, the team really didn't have any viable legal options. Kraft's capitulation occurred as a result of his membership in a very wealthy and exclusive group that gives zero fucks about due process and fairness as long their goose keeps spewing out golden eggs. That's it. The lawyers' work was window-dressing, however many hours they billed at a grand or more per.
Patriots.com @PATRIOTSdotCOM 25s25 seconds ago
http://Patriots.com will be streaming #NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's press conference live at aprox. 2pm ET. #Patriots
http://Patriots.com will be streaming #NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's press conference live at aprox. 2pm ET. #Patriots
In speaking with Jonathan Kraft yesterday for several minutes, 2 things clear. Futility of fighting. Sense that they still got jobbed.
— Tom E. Curran (@tomecurran) May 20, 2015
— Tom E. Curran (@tomecurran) May 20, 2015
You are criticizing Kraft's "I'm ending the rhetoric" speech for insufficient rhetoric. The tense choice you describe is deliberate - not because Kraft doubts their innocents or feels the punishment is fair, but because the whole point of his statement was that he was moving past contesting it.BoneForYourJar said:
Tony Mass of all people hits a lot of the points here
http://sports.cbslocal.com/2015/05/20/deflategate-robert-kraft-hates-patriots-fans/
http://sports.cbslocal.com/2015/05/20/deflategate-robert-kraft-hates-patriots-fans/
I truly hate being simpatico with Tony Mazz but am heartened by the fact that he doesn't know that we Pats fans are not monolithic in our views.
A friend pointed out that the NFL Constitution does not include an appellate right. So it goes beyond that he can't win; it's that there's no mechanism for an appeal in the first place. Perhaps that's a technicality and I think most accept that Kraft could not win if he chose to fight, but I thought it was an interesting point in any event.
A friend pointed out that the NFL Constitution does not include an appellate right. So it goes beyond that he can't win; it's that there's no mechanism for an appeal in the first place. Perhaps that's a technicality and I think most accept that Kraft could not win if he chose to fight, but I thought it was an interesting point in any event.
@tomecurran is there any way the NFL will reduce the pats penalty on its own after hearing Brady's case
— Nate Carter (@Nateinhawaii) May 20, 2015
IMO? NFW. https://t.co/sWndCsTlKf
— Tom E. Curran (@tomecurran) May 20, 2015
@tomecurran do you think they realize how pissed fans are about the decision?
— Sean Curran (@sean_scurrannb) May 20, 2015
Absolutely not. https://t.co/Mtz4j4l67O
— Tom E. Curran (@tomecurran) May 20, 2015
— Nate Carter (@Nateinhawaii) May 20, 2015
IMO? NFW. https://t.co/sWndCsTlKf
— Tom E. Curran (@tomecurran) May 20, 2015
@tomecurran do you think they realize how pissed fans are about the decision?
— Sean Curran (@sean_scurrannb) May 20, 2015
Absolutely not. https://t.co/Mtz4j4l67O
— Tom E. Curran (@tomecurran) May 20, 2015
If you're siding with Mazz on any issue at all you might as well give up following sports entirely. Christ, people.
Kraft's backing down just seemed like admission that, yes, despite the fact that the Wells' report was flawed, and the entire thing was a sting operation, yadda yadda, that the team went out of its way to flout the rules, and there's no use going forward with a lawsuit that could potentially bring up more damning evidence. Perhaps we will find out what came of the meeting, but it's almost like The Sheriff (perhaps) had a trump card regarding another transgression that he was willing to pull if Kraft wanted to go scorched earth. It's like some of those who are falsely accused and punished for one crime, but are resigned to the penalty given the other things they've done in life in which they've skated for. Or this is just a bunch of mental masturbation...and bloviating on this sport tends to be just that.
Personally, I think the organization has a lot of egg on its face as of this moment, and arguing otherwise is an exercise in futility (or a playground for fanboys). The concussion thing (among a huuuuge list of unethical things these league makes billions off of) soured me quite a bit, but the Patriots winning kept me interested (and the fact that Ws meant = not caring that these guys are getting their brains scrambled is pretty fucked up). I'm not sure what will be the straw that broke the camel's back, but this seeming admission after four months of playing the victim is a real buzzkill.
Should they be happy with the organization, particularly the owner today? No.
Personally, I think the organization has a lot of egg on its face as of this moment, and arguing otherwise is an exercise in futility (or a playground for fanboys). The concussion thing (among a huuuuge list of unethical things these league makes billions off of) soured me quite a bit, but the Patriots winning kept me interested (and the fact that Ws meant = not caring that these guys are getting their brains scrambled is pretty fucked up). I'm not sure what will be the straw that broke the camel's back, but this seeming admission after four months of playing the victim is a real buzzkill.
Should they be happy with the organization, particularly the owner today? No.
TheoShmeo said:
I agree that since there isn't a mechanism for the team to appeal that there wasn't much for Kraft to do on that front. That said, his tone was too conciliatory and he heaped too much praise on Goodell. You can say that it is nick picking since the end outcome is the same but I would have preferred him to take a more defiant tone and to not let it go publicly. He should have taken questions afterwards and reiterated how wrong the NFL is in this case. I just don't see the upside of saying its over from a PR standpoint. The NFL isn't losing any money if the Patriots continue to publicly complain about the report and penalties.
