What percentage of the minor league draftees receive 6-figure plus bonuses? They may be paying for things out of their own pockets but some can afford to.
Pick value for each player in the first 10 rounds was set at over $100,000 for 2014. Now, not everyone received that much and some received more, but after taxes and paying an agent, there might not be much left.charlieoscar said:
Bonus information here: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/79082538/2014-draft-signingbonus-tracker
They have pretty enormous incentives, personal and financial, to spend it the right way. Are there lots of minor leaguers who don't have the overall goal of reaching the majors?OfTheCarmen said:
Combine increased pay with education and access to nutritionists, personal trainers, etc., and the vast majority are going to take advantage.
Yeah, and while it's not a whole lot for a young guy with a family, my guess is that in the offseason a lot of the 19, 20, 21 year old American draftees go back and live with their parents in the offseason, where it would stretch a lot further than if you're maintaining an apartment.Toe Nash said:
And, while probably 1/3 of the draftees got $100k or higher bonuses, most of the kids from Latin America got a plane ticket and uniforms by comparison. So, the increase in salary would be far more consequential to those kids than to the Bryce Harpers of the world.
This same issue arose in Canadian Junior hockey this past fall: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/10/20/class_action_lawsuit_filed_against_canadian_hockey_league_over_wages.html
The situation is different for juniors, who are billited and are students, but the basic principle that they are paid (well) under minimum wage is the same...
The situation is different for juniors, who are billited and are students, but the basic principle that they are paid (well) under minimum wage is the same...
If we assume that increased pay, better nutrition, and better training programs would run a team 5-10 million dollars a year (is that super high? Low?) then the question is whether this expenditure would be likely to create (on average) 1 additional win per year for the ML team.
Hell, if you thought there was at least a 50% chance of getting a Daniel Nava level player you wouldn't have gotten otherwise that alone should make it worth a 10 year test run of putting more money into the minor leagues.
Am I missing something here? It seems like a no-brainer to toss a few extra million toward better player care in the minors.
Hell, if you thought there was at least a 50% chance of getting a Daniel Nava level player you wouldn't have gotten otherwise that alone should make it worth a 10 year test run of putting more money into the minor leagues.
Am I missing something here? It seems like a no-brainer to toss a few extra million toward better player care in the minors.
How many of these kids play baseball because that is what they want to do even when they know that they will never make the majors? The money isn't the thing to some of them. Look at the independent leagues.
It seems to me like the 10 million number is extremely high, and the $5 million number is too high as well. Giving a $10,000 a year raise to approximately 175 minor league players (7 affiliates X 25 players per affiliate) is just $1.75 million. Providing better nutrition for lunch and dinner in the clubhouse probably can't run more than an extra $2,000 per person, so $350k, and hiring 2 strength and conditioning coaches per affiliate is maybe another $150,000 in pay and benefits tops. So, it seems like it would run the whole organization an extra $2.25 million, which pretty much means you get your money back if it helps a Tommy Layne beat out a Craig Breslow, or a Daniel Nava beat out a Grady Sizemore reclamation project, or a Brock Holt beat out a Nick Punto.Boggs26 said:
It's better for baseball too; suppose a decent prospect throws in the towel because he can't support his young family. If it wasn't a dramatization, the story of "The Rookie" about the 36-year-old Rays reliever who discovers he can throw mid-90s has several scenes where he almost has to give up because his house is about to be foreclosed (Watching that movie was the first time I said to myself, "Does minor league baseball really pay that much less than what a gym teacher makes?"). If you can make a living as a AA player (I think you can if you get to where you are a AAA lifer), it will make baseball more popular among elite amateur athletes, and that can only be good for the game.
If I were king for a day, I'd like to see minimums of $14,500 for rookie leagues (that's minimum wage for 2000 hours; they're basically HS/College kids anyway), $20k for low-A, $26k for high-A, $52k for AA, and $78k for AAA.
I was figuring on a $15 a day boost to what they were already spending, not total per diem, and two additional strength coaches for the entire system, not per team. And I'm still assumed we're talking about getting post-game spreads catered, not installing kitchens.
A talented ballplayer said "Fuck it!"
He went to go man-whore in Phuket.
