Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion

Who you got?

  • Celts in 4

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Celts in 5

    Votes: 69 32.5%
  • Celts in 6

    Votes: 106 50.0%
  • Celts in 7

    Votes: 25 11.8%
  • Bucks in 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bucks in 6

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Bucks in 7

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Total voters
    212
  • Poll closed .

4 6 3 DP

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There's good Jaylen and bad Jaylen, and he was awful yesterday. IME does have to have a better plan for when bad Jaylen appears to put him in a better position to succeed. They just seemed to be unable to do anything to stop him from what he was doing what seemed like ever time the ball found his hands. I'd expect a much better effort tomorrow.
 

Bleedred

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Jaylen Brown is an excellent volume scorer, and when he's penetrating against smaller or less athletic defenders, or posting them up/shooting over them, he is at his maximum value. He's also an excellent on the ball defender when he's mentally engaged, although he does lose focus a bit too often from my like. What he isn't is a smart basketball player. In fact, as smart as he is off the court, he's pretty dumb on it, with one of the lower basketball IQs on the team. If forced to think and make lots of hard basketball decisions, he will not excel. Against the Bucks, I don't think he should be a primary ballhandler trying to create. I think he needs to play off the ball much more frequently and make very quick decisions rather than try to process what the defense is doing. With help from his teammates, I think he's up to it, but I would not leave him on the floor without JT and ask that the offense run through him.
 

pjheff

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Any idea what those adjustments might be? I honestly can't think of much that's going to pull Giannis or Lopez out of the paint other than guys hitting their outside shots.
Udoka is going to have to look at pace, lineups, and actions. Maybe the C’s push the ball more to beat their bigs down the floor before they get set up in their half court defense. Perhaps he goes small to play Milwaukee’s size off the court. But it’s possible that in a league analytically driven to take shots at the rim and beyond the arc, the coaching staff is going to have to find ways to get its shotmaking wings better looks in the midrange.

How are you not getting that the celtics lost this game because they shot 10/34 for 2, almost all of those shots in the paint? If you shoot 16 more 3s than a team and you also make a higher percentage you're going to win any single game a vast majority of the time, especially when it doesn't come with giving up more points at the line.
You and I seem to be talking past one another. I understand math. I just don’t accept that our two options are to shoot more twos at 33% or more threes at 36%. The Bucks made two-pointers so unappetizing that the C’s settled for three-pointers, which is not their strength. They have to find ways to score more efficiently inside the arc.

The way to beat Milwaukee all year has been to hit your 3s. First because you can build a math problem on them, even if you don't hit at a really high rate, the differential builds up, and 2, if you do start hitting at a high rate, they have to adjust and it weakens their strong interior defense.

The real thing that was missing was hitting corner 3s, teams killed MIL by hitting corner 3s this year, the Celtics have one of the best corner 3 shooters in the league... he took 4 shots, none of them from the corner, two were from the side, he went 1-2.

Overall the Celtics took 5 corner 3s, and hit 3 of them.

The Celtics didn't take too many 3s, they just took too many bad 3s.
Marcus took 6, all from the top, wings, many deep... missed them all but 1 (the one closes to being side/corner).
Pritchard took 8, 7 from the top, all deep many early clock and not in the offense he made 1 of those 7, went 1-1 from the corner.
Jaylen went 1-7 from deep along the arc, 2-2 from corner/side.
The Celtics hit 36% of their threes. If the numbers I’m seeing are correct, they’re at 35.6% for both the season and the postseason. This team is too good at too many aspects of the game to let this series come down to a relative team weakness which an opponent is encouraging.
 

fairlee76

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3ps 5 + 6.
Thanks for all of these.

I watched the game on tape delay last night and was expecting to be wowed by the Bucks defense based on posts I saw in the game thread. But my main takeaways were the wide open 3s missed and the brutal games (as will happen) by JT and JB killed the Celts. Bucks are obviously a much better defensive team than the Nets but I was expecting them to be channeling the 2004 Pistons or the Celtics of last week and that I did not see.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Thanks for all of these.