TheoShmeo said:
At the risk of sounding redundant most here have been critical of the way in which he handled "standing down", not the fact that he was being pragmatic. That's a nuance that I'm not at all surprised Tony Mazz can't quite grasp or more likely chooses to ignore because it doesn't fit his narrative.
Basically, Kraft is OK with the league trying to ruin his team's next three seasons over something that calls for a minimal fine, and he's also OK that the main resason for this is because the other 31 teams in the league are tired of getting their asses kicked on the field so they're resorting to this bullshit to try to take the Patriots down.
Why would anyone be OK with Kraft signing off on this? Why should we support his product if he seemingly doesn't care as much about it as he does about staying in the good graces of the Bidwells of the league?
Why would anyone be OK with Kraft signing off on this? Why should we support his product if he seemingly doesn't care as much about it as he does about staying in the good graces of the Bidwells of the league?
Ian Rapoport @RapSheet 7s7 seconds ago
#Chargers owner Dean Spanos said he takes his hat off to Kraft for his decision to accept penalties. “I have a lot of respect for him.”
#Chargers owner Dean Spanos said he takes his hat off to Kraft for his decision to accept penalties. “I have a lot of respect for him.”
I'm not criticizing Kraft for insufficient rhetoric. I'm criticizing him for rhetoric that gives away more than is necessary, by placing the disagreement in the past. He could have, instead, simply said, "I disagree (with the conclusions drawn from the report/with the league's findings/with the proportionality of the discipline, etc) but I accept it." Period.
[Quote function not working for me today. This was a reply to SuperNomario upthread]
[Quote function not working for me today. This was a reply to SuperNomario upthread]
I hear what folks are saying about the way Kraft dialed it back. Fair points, all. I also bristled at the Goodell praise and not saying something positive about Tom (which actually bothered me much more). "Nothing about today dampens our support for Tom and encouragement of him in his own appeal, and we do believe that four games was excessive" was something I thought he was going to say.
At the same time, there are a number of possibilities. Maybe Kraft has a deal with Goodell on Tom's appeal and maybe part of that deal was based on Kraft making nice nice. And even if there isn't a deal, maybe Kraft thinks his statement will grease the wheels for a reduction in games by Goodell. Or maybe it's in between in that they have a tacit understanding on that point. Last, even if none of that is true, I'm willing to at least entertain that Kraft's experience with the NFL tells him that he will gain more in the long run by striking a conciliatory tone at this point.
SJH: "Ruin" the next three seasons? Please. The loss of two picks -- even including a one -- is hardly going to do that. The Pats have blown their share of picks over the years without it being fatal. Hell, last year's number one added very little last season. And reducing the views of those who disagree with you to "staying in the good graces with the Bidwills of the NFL" is grossly inaccurate. As many have said, those OK with Kraft's move are OK for the very practical reason that he could not win and that fighting the fight would likely have adverse consequences in a context that was futile. That is not hard to understand. If Kraft could win, most people I daresay wouldn't look at staying on the side of the other owners as nearly as relevant in the overall equation. Simply put, If I thought Kraft could win, I'd want him to fight.
At the same time, there are a number of possibilities. Maybe Kraft has a deal with Goodell on Tom's appeal and maybe part of that deal was based on Kraft making nice nice. And even if there isn't a deal, maybe Kraft thinks his statement will grease the wheels for a reduction in games by Goodell. Or maybe it's in between in that they have a tacit understanding on that point. Last, even if none of that is true, I'm willing to at least entertain that Kraft's experience with the NFL tells him that he will gain more in the long run by striking a conciliatory tone at this point.
SJH: "Ruin" the next three seasons? Please. The loss of two picks -- even including a one -- is hardly going to do that. The Pats have blown their share of picks over the years without it being fatal. Hell, last year's number one added very little last season. And reducing the views of those who disagree with you to "staying in the good graces with the Bidwills of the NFL" is grossly inaccurate. As many have said, those OK with Kraft's move are OK for the very practical reason that he could not win and that fighting the fight would likely have adverse consequences in a context that was futile. That is not hard to understand. If Kraft could win, most people I daresay wouldn't look at staying on the side of the other owners as nearly as relevant in the overall equation. Simply put, If I thought Kraft could win, I'd want him to fight.
Shit this thing isn't starting in the next couple minutes, is it. I have to head to the airport around 2:30. Dammit.
Ben Volin @BenVolin 2m2 minutes ago
Robert Kraft declines to speak with us this morning. “We’re gonna just chill.”
Robert Kraft declines to speak with us this morning. “We’re gonna just chill.”
soxhop411 said:
Subtext: "Volin, if I were going to speak to someone you'd be last on the list"
Karen Guregian @kguregian 4m4 minutes agoPedroKsBambino said:
Robert Kraft walked by and said: " we're gonna just chill"
not just to Volin
And two-thirds of the times he comes to the plate, Big Papi doesn't get a hit, so next time the Sox have a runner on third and Papi's up with two outs, let's just call him out instead of giving him a chance to swing the bat. Chances are good he'll make an out anyway, so no big deal.TheoShmeo said:
When Spanos is praising you for something you did you can be sure it was 100% the wrong decision. Good God.
