Celtics vs Da Culture - Round 1 (FIGHT!)
- Thread starter Ed Hillel
- Start date
There's really no excuse for playing KP and Al together against these Heat lineups. They're just not equipped to guard the perimeter aggressively enough. I would rather see minutes with Hauser and Tatum at the 5 than more two bigs (although no reason to do this unless KP and Al are both playing like ass). Hauser has game changing gravity on offense and the right length and motor to challenge aggressively on the perimeter. I'd really like to see more Sam and less PP, especially if the latter isn't even going to look at the rim or play with pace.
Another simple adjustment I think could help would be to stop subbing Tatum out 7 minutes into the game. I know he carries a heavy load, but the regular season is over and he needs to be in there to set the tone early.
Another simple adjustment I think could help would be to stop subbing Tatum out 7 minutes into the game. I know he carries a heavy load, but the regular season is over and he needs to be in there to set the tone early.
It wasn’t only you and this goes back to my talk of “players play and coaches coach.” During one of the breaks Joe was interviewed by the sideline reporter and he deadpanned exactly what his team needed to do, “Get stops and get out in transition.”
Even when we were getting stops you didn’t see that commitment to numbers as we’ve had at times during the regular season. I think the players will respond better to this in G3 even if it is away from the friendly confines.
Playing fast negates Miami from getting set in their defense. All night Scal was imploring them to drive and kick and they just didn't do it enough. There was way too much of the ball stopping trying to find the best mismatch to exploit. Move the ball around and there will be an open shot every time against Miami because the personnel is just so much better than them.
Bill isn't wrong with the on-ball defensive intensity (the off-ball defense was also lousy)
BUT it really was "whelp they made 3s"
3300 playoff games over the last 4 decades. 23 made threes by a team has only been bettered 3X
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xIms7Sj44I
I’m only about 15 minutes in but this is really good contentBill isn't wrong with the on-ball defensive intensity (the off-ball defense was also lousy)
BUT it really was "whelp they made 3s"
3300 playoff games over the last 4 decades. 23 made threes by a team has only been bettered 3X
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xIms7Sj44I
I wonder how good our perimeter defense actually is.
Jrue Holiday is 33 years old, with a ton of playoff miles on his tires. Derrick White turns 30 in a couple months, and was never a speed merchant, but a bigger, bulkier guard. Both have been banged up this year. Porzingis is a plodder. Are JT and JB, playing the most athletic position on the floor, truly that much above the average quickness for an NBA wing? JB particularly, seems more like a strength guy at this point.
Are we a slow team? And getting roasted from 3 because we're too worried about being blown by on the drive?
Jrue Holiday is 33 years old, with a ton of playoff miles on his tires. Derrick White turns 30 in a couple months, and was never a speed merchant, but a bigger, bulkier guard. Both have been banged up this year. Porzingis is a plodder. Are JT and JB, playing the most athletic position on the floor, truly that much above the average quickness for an NBA wing? JB particularly, seems more like a strength guy at this point.
Are we a slow team? And getting roasted from 3 because we're too worried about being blown by on the drive?
Our perimeter defense is better than it was last year that is for sure. Herro got bottled up on Sunday afternoon by whoever was guarding him. Last night, they just did not show up on defense on the perimeter.
Jrue doesn't really have a ton of playoff miles though. 2700 minutes and only one deep playoff run. As a comparison, Tatum already has over 3700 playoff minutes played
This isn't really to do with load - I think the idea behind it is to get Tatum some run against the other team's reserves. Tatum checked out when Horford checked in, so his absence overlapped with some terrible double big play.
Jrue is also the 5th option on offense now (vs 2 or 3 when he was younger) so he should, presumably, be able to expend a ton of energy on defense and really be a difference maker there.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C_9QqLrGqk
This guy goes over every 3pt attempt by Miami and the Celtic's defense (obv.not pretty)
I'll save everybody the suspense... Jrue was gawd awful
This guy goes over every 3pt attempt by Miami and the Celtic's defense (obv.not pretty)
I'll save everybody the suspense... Jrue was gawd awful
They were the 2nd rated Defense in the NBA this season. So they are somewhere between a very good to great Defense (when engaged).
Last night was little-effort or brain-dead play, sometimes both.
Can't imagine CJM schemed for these guys to float around in the paint, ball watch, & lose connection with their man.
While not saying that BOS gave max effort last night, here's an Athletic article that discusses the scheme BOS used in G2 and how CJM is thinking about it: https://theathletic.com/5444030/2024/04/25/heat-celtics-game-2-defense-adjustment/.
To understand what went wrong, you have to look at how Boston closed out. The Celtics were soft, on purpose.
Instead of taking hard closeouts where they aggressively run shooters off the line, they went with mostly soft closeouts where they stopped short to prevent the drive and moderately contest the shot.
“We’re going to have to find the balance, because a lot of those guys who made shots tonight are also good drivers, especially getting downhill,” Mazzulla said. “And so we’re going to have to find that balance of making sure we close out appropriately, but we don’t want to start opening up the other side of that. So that’ll be the adjustment.”
The key to that adjustment is whether to switch from a soft to a hard close out on Miami’s role players. Boston’s game plan on Caleb Martin, Jamie Jacquez Jr., Nikola Jović, and Haywood Highsmith was to soft close.
“The guys that we wanted to shoot, not that we let them, but it wasn’t like a get out to them and put it on the ground,” Jrue Holiday said. “It was kind of like protect the basket but still get a closeout, but they started knocking them in.”
It will be interesting to see what adjustments CJM and staff make for G3. I also expect BOS to come out with a lot more intensity - they way they've bounced back from losses all year.
That's an interesting article, and explains some of the different perceptions I've seen between (roughly) "bad defense" and "make or miss league" as diagnoses.
Given Game 1 success, I'm a bit surrpised they adjusted the coverage for Game 2, and then it didn't work. So that is also one I reflect on - it's not bad to be proactive, but in this case the adjustment backfired. So whether they should have changed sooner comes up for me.
Generally have been impressed by CJM this year, and expect Game 3 will look different (and better). But I think we lost to coaching battle game 2, in addition to Miami shooting above their heads
Given Game 1 success, I'm a bit surrpised they adjusted the coverage for Game 2, and then it didn't work. So that is also one I reflect on - it's not bad to be proactive, but in this case the adjustment backfired. So whether they should have changed sooner comes up for me.
Generally have been impressed by CJM this year, and expect Game 3 will look different (and better). But I think we lost to coaching battle game 2, in addition to Miami shooting above their heads
So, this kind of flies in the face of what some have been saying in here to defend CJM...they were purposely giving those guys shots. For a guy that's obsessed with math and winning the math game, that's a very odd scheme to dial up. The Heat are such a talent deficit that one of the few ways they can win is going nuts from 3. Having a gameplan that invites the possibility of shooters getting comfortabe and allowing this seems very weird.
Yup. This smells like a coach backing up his players to take the heat off of them while placing it on himself. He’s become very good at this which is part of the reason his players back him so much in interviews. Let’s see if this works to get his guys ready tomorrow. Should be telling.
Not sure what you mean here. Everything I've heard says that BOS used the same coverage in G1; MIA didn't shoot well (actually a couple of guys turned down open 3Ps); and they won. Of course they were playing from ahead too.
The math game can come in different ways. They wanted to close soft to prevent the driving to force rotation and get the ball to wide-open shooters or easy buckets off of cuts. I have no idea the merits of that strategy compared to the one described in the article but I have to assume that CJM and staff has some information that suggests this was the proper way to defend the MIA players who were going to play.
From my perspective, the close-outs aren't the major issue. There are two major issues that CJM has to tackle:
(1) The Herro-Bam PnR killed them. If BOS can't figure out how to guard this - and Bam's moving screens - this thread is going to be insanely long. If BOS can't figure out how to guard that action with KP on the floor it might mean reducing KP's minutes even further.
(2) Get KP going again. As Karalis mentioned, KP's sweep move isn't getting any fouls called (maybe the refs feel like he's initiating contact) so if that's going to be the way G3 is officiated, he's got to stop going to that move. He's also going to have to figure out how to deal with the increased physicality as in G2 he went to the ground several times and didn't get fouls called. (They should have Tillman play him super physical in practice.
).
And that first one will be on the coaching staff if they cannot figure it out during this series. With no Butler, no excuse to let this problem be an issue for an entire series.
I thought they were much softer on the drop in game 2, and have read others with same assessment. It is subjective though---once you're in drop, how far and how soft is hard to calculate so it is a perception game.
It was interesting to me in the game thread I was on the 'it's a bit of a defense and a bit of shooting luck' and the majority of the thread was focused on the defense part...just illustrating people saw this all differently.
Much softer in every aspect of the game not only in drop which makes me believe this is pure coachspeak to protect his players. Their close outs were consistent with their 2H effort and toughness throughout. Lacking.
Good point. And in the regular season it was also largely about playing Tatum next to our reserves, specifically PP Hauser and Big Bird. In the two games so far Tatum and Jrue have come out together for Al and PP so it's not like they're even leveraging Tatum with the weakest role player. I think Sam has developed enough to trust him in most situations, but the Pritchard minutes have always been best served by playing him with Tatum.
Protect the basket against what? Who on that team scares you with their dribble penetration?
I think the only way the Celtics can possibly lose this series is if they give their shooters open looks on 3s. So that was a bold strategy in Game 2, Cotton.
I think the only way the Celtics can possibly lose this series is if they give their shooters open looks on 3s. So that was a bold strategy in Game 2, Cotton.
Last edited:
Right,a nd if I read your subtext correctly you're saying it's less the scheme than players effort. Which I wouldn't disagree with
This.
The Heat don’t have a single blow by player. Their “point guards” are Jaime Jaquez and Tyler Herro. Jaquez wasn’t a blow by guy even in college.
I mean, I would think you WANT this iteration of the Heat to try and drive to the basket. I think the only person you’d be scared of is maybe Tyler Herro? Maybe Caleb Martin?
Yes 100% effort and lack of urgency especially during halftime where it was easy to say…”Here’s a team we crushed on Sunday, without Butler, they shot lights out in the 1H and we’re still up 3. We good.” As Ed says above….who the heck’s dribble penetration are we afraid of on that team? The only guy was on the bench in steeet clothes. It’s almost always coach speak and there isn’t much doubt to me that this was.
As a casual basketball fan, it looks to me like the team pretty much turtled after that attempted cheap shot on Tatum. They look afraid to get near anybody. Again, I don’t know anything about basketball but that’s how it looks to me. They got smacked in the mouth and too intimidated physically to respond, and think their skill will win out in the end. We’ll see how that works out.
Exactly. I feel like CJM was trying to anticipate Miami's adjustments to shoot more three's but he got too complicated about it and the players weren't totally sold when it wasn't working. Is it really a good plan to go with "half" closeouts? I've already seen how wide a spread there is on the interpretation of what is a good closeout and what isn't.
As Scal mentioned during the game, for most of the minutes the Celtics have way better players on the floor, man-for-man, than Miami does. Seems like they might have lost sight of that a bit.
I did say at the time (and will continue to say) that the game reminded me a lot of the LAL game without AD and LBJ - Cs gave up a lot of open 3Ps; thought they could turn it on; but never was able to turn off the spigot.
After giving myself more than 24 hours to think it over, my concern level is increased, but not by a lot.
Let's start out with the stuff that I don't think will carry over. Three-point variance feels like a trope at this point with the Celtics. It's easy to ascribe any result to the fact that it's a "make or miss league" now or something like that, but it definitely needs to be addressed. Not only did the Heat benefit from deep, but they also were a good jump-shooting team in general. The Heat only made six baskets at the rim. I'm not worried about the Heat sustaining that level of play going forward.
As for the stuff that should worry the Celtics, the Heat seemed to have found a defense that is particularly effective against the Celtics. Spoelstra has abandoned his zones and unleashed his best defender to play one-on-ones with almost anyone on the court. Luckily, there are not many (any?) elite rim protectors like Bam who can shut down Tatum or Brown by himself, so this strategy is possibly meaningless if the Celtics survive round one.
I also saw some troubling play from Porzingis and Holiday. I think Kristaps is more limited by playoff officiating, while some NBA nerds say Miami was exceptionally good at preventing entry passes. I'm not sure how effective Joe's adjustments will be here, so I put this in the bucket of "some concern."
Let's start out with the stuff that I don't think will carry over. Three-point variance feels like a trope at this point with the Celtics. It's easy to ascribe any result to the fact that it's a "make or miss league" now or something like that, but it definitely needs to be addressed. Not only did the Heat benefit from deep, but they also were a good jump-shooting team in general. The Heat only made six baskets at the rim. I'm not worried about the Heat sustaining that level of play going forward.
As for the stuff that should worry the Celtics, the Heat seemed to have found a defense that is particularly effective against the Celtics. Spoelstra has abandoned his zones and unleashed his best defender to play one-on-ones with almost anyone on the court. Luckily, there are not many (any?) elite rim protectors like Bam who can shut down Tatum or Brown by himself, so this strategy is possibly meaningless if the Celtics survive round one.
I also saw some troubling play from Porzingis and Holiday. I think Kristaps is more limited by playoff officiating, while some NBA nerds say Miami was exceptionally good at preventing entry passes. I'm not sure how effective Joe's adjustments will be here, so I put this in the bucket of "some concern."
Expecting Jrue to have a better series going forward seems realistic.
Miami is a terrible matchup for Porzingis though because Bam dominates him and the Heat are great at exploiting KPs weaknesses. Those post numbers are impressive in the regular season but its adult swim down low from here on out - the Celtics need to figure out how to adjust for it.
Miami is a terrible matchup for Porzingis though because Bam dominates him and the Heat are great at exploiting KPs weaknesses. Those post numbers are impressive in the regular season but its adult swim down low from here on out - the Celtics need to figure out how to adjust for it.
He had a great game 2, but the best thing that could happen to Miami (other than Butler making a miraculous recovery) is Herro getting hurt. The Heat are great at making deep playoff runs after Herro injuries.
100% agree that lower effort can make good gameplans look awful.
At a certain point, what does the Tatum/Brown/Horford core need in order to learn that you don't take things for granted in the playoffs? Somehow, Minny, OKC, Denver etc are all able to remember to try hard against weaker teams for two games in a row, but Tatum/Brown are on like their 30th time of learning the same lesson. And now the attitude is seemingly infecting other players.
I think they'll regroup, but something in the Boston water seems to cause brain worms.
Hey, if they want to shut him up, there's a way: the novel approach of winning playoff games against worse teams.
In fairness to JT/JB/Horford, the biggest offenders were KP and Jrue.
However, the core 3 definitely weren't as locked in on defense as you would like them to be in a home playoff game
You guys must be dying with this much time between games. This scheduling really sucks for fans.
It's given me time to enter the later stages of grief already. Now I'm peaceful, just floating towards the light.
Chief would probably travel with a key of weed and forget why he's in Miami. Send KG and The Truth.
it's opened up some time to get to know the Red Sox & follow the NFL draft