Copa America game thread
- Thread starter DJnVa
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Wood -- Dempsey
Johnson -- Nagbe -- Bradley -- Pulisic
Besler -- Brooks -- Cameron -- Yedlin
Guzan
How about this?Johnson -- Nagbe -- Bradley -- Pulisic
Besler -- Brooks -- Cameron -- Yedlin
Guzan
I feel bad benching Zardes, weirdly. He has grown on me over the Copa.
Fixed. Yes, I deleted Bradley and didn't insert a replacement. 11-10 with no Bradley can't be any worse than his best attempts to shit the bed and turn it into 12-10.
I think I'd give Howard the start, for sure. But yes, Nagbe, Pulisic and moving FJ (who has disappointed for me) forward. I'd also play Cameron in CDM if we're playing to win.
Yedlin had a good game. Zardes worked hard but the attack was neutered from square one.
Maybe JK is trying to push Wondo closer to suicide. Some really sick shit to start him in this game. Let him have a last moment in qualifying if you fucking must but what the fuck is owed to this awful player?
Done with Bradley, 100%. Phase him out. Hyndman, Nagbe, doesn't matter. I'm not sure he is even a better passer than Beckerman. About to turn 29, not the future anymore.
Hopefully we can be competitive in the 3rd place game with an opponent that may be coasting after missing out on the final.
Maybe JK is trying to push Wondo closer to suicide. Some really sick shit to start him in this game. Let him have a last moment in qualifying if you fucking must but what the fuck is owed to this awful player?
Done with Bradley, 100%. Phase him out. Hyndman, Nagbe, doesn't matter. I'm not sure he is even a better passer than Beckerman. About to turn 29, not the future anymore.
Hopefully we can be competitive in the 3rd place game with an opponent that may be coasting after missing out on the final.
If we want to go weird.... Use that but Zardes for Dempsey and Kitchen for Bradley.
CHAOS IS A LADDER
Edit- let the kid start in goal too.
The gap in talent between the US and Argentina is enormous - Di Maria, Pastore, Aguero all unused subs. Gaitan was suspended. Disgusting.
The chance for the US to win was always quite small. That being said, it's disappointing that the US basically had no plan for this game whatsoever. Starting Wondo was an obviously terrible move and served no purpose. Zardes should have started alongside Dempsey from the start.
But even if Klinsmann had made all the right moves, you can't beat Argentina when a guy like Bradley totally shits the bed. Our midfield was utterly incapable of dealing with Argentina's press and the Wondo/Dempsey combo was completely (and predictably) incapable of providing any relief through hold-up play or speed threats.
In all, making it to the SF is a good result for the US. While I think the players and the manager should have put up a better effort against Argentina, you can't overreact to a thumping by such a good team. Now we see whether we can build on the positives that we've seen during the tournament.
The chance for the US to win was always quite small. That being said, it's disappointing that the US basically had no plan for this game whatsoever. Starting Wondo was an obviously terrible move and served no purpose. Zardes should have started alongside Dempsey from the start.
But even if Klinsmann had made all the right moves, you can't beat Argentina when a guy like Bradley totally shits the bed. Our midfield was utterly incapable of dealing with Argentina's press and the Wondo/Dempsey combo was completely (and predictably) incapable of providing any relief through hold-up play or speed threats.
In all, making it to the SF is a good result for the US. While I think the players and the manager should have put up a better effort against Argentina, you can't overreact to a thumping by such a good team. Now we see whether we can build on the positives that we've seen during the tournament.
I think the overall tournament performance is a positive takeaway. Given that we came into the game without 2 key pieces (and Bedoya has actually had a very good tournament), and the replacements were far from world class, that was about what to expect.
Sub par lineup, shit performance, great opponent...nothing surprising with the result
I think it was a success if Klinsmann learns from what worked and starts looking for better players to execute it.
Was it two or three of the goals that started from bad Bradley turnovers?