Ben Volin @BenVolin 11s11 seconds ago
Goodell press conference in 5 minutes. Catch it live here on Periscope
Goodell press conference in 5 minutes. Catch it live here on Periscope
The loss of a 1st round pick is reasonably assumed to be a guy who can start for 4 or 5 years in the league. Maybe not a superstar, but a regular NFL player. That's a severe penalty and it significantly impacts the team's ability to continue to compete at a high level as usual. So yes, I see that as an attempt to ruin the Pats' 2016 season.
I will also never accept that Kraft should not have given up the fight just because he might not have won. Fighting would have knocked Goodell down a peg or three, which would have been a favorable outcome even if the penalties stood.
I will also never accept that Kraft should not have given up the fight just because he might not have won. Fighting would have knocked Goodell down a peg or three, which would have been a favorable outcome even if the penalties stood.
A swing and a miss, kartvelo.
SJH said that Kraft is OK with the NFL trying to ruin the next three seasons. Nothing we have seen demonstrates that Kraft is OK with that. He himself said he thinks the penalty was excessive. But Kraft is unwilling to pursue an unwinnable course of action.
My comment was not that I am OK with losing the picks, just as I would not be OK with the Sox conceding Papi's at bats. I think it sucks and that it is totally unjust. To say the least. Losing the picks is a very big deal. But, at the same time, I think it's something that they can and will overcome, and that in no way is it going to ruin any season, much less three of them.
SJH said that Kraft is OK with the NFL trying to ruin the next three seasons. Nothing we have seen demonstrates that Kraft is OK with that. He himself said he thinks the penalty was excessive. But Kraft is unwilling to pursue an unwinnable course of action.
My comment was not that I am OK with losing the picks, just as I would not be OK with the Sox conceding Papi's at bats. I think it sucks and that it is totally unjust. To say the least. Losing the picks is a very big deal. But, at the same time, I think it's something that they can and will overcome, and that in no way is it going to ruin any season, much less three of them.
Kraft's decision was his decision - admire the step he took, we may disagree on things but that's not unusual
Focused on the meetings, not up to date on the Brady appeal and whether he will hear it
Focused on the meetings, not up to date on the Brady appeal and whether he will hear it
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I'm as frustrated as you are, SJH. Maybe even more so. I've gone OFF a number of times the past few days, but I'm really, REALLY trying to see this through his eyes.
And all I can think of is that he realized that he simply cannot win unless he goes nuclear. And that he's looked at what a winning scenario is if he goes nuclear, and even that isn't necessarily a win for him, because it's not like he just has a team. He's still part of this golden goose called the NFL, and maybe he thinks that a nuclear scenario damages the golden goose so much that it negatively impacts him more than his team taking a hit and moving on.
That's gotta be it, right? No way Bob Kraft just capitulates unless he sees no hope.
Here's what made me sick to my stomach, though, about this:
1. Him offering even one syllable of praise to Goodell. He didn't need to say ANYTHING about Goodell. If he was going to publicly announce this decision, all he had to do was say he believes the Patriots are totally innocent and that in time the facts will bear this out. But that, as the league is currently structured, there's really no way to fight this without undermining the entire league - not the NFL office, but the league itself. And so he's not going to fight. I *hated* that he offered any praise to Goodell at all. God I hated that.
2. It continues to open the door for any team to offer ANY accusation of the Pats violating any teeny, tiny rule. Now what does the NFL have to do? They have established the narrative that the Patriots are serial cheaters, and thus were punished huge for that. And so any future accusation HAS to be treated very seriously. So anyone with sour grapes (like as in this case) could just levy a baseless charge, and the NFL has to pull out all the stops to investigate, and it will once again become a huge circus. There's no way the NFL could NOT handle it this way. The pattern is set, and Kraft capitulated to it. It sickens me. So you'll get bitter opponents claiming that the Patriots were doing something funny to the communications gear. Or tampering. Or whatever. Doesn't really even have to be credible. But just because it's an accusation, people all around the country and the NFL will say, "Oh god here we go again with the frigging Patriots…" and it will just escalate again.
I mean, THIS scenario is as big a joke as it gets. And look how they pursued it. By giving in, he just gave the NFL - all 31 other teams and the NFL office - license to trample on them left and right. Because if they didn't fight Spygate because they actually did something wrong, fine. But if they didn't fight this one even though they think they're innocent simply because it's too much of a hassle and it's too much of a losing effort, then we have no reason to think that they'll fight ANY accusation, EVER.
THAT is what pisses me off and makes me sick to my stomach.
They'll survive the loss of the picks. The million dollar fine is symbolic - Kraft has that much loose change in his couch cushions. Brady's suspension will be overturned by any reasonable impartial judge. All that will be ok.
It's the principle and what it represents here and now, and moving forward. THAT is the problem.