He said after spitting,
while gingerly sitting:
"At least I'm not stuck in Pawtucket."
He went to go man-whore in Phuket.
He said after spitting,
while gingerly sitting:
"At least I'm not stuck in Pawtucket."
Matt Spring was on the radio talking about the difference between the Rays and Redsox systems.
He said they were vastly different and that the Sox were extremely thorough and took care of everything imaginable so players can just focus on baseball.
That may not mean more money in the pocket but way more perks. I wouldn't be shocked if some teams had higher minimum salaries though.
He said they were vastly different and that the Sox were extremely thorough and took care of everything imaginable so players can just focus on baseball.
That may not mean more money in the pocket but way more perks. I wouldn't be shocked if some teams had higher minimum salaries though.
Plympton91 said:
Only about 15% of draftees got a 100K or more bonus in 2014. There are 50 rounds. After the first 10 rounds 100K bonuses are pretty rare. I also have to question the idea that Latin American kids dont get bonuses, they do (avg in 2011 was 133K although agents take about 1/3 and some may take more) and the money goes a lot farther in their home countries.
http://americasquarterly.org/node/2745
Also, compared to living standards at home I dont expect they have as much of a downgrade here compared to american born players. Thousands cross the borders illegally to upgrade their living standards, they get to do so legally
Someone pointed upthread that minor league pay is only 1/2 what it was in the 70's, despite unprecedented growth in MLB revenues and a declining share of revenues to MLB players over the last decade . Thats just wrong.
Just as important as what is right and what is not, is what is the effect on these working conditions/low pay have on the talent pool. How much of the shift to other sports by African Americans is due to a reluctance to work for less than a McDonalds worker makes for years before getting on the 40 man roster. How many white players who otherwise might be drafted after round 10 and willing to play minor league ball chose instead to work so as to pay off their student loans raher than work at poverty wages in the minors. MLB unlike other sports gets a significant amount of talent from the later rounds. These guys probably never get drafted after letting scouts know they would not sign if drafted late. and lesser talent gets drafted instead.
While most minor leaguers never make it to MLB, they are essential to the development of those who do. Lesser talent in the minor league system may retard their development.
Lawsuit seeks better pay for minor-league baseball players--A class-action suit argues that minor-league players often make less than minimum wage. From Portland Press Herald:
http://www.pressherald.com/2015/02/13/lawsuit-seeks-better-pay-for-minor-league-baseball-players/
http://www.pressherald.com/2015/02/13/lawsuit-seeks-better-pay-for-minor-league-baseball-players/
This is still the same lawsuit filed last year. MLB is hoping to move the case from California to Florida.charlieoscar said:
While I do agree that minor leaguers are making very little, the quote attributed to the lawyer spearheading this (who was a former minor league player and reached AAA) was kind of dumb.
Don't people go into debt often, to follows their dreams?
Anyway, I think eventually we will see an MiLB players union. Just not sure how soon.
I don't see why a smart, well financed organization like the Red Sox doesn't pay their minor leaguers much better. It would cost them next to nothing and they would likely get at least a bit of organizational loyalty from players. Imagine the Red Sox being known as the team that doesn't shit on its minor leaguers like the other 29 teams. Yes, most of those minor leaguers would never have valuable services to bargain into a free marketplace. But some would. On top of which all that is legal is not right. It's not right to take advantage of minor leaguers to pay them as little as possible even if you can't get arrested for doing so.
Yup, 6 minor league teams at 25 players per team = 150 playersRough Carrigan said:
Given them each a $10,000 raise = $1.5 million
Or about the difference between Craig Breslow or Tommy Layne as your 11th man in the bullpen. No impact to the bottom line of the organization at all.
I'm sure it varies a little but the fact that I've never seen an article about this issue remark that Team X or Team Y is known for being much better about paying its minor leaguers leads one to the conclusion that any variation in pay is a difference of degree but not of kind.bosox79 said:
I heard an interview with Matt Spring on the Big Jab suggesting what the Sox take care of and what the Rays take care of was pretty huge.