I watched the game on tape delay last night and was expecting to be wowed by the Bucks defense based on posts I saw in the game thread. But my main takeaways were the wide open 3s missed and the brutal games (as will happen) by JT and JB killed the Celts. Bucks are obviously a much better defensive team than the Nets but I was expecting them to be channeling the 2004 Pistons or the Celtics of last week and that I did not see.
Yeah, what struck me was how many times JB and JT handed the ball to MIL for transition baskets. Clean up those and the game is much different. Of course, Giannis might figure out the Cs defense and go supernova but that, to me, was one of the worse games the Cs have played this year (even including the 2021 portion).

Maybe the Cs were just overhyped? It happens.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Celtics hit 36% of their threes. If the numbers I’m seeing are correct, they’re at 35.6% for both the season and the postseason. This team is too good at too many aspects of the game to let this series come down to a relative team weakness which an opponent is encouraging.
The Celtics were a 3pt shooting team all year, 11th in percentage of points from 3.
They were 21st in % of points from 2.... this team is not a team that succeeded by scoring from 2 in the half court.

If you split it out to Jan 1 and on (when the Celtics started their run) it's even more stark.... 7th from 3, 22nd from 2. They also shot 37.5% from 3 in that time, good for 3rd best in the league

The Celtics live on getting good 3pt looks and burying them... the Bucks have a great interior defense and they force 3s... their weakness is they give up too many GOOD 3s (corner from good shooters) if you stretch them out and run offense.

The Celtics just need to make better decisions and positioning.

Edit- the Celtics have a few not very good 3pt shooters, but they are actually one of the best teamwide 3pt shooting teams in the league, they should take a lot of 3s, they should just be assisted ones from good spots on the floor. Also get back on D when you miss, Pritchard had some I hated (others felt otherwise) because I felt they were outside the flow of the offense, so guys weren't positioned to rebound or get back, so he missed and MIL had breaks for either layups or wide open 3s of their own.
 

Saints Rest

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Jaylen Brown is an excellent volume scorer, and when he's penetrating against smaller or less athletic defenders, or posting them up/shooting over them, he is at his maximum value. He's also an excellent on the ball defender when he's mentally engaged, although he does lose focus a bit too often from my like. What he isn't is a smart basketball player. In fact, as smart as he is off the court, he's pretty dumb on it, with one of the lower basketball IQs on the team. If forced to think and make lots of hard basketball decisions, he will not excel. Against the Bucks, I don't think he should be a primary ballhandler trying to create. I think he needs to play off the ball much more frequently and make very quick decisions rather than try to process what the defense is doing. With help from his teammates, I think he's up to it, but I would not leave him on the floor without JT and ask that the offense run through him.
I agree with you across the board here. But one point that you left out, is that Jaylen is the best mid-range jump shooter on the Celtics. Getting him open at the elbow or thereabouts is a great shot for him.
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum had 16 potential assists yesterday (3 turnovers), only 6 were converted. Game 4 of the Nets series, he had 18 potential ones, and only 5 were converted. Those are the shots that the team will need to take more advantage of, if they’re going to beat the Bucks.

For the playoffs (14.2), only CP3, Morant, Giannis, and Harden are averaging more potential assists per game. But he needs to go up stronger in the paint, was 1-8 from 2 point range, that can’t happen again this series. Was only 61% at the rim against the Nets as well, which was down 14% from the regular season. You expect some drop-off, but that’s extreme, and needs to be better.
 

Bleedred

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Tatum had 16 potential assists yesterday (3 turnovers), only 6 were converted. Game 4 of the Nets series, he had 18 potential ones, and only 5 were converted. Those are the shots that the team will need to take more advantage of, if they’re going to beat the Bucks.

For the playoffs (14.2), only CP3, Morant, Giannis, and Harden are averaging more potential assists per game. But he needs to go up stronger in the paint, was 1-8 from 2 point range, that can’t happen again this series. Was only 61% at the rim against the Nets as well, which was down 14% from the regular season. You expect some drop-off, but that’s extreme, and needs to be better.
I think JT showed Giannis, Lopez and to a lesser extent Portis, too much respect in not going harder to the basket and forcing the officials to either swallow their whistles or make a call. Tatum has the skill and the strength to challenge Lopez at the rim, and can give Giannis some trouble too. Regardless, I agree that he has to go inside harder, and if that results in fouls, non-calls or assists/potential assists, we need to live with that.
 

radsoxfan

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I didn't see the Smart injury, but if the thigh "contusion" has a decent hematoma associated with it, that will be very painful. He can try to gut it out but it will limit him to some degree.

In general I thought the PP 3s were fine shots. He missed a few in a row when the game was slipping away, but he made the right play. If he makes one more of those open shots and goes 3-8 instead of 2-8, no one is complaining.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Jaylen Brown is an excellent volume scorer, and when he's penetrating against smaller or less athletic defenders, or posting them up/shooting over them, he is at his maximum value. He's also an excellent on the ball defender when he's mentally engaged, although he does lose focus a bit too often from my like. What he isn't is a smart basketball player. In fact, as smart as he is off the court, he's pretty dumb on it, with one of the lower basketball IQs on the team. If forced to think and make lots of hard basketball decisions, he will not excel. Against the Bucks, I don't think he should be a primary ballhandler trying to create. I think he needs to play off the ball much more frequently and make very quick decisions rather than try to process what the defense is doing. With help from his teammates, I think he's up to it, but I would not leave him on the floor without JT and ask that the offense run through him.
I agree with this and it’s compounded by the fact that he’s just not a fundamentally good passer. It was mentioned often in game threads this year - he just misses a lot.
 

Cellar-Door

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I didn't see the Smart injury, but if the thigh "contusion" has a decent hematoma associated with it, that will be very painful. He can try to gut it out but it will limit him to some degree.

In general I thought the PP 3s were fine shots. He missed a few in a row when the game was slipping away, but he made the right play. If he makes one more of those open shots and goes 3-8 instead of 2-8, no one is complaining.
I'd be complaining, he played bad defense and his shots came at times/places where the misses lead to runouts. Some of his shots were fine, but some I thought were very bad decisions not to run real offense.
 

NomarsFool

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OTOH I'm not a fan of water fasting, especially when playing sports, in high altitudes, or in the desert (like Los Angeles). It can lead to dehydration and cause cramping to the hamstrings/calves leading to pulls. It may be a contributor to Jaylen's hammy issue.
There's no real need to double click on this topic too much, because Ramadan is now certainly over and IF there was any impact, we shouldn't have it going forward.

But, I am a little surprised no one (apparently) took notice of whether Brown was hydrating during the game yesterday. Maybe the topic would be considered taboo for the media to talk about, but given the level of attention that everything related to sports seems to get, especially in big situations like the playoffs, you'd think it would have been noticed by someone (even someone who isn't officially media).
 

128

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I didn't see the Smart injury, but if the thigh "contusion" has a decent hematoma associated with it, that will be very painful. He can try to gut it out but it will limit him to some degree.

In general I thought the PP 3s were fine shots. He missed a few in a row when the game was slipping away, but he made the right play. If he makes one more of those open shots and goes 3-8 instead of 2-8, no one is complaining.
And if he goes 4 for 8, which is entirely possible given how he typically shoots, we're raving about his offensive contribution.
 

Deathofthebambino

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There's no real need to double click on this topic too much, because Ramadan is now certainly over and IF there was any impact, we shouldn't have it going forward.

But, I am a little surprised no one (apparently) took notice of whether Brown was hydrating during the game yesterday. Maybe the topic would be considered taboo for the media to talk about, but given the level of attention that everything related to sports seems to get, especially in big situations like the playoffs, you'd think it would have been noticed by someone (even someone who isn't officially media).
I've made it a point, particularly in the series against the Nets to watch for Jaylen (and Kyrie) in between timeouts, etc. and I've never seen Jaylen drink water during April until after halftime of the night games. Of course, tough to know for sure, but I was looking as much as possible.

Kyrie was disappearing from the bench area with regularity during the C's series, so who the hell knows what he was doing.
 

benhogan

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Since New Years' PP has shot 45% from 3. He entered the game with a couple of minutes to go in Q1, which is early for him. He's on the floor for one reason only.

8 shots isn't enough for him IMO and Grant needs to launch from the CornerOffice often
 
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Strike4

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I agree with this and it’s compounded by the fact that he’s just not a fundamentally good passer. It was mentioned often in game threads this year - he just misses a lot.
He's also a player who relies a ton on his athleticism and more often than not, that pays great dividends for the Celtics. But when he's having an off game for whatever reason, there's not much he can do in terms of adjustment and the downside in that case is huge. Big highs when things are going, big lows the few times they aren't (like yesterday).
 

Eddie Jurak

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Since New Years' PP has shot 45% from 3. He entered the game with a couple of minutes to go in Q1, which is early for him. He's on the floor for one reason only.

8 shots isn't enough for him IMO and Grant needs to launch from the CornerOffice often
This is half right - the Grant part.

The Celtics were 7 for 10 (or 6 for 8, depending on how you read the shot chart) on corner threes. They were 11 for 40 (or 12 for 42) on above the break threes.

Against a team whose defensive strategy is to concede threes, they should usually not tqke an above the break three early in the clock. (They can get it later if they need it). They did not take enough corner threes and did not always work for the best above the break ones.
 

radsoxfan

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I'd be complaining, he played bad defense and his shots came at times/places where the misses lead to runouts. Some of his shots were fine, but some I thought were very bad decisions not to run real offense.
Strong disagree.

You run offense in hopes you get a 41% 3 point shooter like PP open looks. If he makes an expected 3 or 4 instead of 2, no one is complaining. He got stuck with the ball end of shot clock a couple times but generally speaking his decision making was fine (in fact better than plenty of other Celtics)

Also, you think he should pass up an open look against a good D because the other 4 Celtics aren’t properly positioned for a miss? Nonsense talk.
 

NomarsFool

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One other change from the Nets series is that Boston could abuse Brooklyn on the boards. I didn’t check the box score, but the Bucks have a tall front court. They probably had three rebounders on the floor for much of the game better than anyone the Nets had out there for most of the series (I think Drummond was probably on the floor for less than half of the minutes - without looking at the box scores)
 

benhogan

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This is half right - the Grant part.

The Celtics were 7 for 10 (or 6 for 8, depending on how you read the shot chart) on corner threes. They were 11 for 40 (or 12 for 42) on above the break threes.

Against a team whose defensive strategy is to concede threes, they should usually not tqke an above the break three early in the clock. (They can get it later if they need it). They did not take enough corner threes and did not always work for the best above the break ones.
when you have Theis, White, Grant, Pritchard and a doubled Tatum on the floor at once...getting open 3s from Pritchard and Grant is a terrific outcome. PP was much better the last few months of the season so I'm playing that hand as much as possible

White or Tatum going 1 on 3 in the lane is going to lead to stripped transition TOs or inefficient/challenged 2s with no whistle

I've been preaching Corner3s as the most defensive bending shot for years so I'm down with that
 

chilidawg

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when you have Theis, White, Grant, Pritchard and a doubled Tatum on the floor at once...getting open 3s from Pritchard and Grant is a terrific outcome. PP was much better the last few months of the season so I'm playing that hand as much as possible

White or Tatum going 1 on 3 in the lane is going to lead to stripped transition TOs or inefficient/challenged 2s with no whistle

I've been preaching Corner3s as the most defensive bending shot for years so I'm down with that
But the corner 3 is usually effective when someone else draws the defense to create the open look. I'm all for Granite taking more, but it's not just up to him. I don't recall him turning shots down the other night.
 

benhogan

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But the corner 3 is usually effective when someone else draws the defense to create the open look. I'm all for Granite taking more, but it's not just up to him. I don't recall him turning shots down the other night.
absolutely, White/Tatum will initiate and draw... it's up to them to kick instead of going to the rim, attempting floaters, or challenged pull up mid-range jumpers.

When on the floor, Grant or Payton should be a top 3 offensive option. They usually aren't
 

Cesar Crespo

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Is there a way to look up most playoff games played under age 25? Most CF games played under 25?
 

Kliq

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Is there a way to look up most playoff games played under age 25? Most CF games played under 25?
Not sure what the record is exactly, but my first guess is Kobe, who played 98 games under the age of 25. Tatum currently has 55.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Good article with clips from CsBlog on how MIL played JT: https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/5/2/23052530/how-milwaukee-bucks-game-1-defense-built-to-stop-jayson-tatum-boston-celtics-giannis-antetokounmpo.

MIL is not letting JT beat them in the half-court. I think someone said upthread that MIL is playing JT a lot like BOS played KD. I'm sure Ime will have some adjustments but the best way to beat MIL's defense is to get out in transition.

BOS was killed in transition in G1. BOS has got to limit MIL in transition. Not throwing the ball away will help also. It will also help to put the ball to go in the basket.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Highest Tatum could finish on the list is tied for 3rd at 75 if the C's go 7 games in every series.

Lowest he could finish with a C's title is 10th, at 67 games. If the C's do win the title, I'm guessing they go something like 12-6 or 12-7 from here on out.

So with a C's title, he could finish somewhere between 67 to 75 games.
 

Brand Name

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Is there a way to look up most playoff games played under age 25? Most CF games played under 25?
Most playoff games before age 25 season, entering today:

Kobe 97
Tony Parker 90
Kawhi 75
Andrew Bynum 74
Ibaka, Darryl Dawkins 71
Magic, Jordan Farmer 69
Rondo, Harrison Barnes 64
JB, Capela, Cory Joseph 61
LeBron 60
Horry 57
Tatum, Harden, Richard Jefferson, BJ Armstrong, Big Baby 55

Most in Conference Final Games before 25:

Darryl Dawkins 24
Kobe 22
Magic 21
Jack Sikma, JB 18
BJ Armstrong, Jordan Farmer 17
Kawhi, Cory Joesph, Westphal 16
Ibaka 15
Jamaal Wilkes, Andrew Toney, Norris Cole, McHale 14
PG13, DJ, Lance Stephenson, Pippen, Horace Grant, Steven Adams, John Salley, Phil Smith, Greg Ballard, Howard Eisley, Tatum 13

FYI, while I didn’t use them for this, Statmuse as linked above is reliable and underutilized at large.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Most playoff games before age 25 season, entering today:

Kobe 97
Tony Parker 90
Kawhi 75
Andrew Bynum 74
Ibaka, Darryl Dawkins 71
Magic, Jordan Farmer 69
Rondo, Harrison Barnes 64
JB, Capela, Cory Joseph 61
LeBron 60
Horry 57
Tatum, Harden, Richard Jefferson, BJ Armstrong, Big Baby 55

Most in Conference Final Games before 25:

Darryl Dawkins 24
Kobe 22
Magic 21
Jack Sikma, JB 18
BJ Armstrong, Jordan Farmer 17
Kawhi, Cory Joesph, Westphal 16
Ibaka 15
Jamaal Wilkes, Andrew Toney, Norris Cole, McHale 14
PG13, DJ, Lance Stephenson, Pippen, Horace Grant, Steven Adams, John Salley, Phil Smith, Greg Ballard, Howard Eisley, Tatum 13

FYI, while I didn’t use them for this, Statmuse as linked above is reliable and underutilized at large.
Yeah I've used statmuse before. They are great. I thought Tatum would have been higher up on the CF one too. Though a 6 game ECF would put him 4th, which is pretty high.
 

radsoxfan

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Tough news on Smart.

Not too surprised, 48-72 hrs max inflammation on these. If he’s got a bad contusion/hematoma he would be very limited. Not only pain tolerance, would be very hard to run effectively, Good to have long gap til game 3 if they can salvage this one.

Derrick White redemption game?
 

Eddie Jurak

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Up to now in the playoffs, Smart had been averaging 36 minutes, White 19.6 minutes, Pritchard 11.4 minutes.

White if he can stay out of foul trouble can take on another 17 minutes. Pritchard could, in theory, take on the rest - bringing him up to ~30, but that means playing with the defensive weak spot they have previously managed to avoid limit.

Alternatively, Grant, at 29.6 minutes, could take on a few more. The Celtics could go bigger with Theis playing and Grant at the 3 for some minutes.

Given that the Celtics struggled with full court pressure, Milwaukee will likely come back with it again since the Celtics have fewer ballahndlers.

Really bad development. The question will be - do they fight, or is this the excuse to think about their offseason stuff? I have to think Smart will be back and ready on Saturday, but a 2-0 deficit is near insurmountable.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Really bad development. The question will be - do they fight, or is this the excuse to think about their offseason stuff? I have to think Smart will be back and ready on Saturday, but a 2-0 deficit is near insurmountable.
Awful development for sure but this is asinine. They’re not going to just throw their hands up and pack it in down 0-1 because Smart is out for a game.
 

Cellar-Door

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Celtics will need better out of Brown and White tonight.

Also... Pritchard needs to hit shots and they need to protect him from switches on D.
 

NomarsFool

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Will be very interesting to see if the Bucks are able to switch PP onto their bigger front court guys. Jrue did a lot of damage in game 1, obviously, but I'm overall less concerned about their backcourt than against Brooklyn for obvious reasons.
 

benhogan

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Ed Hillel

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Everyone has someone injured, suck it up and win, then come back healthy and win one of the next two.
 

fairlee76

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Awful development for sure but this is asinine. They’re not going to just throw their hands up and pack it in down 0-1 because Smart is out for a game.
I don't know man. JT might want to get back to his offseason lifting regimen ASAP. /sarcasm

If JB does JB things, White elevates his game a bit, and PP hits a few of his threes, they'll be in it.
 

Red Averages

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Really bad development. The question will be - do they fight, or is this the excuse to think about their offseason stuff? I have to think Smart will be back and ready on Saturday, but a 2-0 deficit is near insurmountable.
Has Ime lost his fastball?


It is a make or miss league. Today the Celtics didn’t brick everything and become frustrated enough to dribble 1 on 3 and turn it over leading to east buckets for Milwaukee. The energy level was great because the shots were falling. The offense in the first half was dominant. In the 2nd half they got complacent because they were always up 12+. But it’s a good reminder to them with 3 days off to keep moving the ball.

If I’m the Bucks and I see Granite and Al defending Giannis 1x1, and the Celtics able to go small with Grant stretching the floor, I’m not so confident as I head home. Also if I’m Ime I spend the next few days off working the refs about Giannis’s charges. He’s dipping his shoulder and being aggressive as his frustration grows. Celts will need to solve for the pick and rolls, but that seems fairly easy.

I thought Ime shortening the bench and not using Theis was really smart. Tatum didn’t even play well and this game was never in doubt.

Game 3 should be a grind, but if the Celtics can avoid shooting 30% on wide open 3s they have a good shot. I’d be shocked if the Bucks are favored by more than 3.

Edit- Bucks open -2.5 for game 3.
 
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