His time is not done, but I really hope somebody knocks him out of the starting 11 before Russia.
His time is not done, but I really hope somebody knocks him out of the starting 11 before Russia.
On the whole I feel great about the tourney. Clearly figured something good out with Wood up top and getting farther away from our horrid lone striker tradition. Solid back line. Tonight's miscue aside, Brooks has been a stud.
The midfield, however, is a pressing issue. JJJ runs so hot and cold and is soccer-ancient. Bradley was not good in this tournament, not just tonight. Can't be trusted with the ball; how do you keep running out a CM like that? The increasingly rare moments of quality are simply not worth it anymore. One of the most irresponsible passers of the ball within his own 18-30 that I've ever seen. And it's only exacerbated by his toothless service and poor vision/decisionmaking in the attacking third.
The midfield, however, is a pressing issue. JJJ runs so hot and cold and is soccer-ancient. Bradley was not good in this tournament, not just tonight. Can't be trusted with the ball; how do you keep running out a CM like that? The increasingly rare moments of quality are simply not worth it anymore. One of the most irresponsible passers of the ball within his own 18-30 that I've ever seen. And it's only exacerbated by his toothless service and poor vision/decisionmaking in the attacking third.
I think next year in the Premier League Bournemouth is gonna be the lower half of the table team where I watch every game, because the USMNT desperately needs someone with the skills Hyndman's supposed to have in that midfield. We need him to really raise his game soon.
The 4th goal said it all. 3 or 4 guys having trouble passing while getting harassed by one opponent, then a bad turnover leads to a goal.
Talent-wise, it wasn't a contest, but you don't need to make it easy on them by your inability to make simple passes that any professional should be able to complete.
Talent-wise, it wasn't a contest, but you don't need to make it easy on them by your inability to make simple passes that any professional should be able to complete.
Bradley showed much of the same last game but he had a HORRIBLE tournament. Pretty shocking stuff.
What a shit lineup and predictable outcome.
What a shit lineup and predictable outcome.
Here's my take on our players tonight:
GK: Guzan was worthless, Argentina exposed every negative tendency that he has. Leave aside him stranding himself in no-man's land on the first goal - his feet weren't even set when Lavezzi made contact, he was in the air, he had no shot to react. Wrong-footed to his side of the goal on the 2nd, although I agree only 2-3 keepers in the world have a real shot at that one. Gives up a juicy rebound on the 3rd that Howard maybe corrals. 4th was not his fault at all.
CBs: Cameron was probably our best player, not that that's saying much. Brooks did some great work out there too. Definitely looked like they belonged on the field, had confidence in their passing even in crowded areas, and just the right amount of aggression.
FBs: FJ looked OK at times but seemed too content to just lob balls to nobody to clear rather than trying to find an outlet pass and keep possession. Also had a few ugly turnovers. Yedlin didn't look overmatched, but is likely responsible for the 1st goal (failed to cover Lavezzi after Beckerman's tackle-pass right to Messi), and bears a lot of responsibility for the 4th (Bradley made a tentative, telegraphed pass to him right in front of the 18, and he... let it go through his legs for a breakaway turnover). Still, he provided one hell of a dangerous moment on an overlap with Zardes, beat Rojo, got to the 6... and then had no cutback option. But not half bad!
MFs: The less said about Bradley the better. Beckerman played to expectations, which were low - I liked the sub in favor of moving Cameron up. Zusi didn't look half bad out there, had some nice passes and control.
Wings: Zardes worked his ass off, did some nice hold-up play, got into dangerous positions in the corners, and pressured the D (But had no help so it rarely mattered). Ashlyn Harris at least had the decency to make way for Pulisic, who came the closest to a shot on goal of anyone.
Dempsey proved once again that he's not a CF. If he had had Pulisic and Zardes as wingers with Wood in front of him, we might have stood a chance of threatening more than twice all game. But he was entirely erased by Masch, Otamendi and Funes Mori.
I wish I understood better what has happened to Bradley - that wasn't just a matter of being deked by world-class players a few times. He had the yips. I mean, watch the highlights vs Germany almost exactly a year ago. His cross to set up Mix at 1'35" was gorgeous. His highlights in the 2nd half were pinpoint. Yeah, it was a friendly, but it was vs a world class side starting most of its first team, and he didn't just look like he belonged, he was the primary reason the US won. 12 months later and he looks like the ghost of Pablo Mastroeni out there. I mean seriously, what in the name of Pele's ballbag happened to him?
GK: Guzan was worthless, Argentina exposed every negative tendency that he has. Leave aside him stranding himself in no-man's land on the first goal - his feet weren't even set when Lavezzi made contact, he was in the air, he had no shot to react. Wrong-footed to his side of the goal on the 2nd, although I agree only 2-3 keepers in the world have a real shot at that one. Gives up a juicy rebound on the 3rd that Howard maybe corrals. 4th was not his fault at all.
CBs: Cameron was probably our best player, not that that's saying much. Brooks did some great work out there too. Definitely looked like they belonged on the field, had confidence in their passing even in crowded areas, and just the right amount of aggression.
FBs: FJ looked OK at times but seemed too content to just lob balls to nobody to clear rather than trying to find an outlet pass and keep possession. Also had a few ugly turnovers. Yedlin didn't look overmatched, but is likely responsible for the 1st goal (failed to cover Lavezzi after Beckerman's tackle-pass right to Messi), and bears a lot of responsibility for the 4th (Bradley made a tentative, telegraphed pass to him right in front of the 18, and he... let it go through his legs for a breakaway turnover). Still, he provided one hell of a dangerous moment on an overlap with Zardes, beat Rojo, got to the 6... and then had no cutback option. But not half bad!
MFs: The less said about Bradley the better. Beckerman played to expectations, which were low - I liked the sub in favor of moving Cameron up. Zusi didn't look half bad out there, had some nice passes and control.
Wings: Zardes worked his ass off, did some nice hold-up play, got into dangerous positions in the corners, and pressured the D (But had no help so it rarely mattered). Ashlyn Harris at least had the decency to make way for Pulisic, who came the closest to a shot on goal of anyone.
Dempsey proved once again that he's not a CF. If he had had Pulisic and Zardes as wingers with Wood in front of him, we might have stood a chance of threatening more than twice all game. But he was entirely erased by Masch, Otamendi and Funes Mori.
I wish I understood better what has happened to Bradley - that wasn't just a matter of being deked by world-class players a few times. He had the yips. I mean, watch the highlights vs Germany almost exactly a year ago. His cross to set up Mix at 1'35" was gorgeous. His highlights in the 2nd half were pinpoint. Yeah, it was a friendly, but it was vs a world class side starting most of its first team, and he didn't just look like he belonged, he was the primary reason the US won. 12 months later and he looks like the ghost of Pablo Mastroeni out there. I mean seriously, what in the name of Pele's ballbag happened to him?
They were totally gassed by then. Which is partially a talent pool / depth problem. Despite the extra day of rest, Argentina was fresher because they are deeper.
And more talented. Brooks might make their top 11 - anyone else? Argentina has a ton of great players, led by the best player ever. I'm glad we didn't lose 6-0 so we can make fun of Mexico for the next six months. But we were always gonna lose - those guys are fucking great.
Anyway, we don't have enough talent. Brooks blossomed, Yedlin showed flashes and growing pains, the third place game should give Pulisic and Nagbe a start in a meaningful tournament game. Positives abound. Getting our asses whipped by Messi and what should be the favorites in Russia 2018 is no shame in my book.
Bradley was awful tonight but he was fine against Ecuador the other night, and also against Costa Rica. If I had to grade his matches they would be Colombia-4, Costa Rica-7, Paraguay-5, Ecuador-6, Argentina-3. Maddening inconsistency. On counters and diagonal passing he's been good, but on close passing he rushes a lot, including not feinting or otherwise avoiding being predictable. He just needs to be patient on the ball, which is hard when you are the focus of midfield and other teams focused on stopping you. He often has a guy hounding him, so even when he's all alone, it seems like he feels like he's covered, and shoots a shitty quick pass before realizing he's got time. Usually you tell a guy to not be cute with the ball but he could use some cuteness, instead of just passing so quickly. I'd also like to see him be more physical, he's a big dude but isn't using his body to shield the ball well at all.
Also, this is for the team as a whole but throughout the tourney the lack of cross-field passes to switch field and reduce pressure is aggravating. Maybe I've been spoiled by watching Euro but we almost never do that. If guys aren't going to show for the ball you have do something or else the opponent will surround and hound
Also, this is for the team as a whole but throughout the tourney the lack of cross-field passes to switch field and reduce pressure is aggravating. Maybe I've been spoiled by watching Euro but we almost never do that. If guys aren't going to show for the ball you have do something or else the opponent will surround and hound
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I would subscribe to your newsletter, but Bradley couldn't hit Argentina (the country) with free kicks tonight either.
I know he's the captain but Bradley shouldn't be taking free kicks. Zusi is better at them,and Bradley is a big target to have in the box
Yeah, I mean, there was a time when Bradley was our best free kick taker but he's so off the boil right now that he can't have that responsibility.
The midfield is a disaster and probably will be for the foreseeable future. I keep coming back to Guzan in my head, though. Most of our best moments, maybe all of them, in the recent cycle have been built on the back of Howard playing like a man possessed. It's not that Guzan is a particularly bad keeper, but we need far better than that to stand a chance in any game like this one. Howard had a rough year at Everton and the year off thing was strange. But I truly believe he was the better keeper for this tournament and that we had better have a better keeper than Guzan by the next one.
Also, all the talk leading up to this game was about how the US has to give it a go, play free and without fear of the opponent. Then Klinsmann goes and selects the safest XI possible from the available pool? You can't ask your players to play with bravery and courage while selecting a team for safeness. Without a doubt, if he had started, say, Nagbe last night and the result ended up the same (and if we're being honest, it probably would have) there probably would have been a narrative about how he took an unnecessary risk. But that's the type of courage he was preaching before the match and the type of courage we probably needed. There was no formation last night that was going to win. No swap of one player for another, so I can't get overly angry. But it annoys me all the same.
The midfield is a disaster and probably will be for the foreseeable future. I keep coming back to Guzan in my head, though. Most of our best moments, maybe all of them, in the recent cycle have been built on the back of Howard playing like a man possessed. It's not that Guzan is a particularly bad keeper, but we need far better than that to stand a chance in any game like this one. Howard had a rough year at Everton and the year off thing was strange. But I truly believe he was the better keeper for this tournament and that we had better have a better keeper than Guzan by the next one.
Also, all the talk leading up to this game was about how the US has to give it a go, play free and without fear of the opponent. Then Klinsmann goes and selects the safest XI possible from the available pool? You can't ask your players to play with bravery and courage while selecting a team for safeness. Without a doubt, if he had started, say, Nagbe last night and the result ended up the same (and if we're being honest, it probably would have) there probably would have been a narrative about how he took an unnecessary risk. But that's the type of courage he was preaching before the match and the type of courage we probably needed. There was no formation last night that was going to win. No swap of one player for another, so I can't get overly angry. But it annoys me all the same.
We were always going to lose, but zero shots and one corner? We had zilch going forward. I would have been fine with parking the bus and countering, but the lineup had one speedy non-defender (Zardes), so that wasn't really an option. We are going to play another superior team in the third place game. They played above their heads against Colombia in the opener, it was closer than the score indicated, but I'm frankly terrified if they try to play possession against Chile.
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Chile is winning today, you can set your watch by it. Current odds only have them a 5-10% favorite but that Mexico result was more their doing than Mexico's failing. So when we play Colombia for the third time in three weeks, maybe we can concoct a winning strategy this time.
The biggest disappointment last night has to be player selection. Having 3 older immobile guys in Zusi, Beckerman, and Wondo gives you no chance to defend effectively, especially with 2 of them in MF. The fact that Nagbe wasn't selected or that Besler wasn't inserted is criminal IMO. Would it have made the world of difference, no but having a team that can't close anything in MF is always going to make the game difficult whether it's against Argentina or any other team more talented than the US. If JK was serious about being brave, he needs to take a look in the mirror. His player selection was anything but.
Other thoughts:
-Guzan totally botched the first goal - unacceptable for a professional keeper at this level.
-Messi's free kick was amazing, but I honestly do think a handful of keepers in the world make that save and Howard would've dealt with it better. Get beat over the wall if you must, but from Messi at that distance, cover at least half the goal.
-The biggest thing the US could've changed this game was overall team speed - nothing was being closed out even in the defensive third.
-For the US to punch above their weight in a game like this, they need to learn how to play a compact and tight defense and make short passes in a coordinated way to work the ball out after a tackle. Italy's upcoming match against Spain will be a fine example of this. They may not do it well because Spain is a lot better than Italy IMO, but they will show how it could and should work. Also note that Italy plays a 3-5-2.
-Bradley had a horrific game, but the MF around him also highlighted all his weaknesses. It's a shame we didn't get to see the Bedoya, JJ, Bradley MF against Arg because they played a good game against Ecuador.
-Having Beckerman and Zusi in the MF hurt on defense since they couldn't close anything quickly, but it also severely limited passing options once a tackle was made. Simply put, having slow players with bad workrate in the MF was the death knell for this game (it all circles back to bad player selection by JK).
-Argentina is very good and while the offense was solid this game, the defense really shined. They pressed cohesively and the US couldn't retain any possession or string together any passes. The US played like butt, but a lot of that has to do with Argentina's tremendous workrate and press.
-Higuain is on some kind of form. He lulled Brooks to sleep on the 4th goal before making a diagonal run away from the cross. Also some incredible coordination by Fernandez (Banega?) on that cross.
-If Fernandez is out for the final, I think that presents a pretty sizable problem for Argentina. He's started 4/5 games and has been a swiss army knife for this team. With him going out, Argentina likely plays Biglia in the MF with Masche and Banega. If they want to go hyper aggessive, they could play Lamela in MF, but he has exclusively been subbed off for wingers in the Copa. Kranevitter is also a option, but he is more of a destroyer and having him and Masche in the lineup is probably not ideal.
Other thoughts:
-Guzan totally botched the first goal - unacceptable for a professional keeper at this level.
-Messi's free kick was amazing, but I honestly do think a handful of keepers in the world make that save and Howard would've dealt with it better. Get beat over the wall if you must, but from Messi at that distance, cover at least half the goal.
-The biggest thing the US could've changed this game was overall team speed - nothing was being closed out even in the defensive third.
-For the US to punch above their weight in a game like this, they need to learn how to play a compact and tight defense and make short passes in a coordinated way to work the ball out after a tackle. Italy's upcoming match against Spain will be a fine example of this. They may not do it well because Spain is a lot better than Italy IMO, but they will show how it could and should work. Also note that Italy plays a 3-5-2.
-Bradley had a horrific game, but the MF around him also highlighted all his weaknesses. It's a shame we didn't get to see the Bedoya, JJ, Bradley MF against Arg because they played a good game against Ecuador.
-Having Beckerman and Zusi in the MF hurt on defense since they couldn't close anything quickly, but it also severely limited passing options once a tackle was made. Simply put, having slow players with bad workrate in the MF was the death knell for this game (it all circles back to bad player selection by JK).
-Argentina is very good and while the offense was solid this game, the defense really shined. They pressed cohesively and the US couldn't retain any possession or string together any passes. The US played like butt, but a lot of that has to do with Argentina's tremendous workrate and press.
-Higuain is on some kind of form. He lulled Brooks to sleep on the 4th goal before making a diagonal run away from the cross. Also some incredible coordination by Fernandez (Banega?) on that cross.
-If Fernandez is out for the final, I think that presents a pretty sizable problem for Argentina. He's started 4/5 games and has been a swiss army knife for this team. With him going out, Argentina likely plays Biglia in the MF with Masche and Banega. If they want to go hyper aggessive, they could play Lamela in MF, but he has exclusively been subbed off for wingers in the Copa. Kranevitter is also a option, but he is more of a destroyer and having him and Masche in the lineup is probably not ideal.
Two things on all that is written above.
First, as insane as it is to write it, I honestly don't believe that there is a goalie on the planet who could have stopped Messi's free kick. You have to go back to Michel Platini in his prime to get anything close to that. You had the wall leaping and obscuring the spin of the ball until the last second, the perfect placement and an unreal velocity. I am still in awe.
Mike, you think Argentina are the favorites? Messi will have a LOT of wear on the treads at that time. You may be right, but I'm surprised.
First, as insane as it is to write it, I honestly don't believe that there is a goalie on the planet who could have stopped Messi's free kick. You have to go back to Michel Platini in his prime to get anything close to that. You had the wall leaping and obscuring the spin of the ball until the last second, the perfect placement and an unreal velocity. I am still in awe.
Mike, you think Argentina are the favorites? Messi will have a LOT of wear on the treads at that time. You may be right, but I'm surprised.
Argentina are not a young team. Of the 20 outfield players they selected for the Copa, only 7 will be under 30 for Russia 2018, and that 7 does not include Messi, Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, or Mascherano, who are probably their 5 most talented players. This is by far their best remaining chance to win a major competition with their current core.
Of course, the old guys could put it together for a tournament run in 2018 (like France did in 2006), and, since it's Argentina, they'll probably have 5 or 6 promising new stars breaking into the squad in the next two years. But compared to the young talent in France (Pogba, Kante, Coman, Martial, Varane, Sakho, Zouma, Griezman, etc) or even even (LOL) England (Kane, Alli, Barkley, Dier, Wilshere, Sterling, Stones, Shaw, etc.), and with the Spanish and German cores still strong, I'm not sure Argentina should be favorites for 2018. Probably France should be.
To be fair, Messi, Higuain, Aguero, and Di Maria will all be exactly 30, a few of them only by a few weeks. They won't be relying on 33-year-olds like France in 2006. They really only need to layer in 2-3 younger players into the squad that started yesterday. Dybala is looking like a monster and probably should have been not just in the Copa squad but a starter over Lavezzi. At least one of Correa, Icardi, or Vietto will probably blossom as a striker in the next couple years. If Kranevitter develops under Simone into the Mascherano replacement, they'll be in good shape there too. I don't know if they should be favorites but I think they are in at least as good shape as England, France, Spain, or Germany from two years away.
Funes Mori, Rojo, Musacchio, Kranevitter, Pereyra, Lanzini, Lamela, Correa, Dybala, Icardi, Vietto, along with Messi and another few vets (Otamendi, Banega, Aguero, Higuain) seems like it should still form the core of a competitive squad for WC '18. That's just who's standing out now as well and there's a lot of firepower on that list.
Edit: to play devil's advocate to MMS, while those standouts will be 30, these competitions require lots of running by either having a young squad or having a deep squad and rotating. I think as we both just showed that this team will likely be deep regardless, so Argentina's talent pool isn't going anywhere any time soon.
Edit: to play devil's advocate to MMS, while those standouts will be 30, these competitions require lots of running by either having a young squad or having a deep squad and rotating. I think as we both just showed that this team will likely be deep regardless, so Argentina's talent pool isn't going anywhere any time soon.
I'm not saying they won't still be good, I'm just saying I don't think they should currently be favorites.
Even more oddly, both matches were played at the same site (San Fran) that opening weekend.