13 from what was said today on Beetle and Zo.Hoya81 said:What PSI do the balls arrive from Wilson at?
13 from what was said today on Beetle and Zo.Hoya81 said:What PSI do the balls arrive from Wilson at?
The details in the report provide Goodell with the cover he needs to punish Brady, including a suspension if needed.ivanvamp said:We are all going to be seriously pissed when Goodell suspends Brady despite nothing remotely like a "gotcha!".
Also, Tom Brady will receive the loudest ovation any athlete has ever received when he plays the first home game next year.
tedseye said:For those who lack the time to read the entire 243 page report, but can access it, Fig. 14 shows how rapidly pressure in any football changes as temperature falls or rises in the first 10-15 minutes of shifts in the temperatur e range in question. Just looking at this graphic would impress any neutral scientist that arriving at any conclusions about what was done in the stadium should be carried out with extreme caution, if at all. What assumptions are made as to when on these rapidly changing curves the Patriots' balls, and then the Colts' balls, we're tested is absolutely critical to the results obtained.
It's a trick question though because, as anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, psi fluctuates based on atmospheric conditions.Gambler7 said:13 from what was said today on Beetle and Zo.
They already had the pertinent ones. So those were explicitly not what they wanted. They wanted a member of their team to read through his texts to quote mine anything that could support the conclusion they were working from.djbayko said:For the 100th time, they offered him the ability to turn over selective, relevant texts only...not the entire phone. I'm fine with his decision not to comply anyways, but ignoring this point distorts the truth and weakens your argument.
plus a billion.Seabass177 said:Finally put my finger on who Goodell reminds me of -- a muggle Dolores Umbridge.
Carry on.
drleather2001 said:It's like "Breaker Morant" all up in this bitch.
I don't think an experienced investigator would ever make that assumption. You don't know what you don't know.nighthob said:They already had the pertinent ones.
lexrageorge said:The details in the report provide Goodell with the cover he needs to punish Brady, including a suspension if needed.
However, the holes in that report are so wide, that there's almost zero chance any such suspension would be upheld during appeal. The statements from Brady's agent make it clear that just about any punishment will be appealed, and the well noted flaws in the Wells report will be the focus of the appeal. I give the NFLPA/Brady a 99% chance of victory in that hearing.
Remagellan said:
If this gets me to re-watch Breaker Morant, that would be the only good that comes out of this whole mess.
drleather2001 said:I think whoever said that Brady (and Ghostkowski) refusing to turn over phones is likely a union thing and not one that is based on fear of revealing anything in particular is correct.
If it is, (and even if it is just advice from Brady's personal lawyer), faulting Brady for that is akin to blaming someone for not talking to the police, per instructions of their lawyer, by saying "Well, if they had nothing to hide, why didn't they just tell the police what they knew?!"
"I deflated the balls? I deflated the balls! I deflated the BALLS?! Whoa! Wait a minute!"
Yes, that's one of the reasons why I said I'm fine with his decision, in the portion you quotedHarry Hooper said:
Of course, if he had turned over 2,784 messages, the report could have gone on to say, "We have substantial reason to believe this is only a portion of the relevant messages."
It's the equivalent of a fishing expedition. Let me go through your phone to see what I can take out of context. No one would give up there phone.EvilEmpire said:I don't think an experienced investigator would ever make that assumption. You don't know what you don't know.
nighthob said:They already had the pertinent ones. So those were explicitly not what they wanted. They wanted a member of their team to read through his texts to quote mine anything that could support the conclusion they were working from.
SuperManny said:It's the equivalent of a fishing expedition. Let me go through your phone to see what I can take out of context. No one would give up there phone.
I think you're wrong. The report clearly states that they asked for relevant texts only. Why are you dismissing this?nighthob said:They already had the pertinent ones. So those were explicitly not what they wanted. They wanted a member of their team to read through his texts to quote mine anything that could support the conclusion they were working from.
Bongorific said:That's a great way to be hit with a spoliation charge.
So let's assume that Brady told them some form of this: "You already have the sum total of all the texts pertaining to game balls and air pressure from the two Pats employees". Would that lead Wells to conclude that Brady was being uncooperative? Or lying?I think you're wrong. The report clearly states that they asked for relevant texts only. Why are you dismissing this?
Hint: "Relevant" texts are not limited to communications with the 2 ball boy / goons in question. They would include any texts to other individuals ragaedong the topic of game balls and air pressure.
And it's not his lawyer. One of the interesting questions is who is his lawyer. It's not Kessler, at least to date.wiffleballhero said:Did not see this five pgs. earlier!
BigSoxFan said:And not to mention how embarrassing it would be for him for the world to see how many emoticons he uses in texts to friends and teammates.
