Okay. I mean, that just didn't really seem like something that needed examples of other under 6'3 guards to be funny.Well sure, that's why I was laughing.
Either way, Carsen is just the best guard in league. He doesn't need qualifier.
Okay. I mean, that just didn't really seem like something that needed examples of other under 6'3 guards to be funny.Well sure, that's why I was laughing.
Why do they lose Green if they keep Wannamaker? It's been pointed out that Strus' deal essentially makes him whole if he gets cut. It pays would he would have likely made on his 2-way.Unbelievably, they’re too deep. Again!
Waters is clearly better than Wannamaker right now. His handle and hesitation moves are already plus for the NBA. That guy is impressive.
Normally the easy answer is to put Waters in Maine. He can play every day, there’s no down side. Except that they probably lose Green if they keep Wannamaker, and Green can really play. Green himself is better than Semi, but Semi potentially fills more of a need in the actual rotation.
I said likely. Either way they were excited enough about Strus to give him the deal before they needed to. So they’ve put themselves in a position where they lose Green or Strus unless they’re willing to cut Wannamaker/Semi and promote Waters right away.Why do they lose Green if they keep Wannamaker? It's been pointed out that Strus' deal essentially makes him whole if he gets cut. It pays would he would have likely made on his 2-way.
I'm guessing Strus is the casualty here. Green is explosive and it's showed every time he has stepped on the court in Vegas/pre-season for the Celtics.I said likely. Either way they were excited enough about Strus to give him the deal before they needed to. So they’ve put themselves in a position where they lose Green or Strus unless they’re willing to cut Wannamaker/Semi and promote Waters right away.
All the hints one needs are right here in the contracts and transactions page. It appears obvious (to me anyway) that Danny has already made the decision to keep Strus as he guaranteed him $415k just 3 days ago so he isn't going anywhere. Barring a trade it will have to be Green who is released and paid $100k on the way out the door.I said likely. Either way they were excited enough about Strus to give him the deal before they needed to. So they’ve put themselves in a position where they lose Green or Strus unless they’re willing to cut Wannamaker/Semi and promote Waters right away.
In case it wasn't clear, I think this is right. Danny apparently believes Strus has the higher upside because of his shooting ability. He's on the team. The question I have is Wannamaker/Semi vs. Green.All the hints one needs are right here in the contracts and transactions page. It appears obvious (to me anyway) that Danny has already made the decision to keep Strus as he guaranteed him $415k just 3 days ago so he isn't going anywhere. Barring a trade it will have to be Green who is released and paid $100k on the way out the door.
It's not that clear. Strus' guarantee basically covers what he could have earned under the 2-way deal the C's promised him. ($385K if he spens max time with the big club).All the hints one needs are right here in the contracts and transactions page. It appears obvious (to me anyway) that Danny has already made the decision to keep Strus as he guaranteed him $415k just 3 days ago so he isn't going anywhere. Barring a trade it will have to be Green who is released and paid $100k on the way out the door.
I think this (keeping Strus over Green) is completely defensible for the reason you outline. It's not as though the Celtics will be counting on Green for minutes this year.In case it wasn't clear, I think this is right. Danny apparently believes Strus has the higher upside because of his shooting ability. He's on the team. The question I have is Wannamaker/Semi vs. Green.
Green probably isn't ever going to be more than a rotation player, so at the the end of the day this isn't a big deal on a deep Celtics team. But he could conceivably be that guy sometime this year. Wannamaker will not be a rotation player. Semi could be, but he looks the same as he always has. Seems like they're going to cut a guy who isn't the worst player on the roster.
He threw a layup in just for kicks.Edwards not only had 26 points in the quarter, he hit his 8 three-pointers in a 5 minute span. He had 24 points in the first 6 minutes of the 3rd (not sure when he got the other 2 points--but all his threes came in first 6 minutes).
At that distance, he is basically unguardable. I don't care if its a preseason game against the hapless Cavs or a Bucks playoff game. 30" is insane.He threw a layup in just for kicks.
Read that 'Arsen's 3Ps averaged something like 29' and four were 30+ feet. That's pretty amazing.
Agree with the bolded. Danny/Brad may have made Strus and his agent some promises when they initially signed Max to the 2-way. The cost difference between cutting Green and Strus is something like $300K? Heck, they'll do that in one telecast w/Tacko & Co lighting it up this season. CNBC Sports announced they will be televising 30 Red Claw games this season and Red Claw ownership transfer to the Celtics yesterday.It's not that clear. Strus' guarantee basically covers what he could have earned under the 2-way deal the C's promised him. ($385K if he spens max time with the big club).
I think this (keeping Strus over Green) is completely defensible for the reason you outline. It's not as though the Celtics will be counting on Green for minutes this year.
I think the top 9 will be Walker, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, Theis, Smart, Kanter, Edwards, Grant. The other guys will get occasional, situational minutes. Poirier will be the 3rd C. Langford and mayne Time Lord will spend a lot of time in Maine.
I've come around a bit to the case for keeping Wannamaker: he can bring the ball up, spot up for 3, and is big enough to not be hunted on D. I don't think there's really a case for Semi at this point though. Tatum and Brown are filling out to the point where they can likely do a similar job on Giannis, and Semi brings basically nothing else to the table. I'd rather take a flier on Strus or Green becoming rotation wings. The only reason I can really see to keep Semi is if there's a specific player they're targeting in post-Dec. 15th trades and his salary is necessary to just get them there.In case it wasn't clear, I think this is right. Danny apparently believes Strus has the higher upside because of his shooting ability. He's on the team. The question I have is Wannamaker/Semi vs. Green.
Green probably isn't ever going to be more than a rotation player, so at the the end of the day this isn't a big deal on a deep Celtics team. But he could conceivably be that guy sometime this year. Wannamaker will not be a rotation player. Semi could be, but he looks the same as he always has. Seems like they're going to cut a guy who isn't the worst player on the roster.
Green was very impressive on the offensive end but the Cs got him to play defense and I noticed I think three occasions when he either (1) went for the steal, was out of position and let his man have any easy shot or (2) because he was overplaying the man with the ball, he got beat on backdoor give and go cuts.In case it wasn't clear, I think this is right. Danny apparently believes Strus has the higher upside because of his shooting ability. He's on the team. The question I have is Wannamaker/Semi vs. Green.
Green probably isn't ever going to be more than a rotation player, so at the the end of the day this isn't a big deal on a deep Celtics team. But he could conceivably be that guy sometime this year. Wannamaker will not be a rotation player. Semi could be, but he looks the same as he always has. Seems like they're going to cut a guy who isn't the worst player on the roster.
Yeah these are all good points. I started looking for Green's defense in the last couple of games, because Ojeleye's offense is just so ridiculously bad. Yet, in SSS, Green's D seems to be at that level.Green was very impressive on the offensive end but the Cs got him to play defense and I noticed I think three occasions when he either (1) went for the steal, was out of position and let his man have any easy shot or (2) because he was overplaying the man with the ball, he got beat on backdoor give and go cuts.
If he's going to make it in the NBA, Green really needs to be playing somewhere, not sitting as the 13th to 15th man on the bench.
Plus Green is only 6'4" so even with his athleticism, he's small-ish to be a wing.
Will be interesting to see how DA handles this conundrum.
It almost makes sense to think of 2 rotations: the guys playing the 1, 2, 3, and 4 are one and the guys playing the 5 are the other.I like your top 9 rotational players and think Poirier will be needed as the 10th against the bigger/beefier Centers. TL and Langford need minutes and Maine isn't bad place for that but they'll need to dress TL for Celtic games, right?
If he's able to show that he can hit 3's against the varsity like he did in the final preseason game, he will get regular rotational minutes. I'm sure Brad will shelter him as much as possible so he doesn't get overly exposed defensively, but I've always felt a player like that can still be valuable despite defensive liabilities, especially off the bench playing against the opponent's second unit. Pair him with Smart or Hayward or Brown in the backcourt and he'd be fine. I'm not at all convinced it's a mirage, but I do acknowledge that the sample size is basically nil at this point.Preseason and all, I know. But Edwards has shown some real scoring ability. How many minutes a game do we think he'll get? Is this a mirage, or the start of a pretty helpful piece for the Celtics?