Where players have the ability to negotiate better deals, some teams give them to them. For instance http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-yankees-found-another-way-to-outspend-every-other-team/. 99% of minor leaguers never get that chance to successfully get through their indentured servitude to the team that drafted them or offered them a contract at 16 with enough value left for teams to consider bidding up their contract at that point. It's pretty clear from links earlier in this thread that the Sox and Yankees, and probably we can guess now the Cubs and Dodgers as well offer considerably more perks that translate to more financial as well as nutritional and training support. Wages don't vary from team to team because they are essentially in the CBA- the minimums are there and that's enough of a guideline to keep everyone in line to hold labor costs down for all of the teams. There aren't any other costs that Selig doesn't want all of the teams working to hold down, so it's not exactly a surprise that a group without any actor really working on their behalf gets squeezed.Rough Carrigan said:
In 2012, MLB set caps on how much various teams are allowed to spend in draft bonuses without invoking penalties (fines or loss of picks). MLB also assigns pick values for each of the picks in the first ten rounds. I believe that if a team can convince a player to sign for under his slot value, they can use the money difference on another slot.
Baseball America did a series of pieces discussing some of these things back in April 2014: http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/2014-draft-assigned-pick-values-for-top-10-rounds/ . The link I posted includes a table showing the slot values for each of the picks in the first ten rounds, as well as having links to other discussions on the matter. Someone with the time and drive could do a fairly complete study of what draftees signed for in past years.
In the BBA article the last pick in the 10th round (315th pick) was assigned a slot value of $137,600. Assuming that after taxes, agent fees, etc, he has 60% of that money, it works out to just under $1,600 per week for a year in extra money on which to live. If he lasts four years in the minors that drops to just under $400 per week. By this time he is either on the cusp of making it to the bigs or realizing that he needs to find another line of work.
As a ballpark estimate, let us say that there are 30 teams with five minor league teams that have 25 player each, or roughly 3750 minor leaguers, so approximately one out of 12 gets a reasonable to great signing bonus. The rule-of-thumb that I have heard is that one in 10 draftees can expect to make the majors, so we're in the ballpark. The 90% are basically place-holders who provide the framework for the "talent" to mature.
But the draft happens yearly, so some of the 90% are pushed out and there are more players with bonuses on which to fall back. In other words, I'm not convinced that the plight of the minor leaguers is as dire as some of the respondents would have us believe.
Baseball America did a series of pieces discussing some of these things back in April 2014: http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/2014-draft-assigned-pick-values-for-top-10-rounds/ . The link I posted includes a table showing the slot values for each of the picks in the first ten rounds, as well as having links to other discussions on the matter. Someone with the time and drive could do a fairly complete study of what draftees signed for in past years.
In the BBA article the last pick in the 10th round (315th pick) was assigned a slot value of $137,600. Assuming that after taxes, agent fees, etc, he has 60% of that money, it works out to just under $1,600 per week for a year in extra money on which to live. If he lasts four years in the minors that drops to just under $400 per week. By this time he is either on the cusp of making it to the bigs or realizing that he needs to find another line of work.
As a ballpark estimate, let us say that there are 30 teams with five minor league teams that have 25 player each, or roughly 3750 minor leaguers, so approximately one out of 12 gets a reasonable to great signing bonus. The rule-of-thumb that I have heard is that one in 10 draftees can expect to make the majors, so we're in the ballpark. The 90% are basically place-holders who provide the framework for the "talent" to mature.
But the draft happens yearly, so some of the 90% are pushed out and there are more players with bonuses on which to fall back. In other words, I'm not convinced that the plight of the minor leaguers is as dire as some of the respondents would have us believe.
Frank said:
And none of the draftees have gone to college? None of them have families or agents who help them look after their money?
Nathaniel Grow @NathanielGrow · 27m 27 minutes ago
Judge in minor league wage lawsuit says he's unlikely to transfer case to Florida: http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/02/17/judge-seeks-more-plaintiffs-in-baseball-fight.htm …
Nathaniel Grow @NathanielGrow · 25m 25 minutes ago
Significant win for plaintiffs, as Florida courts hold minor league baseball not subject to minimum wage or overtime requirements.
Wendy Thurm @hangingsliders · 11m 11 minutes ago
On that last 2 RT's -- that's very good news for current/former minor league ballplayers suing MLB for wage & hour violations.