Jettisoned said:It doesn't make sense for Brady to hand over his phone, guilty or not. A lack of incriminating texts isn't going to clear him, and obviously if he's guilty and there are incriminating texts that doesn't work either. The only thing it accomplishes is that a bunch of paid shills for the league sift through his personal correspondence.
The refs have that visual impairment excuse thoughnorm from cheers said:I wonder why Walt Anderson is listed as a "more probable than not" conspirator..
On his watch he didn't log down the pre game PSI even though he was briefed by the NFL that the Patriots might be messing with them.. why didn't he have the numbers to use as a baseline or whatever term scientists use?
On his watch, the balls went to the field unsupervised and according to him that was the first time in 19 years that happened.
On his watch a ball was stolen and then an NFL Official tried to replace it with a non ok'd ball.
On his watch he only had time to check the all Patriots footballs and only 4 of the Colts Footballs at half time.
This is the guy whose word they take as gospel?
Most likely an indirect quote from Woody Paige on what HE thinks should happen. I can only assume he suffered a stroke at some point or is always drunk.drtooth said:Saw this on my CBS Sports feed. 1 year???
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year
So "possibly" being involved in altering the PSI of a football is a more criminal offense to the NFL than domestic violence. Ummm..........
drtooth said:Saw this on my CBS Sports feed. 1 year???
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year
So "possibly" being involved in altering the PSI of a football is a more criminal offense to the NFL than domestic violence. Ummm..........
They had the communications between Brady and Jastremski. I think I stipulated that they wanted their investigators to look through every stored text message to mine any quote that could in any way be construed as supporting the conclusion they were working from.EvilEmpire said:I don't think an experienced investigator would ever make that assumption. You don't know what you don't know.
Listening to SVP and Russillo earlier, they mentioned how they both respect Polian, but he is obviously biased in his views. I think there will be a clear divide between the haters and the sane media folk.ifmanis5 said:Bill Polian on PTI now blammering on about Integrity of the Game. Punted on what the punishment would be. Also thinks if the guilty party was a team other than the Pats then it would be a big deal to the league, lesser so to the public.
How would this work?djbayko said:For the 100th time, they offered him the ability to turn over selective, relevant texts only...not the entire phone.
I don't know, but we'll never find out. Look, I'm clearly on Brady's side on this subject. I was only trying to corect two separate statements thst (a) he was asked to turn over his entire phone, and (b) it should be obvious to the investigators that they already have everything.Mooch said:So let's assume that Brady told them some form of this: "You already have the sum total of all the texts pertaining to game balls and air pressure from the two Pats employees". Would that lead Wells to conclude that Brady was being uncooperative? Or lying?
They didn't ask for his entire phone's contents tho.Jettisoned said:It doesn't make sense for Brady to hand over his phone, guilty or not. A lack of incriminating texts isn't going to clear him, and obviously if he's guilty and there are incriminating texts that doesn't work either. The only thing it accomplishes is that a bunch of paid shills for the league sift through his personal correspondence.
Using these readings we assume the Patriots' balls were measured immediately. For a conservative number let's say within 5 min. of entering a 71 degree environment. Using the experiment done by Car. Mellon and the time numbers given to us by DennyDoylesBoil, also assuming a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, the Patriot balls should have measured between 11.0 and 11.5. Forget the rest of the noise and speculation. If we base the whole thing on those assumptions then these numbers are hard facts.JohnnyK said:https://twitter.com/DougKyedNESN/status/596001980973248512
Here are some of DDB's numbers I referenced.DennyDoyle'sBoil said:I did trial 2 much more quickly. The reality is that the pressure drop happens pretty fast so it didn't seem necessary to keep the ball at 39 for a full hour. Also, not leaving the gauge in made the difference.
So, to repeat, starting pressure at 13.0 in about 71 degree conditions. I deflated the football and filled it with a hand pump to 13.0, and tested it after 10 minutes and after 20 minutes in the same room to make sure it was holding steady at 13.0 and it was. Straight into 39 degrees for 35 minutes. Time zero was when I brought it back to 71 degrees.
Time zero: 11.0 p.s.i
+ 1 minute: 11.3 psi
+ 2 minutes: 11.6 psi
+ 4 minutes: 11.95-12.0 psi
+ 7 minutes 12.4 psi
+ 9 minutes 12.6 psi
+ 12 minutes: 12.75 psi
+ 15 minutes 12.95 psi
Here are some of DDB's numbers I referenced.DennyDoyle'sBoil said:I did trial 2 much more quickly. The reality is that the pressure drop happens pretty fast so it didn't seem necessary to keep the ball at 39 for a full hour. Also, not leaving the gauge in made the difference.
So, to repeat, starting pressure at 13.0 in about 71 degree conditions. I deflated the football and filled it with a hand pump to 13.0, and tested it after 10 minutes and after 20 minutes in the same room to make sure it was holding steady at 13.0 and it was. Straight into 39 degrees for 35 minutes. Time zero was when I brought it back to 71 degrees.
Time zero: 11.0 p.s.i
+ 1 minute: 11.3 psi
+ 2 minutes: 11.6 psi
+ 4 minutes: 11.95-12.0 psi
+ 7 minutes 12.4 psi
+ 9 minutes 12.6 psi
+ 12 minutes: 12.75 psi
+ 15 minutes 12.95 psi
Everyone should read this post and then stop arguing whether Brady should have turned over records.PBDWake said:
The more I think about it, the more it makes zero sense. I said earlier that as a named plaintiff in the suit against the NFL, Brady's obligation to the PA means he won't turn his phone over for fear of setting a bad precedent. But let's say that he does turn the messages over. It's not like Wells is giving him a list of text messages that he wants. He gives him what he thinks is relevant communication. Shockingly, not a single text message paints Brady in an incriminating light. As mentioned before, the Wells report notes that they have reason to believe there is more to be considered, but that Tom only made a portion of his text messages available. Furthermore, Wells hasn't shared what he recovered from other phones. Say he has a text with the cleared equipment manager. Something around Christmas that says "Hey, can you get the guys' wives' shoe sizes? I've got some Uggs coming over for them.". Brady didn't think a routine Christmas gift was relevant. Suddenly, the Wells reports now notes that Brady not only turned over a sanitized white washed set of messages, but they have proof on the other side that there were relevant text messages pertaining to gifts given to McNally and JJ (and of course the rest of the team, but much like the autographs McNally got, there's no context to how many other employees also got them), and they think it proves Tom is hiding more. While that scenario is a bit on the exaggerated side, turning over your own interpretation of "relevant text messages" only invites many more specific questions of what are you hiding. And once THOSE questions are asked, Wells has some leverage to ask to look through your history himself. It's an awful idea, and a trap set by Wells, if he's working under the assumption that Brady was involved. There is nothing in there that will clear him, if a documented instance of Brady requesting the balls be set to 12.5, and delivered to the officials with a copy of the rules showing that 12.5 is acceptable, and that they should be kept there, is not evidence that sways Wells' opinion. Trying to prove a negative like "I didn't know" is fighting a losing battle. And much like "I used a urinal" instead of "I took a leak" will be turned into proof because it's a toilet only bathroom, no urinal, any slip up or open to interpretation message Brady has is going to be proof of guilt to Wells.
Not to mention that the chain of custody for that one is highly suspect.Harry Hooper said:To add, if the Colts measured the intercepted ball (losing some air in the process), then it's likely one of the 2 or 3 lowest-pressure balls. It shouldn't even be included in the set.
djbayko said:I don't know, but we'll never find out. Look, I'm clearly on Brady's side on this subject. I was only trying to corect two separate statements thst (a) he was asked to turn over his entire phone, and (b) it should be obvious to the investigators that they already have everything.
They didn't assume that the balls measured 12.5psi at 71º, they used the assumption that they measured 12.5psi at room temperature and were then warmed up later in the 71-74 range. This decreases the amount of reduction in pressure on the front end while maximising the expected increase on the back end. If they used the same temperature range on both ends then the balls fall within the expected range.koufax32 said:Using these readings we assume the Patriots' balls were measured immediately. For a conservative number let's say within 5 min. of entering a 71 degree environment. Using the experiment done by Car. Mellon and the time numbers given to us by DennyDoylesBoil, also assuming a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, the Patriot balls should have measured between 11.0 and 11.5. Forget the rest of the noise and speculation. If we base the whole thing on those assumptions then these numbers are hard facts.
The only way there was tampering going on is if it was done by less than .5 psi and even that's questionable. Texts are subjective. Motives are subjective. These numbers are not.
What am I missing??
Yes. "narrowly tailored requests pertinent to the subject" theoretically could have been "texts to or from other players, coaches, and any other football-related personnel during the 2014-2015 season."PhilPlantier said:
Are you basing your conclusions about the scope of the request on this portion of the report?
"Of note, Tom Brady was asked to provide emails and text messages in response to narrowly tailored requests pertinent to the subject of our investigation. Brady declined our request."
From experience both sending and receiving interrogatories, I can assure you that "narrowly tailored" means very different things to lawyers sitting on opposite sides of the table. I'm not excusing Brady's general lack of cooperation, but I wouldn't dismiss concerns about the breadth of the request based on Wells' self-serving suggestion that the request was reasonable and non-intrusive.