We also have a good sample from college, given that he took such a high volume of long 3s off the dribble. At this point I'd feel comfortable saying that the guy is very, very, very likely to be a plus shooter. Main questions, as you said, will be size and defense.If he's able to show that he can hit 3's against the varsity like he did in the final preseason game, he will get regular rotational minutes. I'm sure Brad will shelter him as much as possible so he doesn't get overly exposed defensively, but I've always felt a player like that can still be valuable despite defensive liabilities, especially off the bench playing against the opponent's second unit. Pair him with Smart or Hayward or Brown in the backcourt and he'd be fine. I'm not at all convinced it's a mirage, but I do acknowledge that the sample size is basically nil at this point.
Yeah. He’s going to be a plus to plus-plus shooter. The question isn’t whether he’s going to be a good shooter, it’s whether he’s going to be >40% from 3 on insanely high volume.We also have a good sample from college, given that he took such a high volume of long 3s off the dribble. At this point I'd feel comfortable saying that the guy is very, very, very likely to be a plus shooter. Main questions, as you said, will be size and defense.
IMO, he'll get regular minutes in the first half of games and then Brad will decide how many more he'll get based primarily on matchups and whether he's hot or not.Preseason and all, I know. But Edwards has shown some real scoring ability. How many minutes a game do we think he'll get? Is this a mirage, or the start of a pretty helpful piece for the Celtics?
This is why I think Semi/Wanamaker are in and Strus/Javonte fighting for the last spot.Yeah these are all good points. I started looking for Green's defense in the last couple of games, because Ojeleye's offense is just so ridiculously bad. Yet, in SSS, Green's D seems to be at that level.
Son and I argued about this last night at length (FWP). Ultimately where we ended up is that we know what Semi can and can't do, and what he definitely can do is something of value to this team in some matchups. And it's a given, albeit a limited one.
Green is explosive as fuck and maybe can score against regular season rotations, maybe, but it seems unlikely that he can defend. As a short wing, he's a longshot to ever be useful.
Semi is a longshot to ever get better, but he's a certainty to be of value in very limited situations.
It shouldn't matter.Does the possibility of Green going back to Europe instead of Maine factor into their attempts to keep as many people as possible?
Ah. That last part is the crucial piece I didn’t understand. Gracias.It shouldn't matter.
No matter who they cut, the Celtics lose their rights. Whoever the last cut is will be ineligible to play for Maine.
This is spot on.This is why I think Semi/Wanamaker are in and Strus/Javonte fighting for the last spot.
For the fringe rotation/lower upside guys, I'll always take guys that are better on the defensive end than on offense.
You shouldn't be expecting your 12th man types to give you a lift on offense, but just be able to help hold it together defensively while the players better than them get buckets.
If your end of the bench guys are forced to play, I don't want them taking many shots. Play D and give higher usage rate to the regulars sharing the floor with them.
IMHO, both have shown enough skills that either will find another NBA home very quickly.It shouldn't matter.
No matter who they cut, the Celtics lose their rights. Whoever the last cut is will be ineligible to play for Maine.
The problem is that the skill Strus might have (quick-release off-ball volume 3-point shooting) is probably the most valuable one that a 6-6 decently athletic complementary player can have.I think Green has shown a lot more than Strus. Green has off-the-charts athleticism. He's a highlight-reel guy. He gets overanxious on defense sometimes, but that can be coached. I doubt that Strus is much on the radar for other NBA GMs. If Strus isn't raining in threes, he looks pretty mediocre. I can't believe Danny would take Strus over Green; to me it's not even close.
I think the question revolves around intangible value. It is obviously great for the Maine Red Claws as a franchise to have Tacko Fall. Do the Celtics get any indirect value from that (beyond the value of having fall as a player?)This is the fascinating aspect of effectively developing Fall. The Celtics may well be losing a player who is likely to have a greater impact in the league than Fall. I trust Ainge etc enough that they are making the right choice but there is a scenario where one of these two is playing decent minutes for another team against the Celtics long after Tacko has moved elsewhere.
On the other hand, the odds favor an outcome where none of the three ever does much of note in the Association.
The main reason why this is unlikely to happen is that Green, for all his athleticism, is a wing. Strus, too. The Celtics roster is a little short on point guards and very long on wings. That gives Wanamaker a place. And there will be relatively few minutes behind Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Edwards, and maybe even Langford on the wing.Trading Wanamaker for a 2 that will never convey, or cutting him, is my first choice, assuming the Cs have Strus locked in. I love Waters. That guy is a true PG. He's probably going to get a lot of time in Maine, but he's shown me that he can be an effective NBA backup PG, at least.
I like Green a lot, and would like to see him get a chance as the 9th/10th man, and maybe blossom when getting that chance. He seems to be able to impact a game instantly, and I love his athleticism.
Green is 26 and more in his physical prime than Strus. And Strus' shooting may be the most valuable individual basketball skill posessed by either of the two. Which is to say that if you look at 2019-2020, Green is surely the more valuable player. But push the time horizon out 2-3 years and that may not be the case.I think Green has shown a lot more than Strus. Green has off-the-charts athleticism. He's a highlight-reel guy. He gets overanxious on defense sometimes, but that can be coached. I doubt that Strus is much on the radar for other NBA GMs. If Strus isn't raining in threes, he looks pretty mediocre. I can't believe Danny would take Strus over Green; to me it's not even close.
An interesting idea. As far as I can tell, Semi brings, potentially, 3 items of value, only one of which he has actually done in the NBA:I’d just keep both and cut/dump Semi. With Grant looking like a keeper, the Celtics now have 5 guys blocking Semi (Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Smart, Grant), so the “he’s reliable on defense” angle doesn’t matter to me as much as keeping the optionality on Green and Strus’ slightly higher upside.
That's like saying if Green can't jump, he's pretty mediocre.I doubt that Strus is much on the radar for other NBA GMs. If Strus isn't raining in threes, he looks pretty mediocre. I can't believe Danny would take Strus over Green; to me it's not even close.
That's 5 guys for 3 spots, we're an injury or two from Semi seeing minutes. I want his defense in case of emergency. I guess Green could play that role.The problem is that the skill Strus might have (quick-release off-ball volume 3-point shooting) is probably the most valuable one that a 6-6 decently athletic complementary player can have.
I’d just keep both and cut/dump Semi. With Grant looking like a keeper, the Celtics now have 5 guys blocking Semi (Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Smart, Grant), so the “he’s reliable on defense” angle doesn’t matter to me as much as keeping the optionality on Green and Strus’ slightly higher upside.
That's 5 guys for 3 spots, we're an injury or two from Semi seeing minutes. I want his defense in case of emergency. I guess Green could play that role.
If Danny was going to keep both Green/Strus, wouldn't he have kept Strus on the 2-way and promoted Waters?
Strus is clearly a project (as is Fall), would be blocked by our multitude of wings and Waters is more NBA ready (due to his defensive ball-hawking)
I don't want to get all 4D chess here, and I agree that's it's quite likely that the Celtics simply intend to cut Strus or Green.That's 5 guys for 3 spots, we're an injury or two from Semi seeing minutes. I want his defense in case of emergency. I guess Green could play that role.
If Danny was going to keep both Green/Strus, wouldn't he have kept Strus on the 2-way and promoted Waters?
Strus is clearly a project (as is Fall), would be blocked by our multitude of wings and Waters is more NBA ready (due to his defensive ball-hawking)
Do we need a poll?
1. Strus 2. Green 3. Strus/Green cut Semi 4. Strus /Green cut BW
Waters may have NBA-level skills but he is NOT (IMHO) NBA-ready. First of all, I can't see him lasting 20 games if he had to play regular minutes without getting a ton stronger.Waters is clearly more NBA ready than Green, Fall, or Strus.
Ideally all would be in Maine though. None are needed in Boston, and minutes in Maine are better than the bench.
The answer is that the boded guys are quite hard to find, especially the ones who are either elite D+OK shooting or elite shooting+OK D. They're also really valuable positionally since you can play them at the 2-4.I know the Tacko lovers won (I raise my hand). But just to speak to a point that @DeJesus Built My Hotrod spoke of above about how Keeping Tacko might now mean losing a "real (future)NBA contributor" (my words).
Isnt Strus and Green basically a dime a dozen? You can find 20+ 6'4 -6'6 wings who are super athletic or who (seem to be able to) shoot well.
While your probably not finding a 7+footer with upside.
Sure you lose Green or Strus types this year, but next year wont we be talking about how "Smith and Jones are the 3andD and super athletic guys that we need to keep for the end of the bench"? Would we find another 7+foot project as tantalizing as Tacko?
Strus can guard a couple of positions? That would make him valuable.That's like saying if Green can't jump, he's pretty mediocre.
Strus - SSS alert! - is shooting something like 45% from 3P after summer league and preseason and apparently has wowed the Cs brass with his shooting. And from his highlight clips, Strus's range is not just 23 feet but a few feet out from there.
Agree that if Strus can't shoot he's not a NBA player but at this point, is there really anything more valuable than someone who can guard a couple of positions and can sit around for a while, come in a game, and hit a couple of spot-up threes? I mean even Abdel Nader played almost 700 minutes last year for OKC.
Plus we presume that as he gets in NBA strength training programs, his range should increase as he gets stronger.
Love to watch Javonte play basketball but unless he's Tony Allen-ish on D, he's not all that valuable in today's NBA and I've not seen him play that level of defense.
From what I have watched, he has seemed at least passable playing the wing position in Brad's defense. He certainly hasn't been made to look silly by anyone.Strus can guard a couple of positions? That would make him valuable.
But the reason he was passed on by 30 other teams is that there are questions about whether he can stay in front of anyone at any position in the NBA.
This is where I am. Flip and coin and pick one. Green has good athleticism but he's already 26. How much upside does he really have? Strus was a career 35% 3 pt shooter in college. Solid but nothing that really gets me that excited either. I'm sure Danny and Brad see more in both but I doubt either of them ever crack the rotation. Tacko probably won't either but I'm perfectly content to continue chasing that unicorn.I don't care which one of Strus/Green gets cut. Neither of them are ever going to be impactful guys for the Celtics. Green seems more likely to be a useful short-term depth piece to me, but whatever.
Just keep Tacko to develop over both of them.
Raw 3pt% doesn’t tell you much. There are tons of guys with a higher % than Edwards (for example), but he’s a much better shooter than almost all of them—his attempts were tough and high-volume.This is where I am. Flip and coin and pick one. Green has good athleticism but he's already 26. How much upside does he really have? Strus was a career 35% 3 pt shooter in college. Solid but nothing that really gets me that excited either. I'm sure Danny and Brad see more in both but I doubt either of them ever crack the rotation. Tacko probably won't either but I'm perfectly content to continue chasing that unicorn.
I'm not dismissing him because of his raw 3pt %. I'm dismissing him because he's a borderline NBA talent with mediocre, at best, athleticism. He may be a plus shooter - we'll see. All of these guys are borderline talents so I'm continuing to stick with the 7'5 one.Raw 3pt% doesn’t tell you much. There are tons of guys with a higher % than Edwards (for example), but he’s a much better shooter than almost all of them—his attempts were tough and high-volume.
The ability to even attempt a lot of 3s is itself indicative of a faster release etc.
Strus shot a really high volume of 3s (about 9.0/36) and shot 84% from the line. I’m not all on team Strus or anything, but dismissing him because of raw 3pt% is...suboptimal.
I don't particularly care since I think it's a tiny chance either ever plays meaningful NBA minutes.This is spot on.
Who do you like Green or Strus? I'm fine with either, but leaning towards Green. The guy is extremely quick and has electric hops.
I'm not familiar with Dave Dufour, but Javonte Green isn't eligible to sign a two-way contract this year.IMHO, both have shown enough skills that either will find another NBA home very quickly.
View: https://twitter.com/DaveDuFourNBA/status/1184198541562040321?s=20
This is the fascinating aspect of effectively developing Fall. The Celtics may well be losing a player who is likely to have a greater impact in the league than Fall. I trust Ainge etc enough that they are making the right choice but there is a scenario where one of these two is playing decent minutes for another team against the Celtics long after Tacko has moved elsewhere.
On the other hand, the odds favor an outcome where none of the three ever does much of note in the Association.
I think the barriers to a deal between Pritchard and Ainge are pretty significant, even for end of the roster types. You never know of course but I think there is some bad blood or, at least a less than collegial relationship, between the two organizations (based on the Cs rumored offer for George and a other noise).. The Pacers are one of the teams that needs wings and I could see Struss or Green going there
A 2-1 trade to clear a roster spot is another way out of the dilemma. But I don't know which teams have the roster space to take on two players in exchange for one.