Judge in minor league wage lawsuit says he's unlikely to transfer case to Florida: http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/02/17/judge-seeks-more-plaintiffs-in-baseball-fight.htm …
Nathaniel Grow @NathanielGrow · 25m 25 minutes ago
Significant win for plaintiffs, as Florida courts hold minor league baseball not subject to minimum wage or overtime requirements.
Wendy Thurm @hangingsliders · 11m 11 minutes ago
On that last 2 RT's -- that's very good news for current/former minor league ballplayers suing MLB for wage & hour violations.
A related subject that gets little attention is salaries for minor league coaches. I wrote about it this past Sunday (apologies for plugging my work) and what I learned researching the article is interesting.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-coaching-salaries-on-the-farm-bullpen-scatalogy-cards-step-more/
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-coaching-salaries-on-the-farm-bullpen-scatalogy-cards-step-more/
David, nice article on the minor league coaches. The part I liked the best was about the top tier college coaches.
Getting off topic here a bit, but are those college coaches pretty much never pulled into the MLB organizations? I'm not sure if I recall anyone speaking about a coach that had made the jump and has success.
Getting off topic here a bit, but are those college coaches pretty much never pulled into the MLB organizations? I'm not sure if I recall anyone speaking about a coach that had made the jump and has success.
I think that last point is the point. All you need to do is find a 25th guy from your crop of better-conditioned, more-focused minor leaguers rather than having to sign a major league free agent for that role, and you've made back the whole investment. Finding a Daniel Nava or a Brandon Donnelly is incredibly valuable; if paying the poverty rate rather than slave wages means that one guy like Nava keeps chasing the dream for an extra season rather than needing to succumb to real life, it's a good thing for baseball's business.
And, even if it doesn't, as long as baseball has a ridiculously undeserved anti-trust exemption, I have no problem imposing minimum-wage mandates on the owners that I would never support for an industry that wasn't benefiting from such a ridiculously protectionist and outdated policy. If the owners want to pay minor leaguers what they would in a competitive market, then they need to subject themselves to a competitive market as well.
And, even if it doesn't, as long as baseball has a ridiculously undeserved anti-trust exemption, I have no problem imposing minimum-wage mandates on the owners that I would never support for an industry that wasn't benefiting from such a ridiculously protectionist and outdated policy. If the owners want to pay minor leaguers what they would in a competitive market, then they need to subject themselves to a competitive market as well.
I was picking those numbers out of a hat, but even $5,000 more per player in the minors would likely at least get them off of food stamps and only cost an organization at most $750,000 a year (150 players X 6 affiliates--but many of those 150 players would be on minor league free agent contracts that already reflect a bump up from the slave wages of the first 6 years, so it would be less than that).Papelbon's Poutine said:
I would not target catcher for savings this season; the alternatives to Hannigan being a guy who we don't know if he can hit and a prospect with limited AAA experience and no major league at bats. Hannigan is exactly the type of player they should have had backing up Bradley Jr. last season.
But I would have been perfectly if they'd developed a Brock Holt that could have made the 2 year deal to Nick Punto unnecessary. I'm really glad they paid Daniel Nava a combined $2 million over the past 4 seasons instead of paying however many million the Yankees paid Ichiro over the same period.
My guess is that what keeps a team from breaking ranks on minor league salaries is the same thing that keeps teams from putting in claims on optional assignment waivers or claims on players who are waived so they can sign with a Japanese team. The "Gentleman's agreement," which is less polite company is called "collusion."Papelbon's Poutine said:
Regarding all this discussion about teams breaking rank on minor league salaries, isn't the salary structure spelled out in the MLB-milb agreement?
A poster above said the minimums are set forth.charlieoscar said:
And christ, I said "a bit of organizational loyalty". You might get something, now and then, from a player for not having shit on him and all his teammates when you could have. It's also nuts for minor league managers who've managed for a decade in the minors to get paid $42,000 per year as cited in Dave Laurila's excellent piece above. When you shit on people just because you can legally get away with it, that says a lot about you.
I know this post is from a number of months ago, but:
Cabin Mirror paid off pretty well.Plympton91 said: