2023-24 Celtics

jmcc5400

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So let's talk Guards on this roster. In the offseason we upgraded (I think we can all agree) Smart to Holiday. We got older by 4 years at that position, and a lot more mileage (Smart career 586 GP, Holiday 910), but the early returns are very promising on his decision-making, reduced bone-headedness, while preserving very alert and high-energy D and perhaps the best hands of any defender in the league. Holiday doesn't throw his body around and dive for stuff as much as Smart, but arguably that will help him sustain his level of play the next few years.

In doing so, however, we sent out reigning 6MOY Brogdon, leaving 3rd-guard duties to Payton Pritchard. Now, yes, we do have some big-lineup versions where one of White or Holiday is sitting, Brown is essentially the second guard, and by using Hauser and/or Horford we can minimize PP's minutes if we want to.

But more broadly, how much is the difference between PP and MB? We clearly downgraded in some measurables: Brogdon is 6'5' 230, Pritchard 6'1 195. PP can stay in front of guys but can get easily pushed around. Pritchard is a career 40% 3Pt shooter, but mostly against reserves / bench; Brogdon was a career 39% 3Pt shooter who shot the lights out for us (44.4%) in his one year here. Brogdon had injury issues but I think that was of the "bad luck" variety rather than the "signs of aging" (he's 30) or "injury-prone" categories.

Biggest difference is probably usage. On the floor for us, Brogdon had a USG% of 22.8% to Pritchard's career 18%, and that's with PP playing mostly with the deep bench and often being the top scoring threat on the floor. Brogdon was capable of creating his own shot against NBA starters, which is why his USG is up to 29.2% in the early going with Portland.

How big do we think our downgrade has been? Would "3rd Guard" be the team's top priority if we were to make an addition, or would it be to upgrade Hauser as 3rd wing or Kornet / Brissett as 3rd big?
The other, semi-quiet upgrade is giving White more responsibility and crunchtime minutes, removing any ambiguity about closing lineups (at least at G). Last year, all too frequently we'd see those minutes given to Smart or Brogdon who just aren't as good as White but had a greater "pedigree."
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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It's certainly fun on TV. This team passed its first, let's call them quizzes, @NYK and vs MIA, requiring a comeback streak vs the Knicks, and a sustained 4-quarter effort vs the Heat. In the latter, we took the lead for good with 11 minutes remaining, but it was a 1 or 2 possession game until 4 minutes left, and with 1 minute left a Kevin Love 3 got it to within 3 points before we finished it off. So we passed the quizzes, but not with top marks -we looked more mortal against two tough well-coached teams. Obviously the last two games have been men-against-boys chuckle-fests. And I hope those continue, but they're not telling us much we don't already know.

We have another "quiz" coming up next Wednesday @ Philadelphia. Harden or no Harden, that team will play us tough. Orlando might be a problem at various points this year.

But here are the 16 "Test" games for the season, against the other 6 teams who are currently +1600 or better to win the championship, plus the Heat.

(BOS +400, MIL +450, DEN +500, PHX +700, LAC +1400, GSW +1500, LAL +1600... MIA +3600 lol)

Game 15, Nov 22: vs MIL
Game 24, Dec 19: @ GSW*
Game 26, Dec 23: @ LAC
Game 27, Dec 25: @ LAL
Game 36, Jan 11: @ MIL**
Game 40, Jan 19: vs DEN
Game 43, Jan 25: @ MIA
Game 44, Jan 27: vs LAC
Game 47, Feb 1: vs LAL
Game 51, Feb 11: @ MIA
Game 58, Mar 3: vs GSW
Game 60, Mar 7: @ DEN
Game 61, Mar 9: @ PHX
Game 64, Mar 14: vs PHX
Game 67, Mar 20: vs MIL
Game 77, Apr 9: @ MIL

* game is the front half of a back-to-back
** game is the back half of a back-to-back
(N.B. game numbers are out of 80, and do not include the 2 yet-to-be-scheduled games during the tournament break in early December. Likeliest opponents to be added for those, though, are the eastern-conference out-of-division teams who we only have 3 games against as of now: Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago / Miami, Charlotte, Orlando. We should expect 1 additional game against each division.)
Absolutely. There will definitely be a lot more difficult matchups than what we're seeing right now, but the C's lost last year to the Bulls a couple times, the Magic a few times, they lost to this Indiana team, they lost to the Wizards, etc.

They aren't just beating these teams, they are absolutely fucking steamrolling them, and I honestly don't even think they've put it together yet. They're just dominating by talent, as opposed to scheme/sets/game planning. Barring injury, this team really has a chance to be something truly special, maybe even historic, IMO. I know its early, and I'm getting ahead of myself, but what I saw in person last night, I haven't seen since the '08 team (and I think this team is better as currently constituted) and the 80's. It was everything too, the way guys were feeling it on the bench, the lack of reaction to bad calls (and there were a bunch last night, KP specifically seems to be getting a Daniel Theis whistle right now), the movement, the playing off each other, it was just all good. I wouldn't even say the crowd had a real chance to get into it either. The game was over before a lot of folks had a chance to get to their seats.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Wow I need to read these. Yeah I just never knew this story.
His son apparently wrote a book on him that should at least be entertaining.

Those UNLV teams from the late 1980s were my favorite teams to watch. I particularly liked the 1986-87 UNLV team even though it didn't win the title. A friend of mine and I were big fans of Gerald Paddio, because of the way he looked when he shot the ball.

That tournament (86-87) was also famous for Bobby Knight's famous quote: "I was a bit concerned at one point (against LSU) but I looked at the other bench and saw Dale Brown there and didn't worry again."
 

NomarsFool

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Of course, way too SSS, but the big surprise to me so far has been DW. He was killing it last night. I mean, I thought last year that DW was good and should have been playing more than MS, but again - SSS - maybe he's taking a leap.
 

luckiestman

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Jul 15, 2005
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I looked at the 1974 draft in which Wedman was taken 6th overall (Walton was #1). Here's the crazy thing. There were THREE guys taken in the first 26 picks from.....

Cal State Long Beach

Yep.

#16 - Cliff Pondexter
#17 - Glenn McDonald (picked by Boston)
#26 - Leonard Gray

And then at #53, Roscoe Pondexter. So four picks in that draft.

So naturally that led me to wondering....just how good that Cal State Long Beach team was.

Turns out...pretty good. 24-2, 12-0 in conference, finished #10 in the final AP Poll. Head coach? Lute Olson.

Their only two losses were:

73-71 to Colorado
54-52 to #6 Marquette

So they were 6 points away from an undefeated season. Yet somehow, they weren't even in the NCAA Tournament. Crazy.
Great info. Stories like this get lost to history
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
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I've been saying since last year that I don't believe we've seen the last of Kelly Olynyk in green. It just makes too much sense for both parties possibly as soon as the deadline.
That would be a helluva finishing piece. Just takes a little Brad + Danny + Kelly's Agent backroom tinkering.
Nice look from Jay King at how the C's utilized the post up last night. Just another curveball from Mazz.

It’s a new trick for the Celtics. Mazzulla believes it should help them attack switches.
“It just gives us different ways to win basketball games,” Mazzulla said. “When you’re able to get those easy baskets, I think one, it settles our guys down to where they can get an easier shot at the rim or where they can calm the run down. I think that’s another way to stop a run is getting into those situations. But we really fight to keep our spacing well, and if our spacing stays well and our guys have the space and poise to play down there, I think it’s something you do.”


https://theathletic.com/5023152/2023/11/02/celtics-win-pacers-post-play-jrue-holiday/
Always felt Marcus dragging opposing PGs down to the block and working from there was a good option for Smart. Wish we would have seen more of that.
 

lovegtm

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Apr 30, 2013
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So let's talk Guards on this roster. In the offseason we upgraded (I think we can all agree) Smart to Holiday. We got older by 4 years at that position, and a lot more mileage (Smart career 586 GP, Holiday 910), but the early returns are very promising on his decision-making, reduced bone-headedness, while preserving very alert and high-energy D and perhaps the best hands of any defender in the league. Holiday doesn't throw his body around and dive for stuff as much as Smart, but arguably that will help him sustain his level of play the next few years.

In doing so, however, we sent out reigning 6MOY Brogdon, leaving 3rd-guard duties to Payton Pritchard. Now, yes, we do have some big-lineup versions where one of White or Holiday is sitting, Brown is essentially the second guard, and by using Hauser and/or Horford we can minimize PP's minutes if we want to.

But more broadly, how much is the difference between PP and MB? We clearly downgraded in some measurables: Brogdon is 6'5' 230, Pritchard 6'1 195. PP can stay in front of guys but can get easily pushed around. Pritchard is a career 40% 3Pt shooter, but mostly against reserves / bench; Brogdon was a career 39% 3Pt shooter who shot the lights out for us (44.4%) in his one year here. Brogdon had injury issues but I think that was of the "bad luck" variety rather than the "signs of aging" (he's 30) or "injury-prone" categories.

Biggest difference is probably usage. On the floor for us, Brogdon had a USG% of 22.8% to Pritchard's career 18%, and that's with PP playing mostly with the deep bench and often being the top scoring threat on the floor. Brogdon was capable of creating his own shot against NBA starters, which is why his USG is up to 29.2% in the early going with Portland.

How big do we think our downgrade has been? Would "3rd Guard" be the team's top priority if we were to make an addition, or would it be to upgrade Hauser as 3rd wing or Kornet / Brissett as 3rd big?
Brogdon is better in a vacuum, but in the non-vacuum, he costs $22M to PP's $4M this year and $7M thereafter.

Brogdon is a (much) better shot creator, but once they added KP and Jrue, the returns to that creation plummeted. You'd be paying Brogdon an extra $15-18MM for being a bit harder to post up, which is not a great use of resources.

For that reason, I think 3rd big is probably top of the shopping list. I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to upgrade Hauser: he's pretty good, and fits well in the team concept. He'd be hard to upgrade meaningfully at any reasonable price....who are you getting on the wing who fits into the Grant TPE and is better than Hauser?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This picture right here encapsulates why I was so insistent that the move that had to be made was Marcus Smart leaving this team. You'd never see this kind of spacing because teams didn't respect Smart outside. Throw TL into the mix and it would get even more clogged. There isn't a guy on that floor that you can leave alone.
Agree. I didn't have time to do this yesterday but compare that picture to this picture from G6 against MIA. It's amazing how much space teams were willing to give Marcus and Al.

I mean I know everyone here knows this but when people talk about 3P shooting percentages, that's only a small part of the story. No team is giving KP that kind of room - if they did, he'd shoot something like 60% on 3Ps (it's kind of like FTs for us normal basketball players). And that extra step or two is the difference between JT/JB/JH finishing at the rim and JT/JB/JH getting swarmed by defenders.

73306
 

HomeRunBaker

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That would be a helluva finishing piece. Just takes a little Brad + Danny + Kelly's Agent backroom tinkering.
Assuming Utah is a seller at the deadline I wouldn't imagine Olynyk remains. The match here makes too much sense and we have the salary fodder of those on our deep bench who haven't grasped a role on the team.
 

slamminsammya

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Agree. I didn't have time to do this yesterday but compare that picture to this picture from G6 against MIA. It's amazing how much space teams were willing to give Marcus and Al.

I mean I know everyone here knows this but when people talk about 3P shooting percentages, that's only a small part of the story. No team is giving KP that kind of room - if they did, he'd shoot something like 60% on 3Ps (it's kind of like FTs for us normal basketball players). And that extra step or two is the difference between JT/JB/JH finishing at the rim and JT/JB/JH getting swarmed by defenders.

View attachment 73306
This is just how Miami plays their zone defense, its pretty unique and they generally have very high wings and as a result give up a ton of 3s but also generate a lot of turnovers.
 

teddykgb

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Agree. I didn't have time to do this yesterday but compare that picture to this picture from G6 against MIA. It's amazing how much space teams were willing to give Marcus and Al.

I mean I know everyone here knows this but when people talk about 3P shooting percentages, that's only a small part of the story. No team is giving KP that kind of room - if they did, he'd shoot something like 60% on 3Ps (it's kind of like FTs for us normal basketball players). And that extra step or two is the difference between JT/JB/JH finishing at the rim and JT/JB/JH getting swarmed by defenders.

View attachment 73306
Miami often deployed a kind of matchup zone and might still defend us similarly in a playoff scenario. We struggle a lot with their length and really struggled to break their zone concepts so while it is nice to have better shooters we are probably still vulnerable to going cold against the way they play us. Better to have better shooters taking those shots of course but I think the talk about post ups (although hard to post a zone) and having more ways to attack the way they defend would be more important in a 7 game series. We aren’t likely to simply out talent teams late in the playoffs and need to use the regular season to prepare better for the scenarios the team will face
 

Auger34

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Always felt Marcus dragging opposing PGs down to the block and working from there was a good option for Smart. Wish we would have seen more of that.
100%. Marcus was fantastic on the block. Seeemed like every time he'd score or find an open shooter.
 

Euclis20

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Of course, way too SSS, but the big surprise to me so far has been DW. He was killing it last night. I mean, I thought last year that DW was good and should have been playing more than MS, but again - SSS - maybe he's taking a leap.
He really does look great and a career year shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but he's the biggest candidate (by far) for regression after the first few games. Shooting .579 from 3 and .733 from 2, those would be insane for anyone and both marks are nearly 200 points higher than they were last year (and last year was the best shooting season of his career). All five starters have played like all-stars thus far, if they keep this up (or something close to it) I'm curious to see how many of them make it.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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The spacing is great but lets not act like its totally novel for this team. They use 5 out for years. a quick youtube search and I find the same spacing in like 20 seconds: View: https://youtu.be/Be00j_TqYcw?si=z1RlAc8kN8wQ9na4&t=73
That's a different conversation.

The C's spacing hasn't changed much.

It's the defense's spacing that has.

If you look at the first screen shot from last night, you'll see 5 defenders nowhere near the paint, because they can't leave anybody alone. All 5 guys can catch and shoot, or catch and go right around a close out to the rim. Even KP has that in his bag if he's got a big out there with him at the 3 point line. When the C's played anyone last year with Marcus (or Marcus and TL on the floor), they would still find a way to have 2, sometimes 3 guys with a foot in the paint clogging the lane, because letting one of them shoot from deep was a win for the defense. The result was the lanes wouldn't be there for Tatum/Brown/White, etc. to use a fake and go to the rim (or if they did, they were just kicking it back out to a worse shooter anyway).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is just how Miami plays their zone defense, its pretty unique and they generally have very high wings and as a result give up a ton of 3s but also generate a lot of turnovers.
The basic positions are MIA's zone but the distance away from the shooters is set by the particular matchup. For example, see this from the game last week. Both Love and Lowry are at least one step, maybe two steps closer to KP and Jrue than the defenders were to Smart and Horford in G6. Note that this possession ended in a Jrue 3P when Tatum threw him the ball at shoulder height and Jrue never brought the ball down and just shot over Lowry (as opposed to Smart, who has a big dip in his jump shot as we analysed many moons ago).

Also, one of the next possessions, the Cs had KP set the pick and he slipped the screen, meaning this very skilled 7'3" guy was rolling to the basket against Kyle Lowry and Duncan Robinson. If you recall, while KP missed the finger roll (which probably should have been a dunk), he got the OReb, realized he was 10+ inches taller than the other guys, and laid the ball into the basket.

73308
 

slamminsammya

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That's a different conversation.

The C's spacing hasn't changed much.

It's the defense's spacing that has.

If you look at the first screen shot from last night, you'll see 5 defenders nowhere near the paint, because they can't leave anybody alone. All 5 guys can catch and shoot, or catch and go right around a close out to the rim. Even KP has that in his bag if he's got a big out there with him at the 3 point line. When the C's played anyone last year with Marcus (or Marcus and TL on the floor), they would still find a way to have 2, sometimes 3 guys with a foot in the paint clogging the lane, because letting one of them shoot from deep was a win for the defense. The result was the lanes wouldn't be there for Tatum/Brown/White, etc. to use a fake and go to the rim (or if they did, they were just kicking it back out to a worse shooter anyway).
Yea, I am just saying you see the same defensive spacing in that video clip. We are definitely more threatening this year.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The spacing is great but lets not act like its totally novel for this team. They use 5 out for years. a quick youtube search and I find the same spacing in like 20 seconds: View: https://youtu.be/Be00j_TqYcw?si=z1RlAc8kN8wQ9na4&t=73
Sorry missed your first response. Let's take the play that you posted. I think that's Jarrett Allen guarding Horford. His foot is basically on the lane line - which is what 3 feet closer to the lane than what was occurring last night against IND. Plus, if you let the play continue, when JT drives the ball, Allen's first step is towards the lane. JT gets rid of the ball at a good time, which leaves us with the picture below.

No team in their right mind is giving KP that kind of room by design. And the corollary to this is that if Allen isn't that close to the lane, JT is playing 1 on 1 against the defender, and JT is going to score pretty darn efficiently if he's 1 on 1 against someone in the lane.

The spacing is completely different because KP and Jrue (to a lesser degree) have so much gravity.

73310
 

benhogan

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Brogdon is better in a vacuum, but in the non-vacuum, he costs $22M to PP's $4M this year and $7M thereafter.

Brogdon is a (much) better shot creator, but once they added KP and Jrue, the returns to that creation plummeted. You'd be paying Brogdon an extra $15-18MM for being a bit harder to post up, which is not a great use of resources.

For that reason, I think 3rd big is probably top of the shopping list. I'm not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to upgrade Hauser: he's pretty good, and fits well in the team concept. He'd be hard to upgrade meaningfully at any reasonable price....who are you getting on the wing who fits into the Grant TPE and is better than Hauser?
CJM using PP as a high-energy player to pressure the ball in the backcourt also slightly narrows the PP/MB role divide.

The biggest uptick (besides adding Jrue) in moving Brogdon (and Smart) is giving ALL the high-leverage minutes to White

Assuming Utah is a seller at the deadline I wouldn't imagine Olynyk remains. The match here makes too much sense and we have the salary fodder of those on our deep bench who haven't grasped a role on the team.
Do we have the salaries to make that work? I think Kelly would have to be bought out by Danny. Then again, who knows what Brad could string together?

Tried to take a look at buyout candidates making below the non-taxpayer MLE and found a few interesting names but it’s not pretty.


Delon Wright
Kelly Olynyk
Jeff Green
Monte Morris
Alec Burks
 

slamminsammya

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Sorry missed your first response. Let's take the play that you posted. I think that's Jarrett Allen guarding Horford. His foot is basically on the lane line - which is what 3 feet closer to the lane than what was occurring last night against IND. Plus, if you let the play continue, when JT drives the ball, Allen's first step is towards the lane. JT gets rid of the ball at a good time, which leaves us with the picture below.

No team in their right mind is giving KP that kind of room by design. And the corollary to this is that if Allen isn't that close to the lane, JT is playing 1 on 1 against the defender, and JT is going to score pretty darn efficiently if he's 1 on 1 against someone in the lane.

The spacing is completely different because KP and Jrue (to a lesser degree) have so much gravity.

View attachment 73310
Look I don't wanna get too pedantic about this, we all agree KP and Jrue have more gravity than Horford and smart.

there's just a lot of variables at play wrt spacing that make looking at a single screenshot not very compelling to me. where a defender positions themselves on the court is a function of not only the gravity of the mark but also where's the ball, how good is the defender at recovering, how much is the defender focused, what action is the offense running etc.

no doubt this team has a lot more stretching stress on a defense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Look I don't wanna get too pedantic about this, we all agree KP and Jrue have more gravity than Horford and smart.

there's just a lot of variables at play wrt spacing that make looking at a single screenshot not very compelling to me. where a defender positions themselves on the court is a function of not only the gravity of the mark but also where's the ball, how good is the defender at recovering, how much is the defender focused, what action is the offense running etc.

no doubt this team has a lot more stretching stress on a defense.
Definitely agree with your last statement but as for spacing, the screenshots are just an example but I agree that we should all focus on the actual plays. The example I showed my son is the play below. Note KP's and JB's defenders hugged up on them. So White does a simple curl and by the time Toppin reacts, White is in the lane driving to the basket and Toppin is only beginning to recover. But also note that there is absolutely no help from the other two defenders. So White just has to beat Toppin and he does for a layup. And even if he didn't, JT is being guarded by the shortest player on the court in the post.

We've just not seen things like this in year's past.

View: https://youtu.be/yRh4QvEtTuI?t=113
 

lexrageorge

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Do we have the salaries to make that work? I think Kelly would have to be bought out by Danny. Then again, who knows what Brad could string together?
There is no way for the Celtics to acquire Olynyk's $12.2M salary, given that the team can no longer aggregate outgoing salaries due to being above the final apron. So a buyout is the only way to make it happen. But he does just sneak under the $12.4M threshold for a buyout target, so there's that.

The NBA would not allow Brad to make an under the table deal with the Jazz to entice Danny to offer Olynyk a buyout.
 

lovegtm

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There is no way for the Celtics to acquire Olynyk's $12.2M salary, given that the team can no longer aggregate outgoing salaries due to being above the final apron. So a buyout is the only way to make it happen. But he does just sneak under the $12.4M threshold for a buyout target, so there's that.

The NBA would not allow Brad to make an under the table deal with the Jazz to entice Danny to offer Olynyk a buyout.
They can aggregate this year, not next. The Clippers just aggregated to acquire Harden.

I do agree that buyout is by far the most likely way this happens.
 

fairlee76

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His son apparently wrote a book on him that should at least be entertaining.

Those UNLV teams from the late 1980s were my favorite teams to watch. I particularly liked the 1986-87 UNLV team even though it didn't win the title. A friend of mine and I were big fans of Gerald Paddio, because of the way he looked when he shot the ball.

That tournament (86-87) was also famous for Bobby Knight's famous quote: "I was a bit concerned at one point (against LSU) but I looked at the other bench and saw Dale Brown there and didn't worry again."
Thanks for this as those UNLV teams (Paddio plus Gilliam and Banks) drew me in as well. Will need to go back and read all those articles.

Sorry for the derail, but I always loved Tarkanian for his willingness to (in my eyes) take a chance on kids who might otherwise have slipped through the cracks. He obviously benefited from it but it also felt like (again, in my 11 year old eyes) that doing right by them was also part of his mission/reason for coaching.
 

the moops

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Tried to take a look at buyout candidates making below the non-taxpayer MLE and found a few interesting names but it’s not pretty.


Delon Wright
Kelly Olynyk
Jeff Green
Monte Morris
Alec Burks
I think almost all those guys are more likely to be trade candidates than buyout guys
 

gammoseditor

also had a stroke
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Jul 17, 2005
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I think almost all those guys are more likely to be trade candidates than buyout guys

Right, and there could be potential buy out guys that move toward rebuilding teams to match contracts. I was just trying to find any interesting potential buyout guys. I was surprised at how hard it was.
 

SteveF

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One thing that does bear some watching:

Celtics are 28th in % of 2pt field goals assisted at 40.8% (median is 51.6%).
Celtics are 29th in % of 3pt field goals assisted at 70.1% (median is 84%).

You could argue that the focus on post ups is the cause for that drop in 2pt field goal assists, but I'm not sure what to make of the drop in 3pt field goal assists. Yes, they have guys who can shoot them off the dribble, but catch and shoot threes are made at a higher rate for nearly everyone.

Edit: To be clear, the correlation between offensive rating and assist percentage isn't strong. You can be the Golden State Warriors and have a great offense. You can be the Durant, Kyrie, Harden Nets (at least for 1 playoff series) and have a great offense.

Edit2: Celtics are shooting 46.3% on pull up 3s, which is totally unsustainable. They have the highest percentage (tied with Sacramento) on the highest volume (16.8! per game). They are at 37.5% on catch and shoot 3s, which I'd expect to improve if anything.
 
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benhogan

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The NBA would not allow Brad to make an under the table deal with the Jazz to entice Danny to offer Olynyk a buyout.
Clearly, the NBA doesn't allow under-the-table deals

BUT Agents backchannel client wishes all the time. I'm kind of joking about Brad, Danny, Zarren, and Austin doing something unsavory (Red-like)
 

FireChief

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Jul 9, 2023
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They can aggregate this year, not next. The Clippers just aggregated to acquire Harden.

I do agree that buyout is by far the most likely way this happens.
Correct. We’re potentially in for the wildest trade deadline and draft night dealings we’ve seen in a loooooong time as teams lock themselves into whichever CBA straight jacket they deem most advantageous to their 3ish year plans
 

HomeRunBaker

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Do we have the salaries to make that work? I think Kelly would have to be bought out by Danny. Then again, who knows what Brad could string together?
Yes if he's the target. It depends if we have injuries where we need a guy like him or are simply looking to upgrade our bench. Like I'd say Horford goes down we will likely be packaging guys to be sure we acquire a comparable replacement.
 

The Raccoon

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Of course, way too SSS, but the big surprise to me so far has been DW. He was killing it last night. I mean, I thought last year that DW was good and should have been playing more than MS, but again - SSS - maybe he's taking a leap.
I feel like the 2 plays against Miami starting at 1:45 in this video are new to his game / his role / his standing with the Celtics.
Taking an open shot or being a willing cutter was already a part of his game last year. But here he's defended by Herro and just bullies him to the basket. And this is with JT, JB, KP etc on the floor so he's certainly not the C's #1 option but he sees an opportunity and attacks without hesitation.
And there were a couple more similar situations where he attacked Herro or D.Robinson 1on1 and positive things happened.
As an opponent, if you can't hide your weak links on defense on DW, what you gonna do...?
 

lovegtm

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Apr 30, 2013
12,386
Yes if he's the target. It depends if we have injuries where we need a guy like him or are simply looking to upgrade our bench. Like I'd say Horford goes down we will likely be packaging guys to be sure we acquire a comparable replacement.
That's fairly tough to make the money work--how many min guys are you packaging? I think that kind of aggregation is possible post Dec 15, but still.
 

chilidawg

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Jan 22, 2015
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I feel like the 2 plays against Miami starting at 1:45 in this video are new to his game / his role / his standing with the Celtics.
Taking an open shot or being a willing cutter was already a part of his game last year. But here he's defended by Herro and just bullies him to the basket. And this is with JT, JB, KP etc on the floor so he's certainly not the C's #1 option but he sees an opportunity and attacks without hesitation.
And there were a couple more similar situations where he attacked Herro or D.Robinson 1on1 and positive things happened.
As an opponent, if you can't hide your weak links on defense on DW, what you gonna do...?
He also seems much more willing to take (and is making) the pull up 3 in transition. The team as a whole seems to be feasting on those.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
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Jan 15, 2004
30,481
That's fairly tough to make the money work--how many min guys are you packaging? I think that kind of aggregation is possible post Dec 15, but still.
If we are looking to dump a couple of those backend guys it can be done w 2-3 depending who they are. Whoever is 11-15 on the depth chart can easily be moved as it would also give us the opportunity for a buyout guy or two. All I'm saying is that we could add him for little cost but if a big went down we have the pieces to do it sooner and quicker
 

gammoseditor

also had a stroke
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
4,242
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I feel like the 2 plays against Miami starting at 1:45 in this video are new to his game / his role / his standing with the Celtics.
Taking an open shot or being a willing cutter was already a part of his game last year. But here he's defended by Herro and just bullies him to the basket. And this is with JT, JB, KP etc on the floor so he's certainly not the C's #1 option but he sees an opportunity and attacks without hesitation.
And there were a couple more similar situations where he attacked Herro or D.Robinson 1on1 and positive things happened.
As an opponent, if you can't hide your weak links on defense on DW, what you gonna do...?
That finish on the move at 1:45 looked like Sam Cassell. I know Scal has mentioned Sam has worked with Tatum on posting up but I assume he’s working with the guards too and the early results are promising.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
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Apr 12, 2005
42,106
That finish on the move at 1:45 looked like Sam Cassell. I know Scal has mentioned Sam has worked with Tatum on posting up but I assume he’s working with the guards too and the early results are promising.
Regularly last night, Sam Cassel was up off the bench spending time one on one between whistles, or during free throws, with Tatum, White and Jrue at different points. I noticed it because he was standing over by the end of where the coach can stand toward halfcourt, and I did a double take when I realized it wasn't Joe there.

Which also reminds me, Mark Walhlberg was court side with some dude, they showed him in the 1st quarter. He was never there again after the first quarter.
 

Manzivino

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Jul 31, 2006
7,182
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If we are looking to dump a couple of those backend guys it can be done w 2-3 depending who they are. Whoever is 11-15 on the depth chart can easily be moved as it would also give us the opportunity for a buyout guy or two. All I'm saying is that we could add him for little cost but if a big went down we have the pieces to do it sooner and quicker
If I am understanding the CBA correctly, teams over either tax apron can only take back up to 110% of outgoing salary in a trade this year. Olynyk make $12.195 this season, so the C's would have to send out $11.087 to trade for him. Nobody on the deep bench makes more than Kornet at $2.4, so you would have to aggregate all of Kornet/Brissett/Svi/Stevens/Banton/Walsh to trade for Olynyk. I think to make a trade work you would have to trade for some ballast with the Grant TPE, wait out the 60 day trade restriction, and then trade the acquired ballast with 3 of the bench mob in a 4-for-1. So it's doable, but incredibly unlikely. I think the more likely option for a 3rd big, that I know has been brought up in another thread, is that Chicago implodes and the C's flip a 2nd for Drummond (who, while obviously a different skillset, DARKO has rated rougly equivalent to Al and only makes $3.36).
 

chilidawg

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Kevin Pelton had this to say about the Celtics start:

Real: The Boston Celtics' start
That the Celtics started 4-0 isn't terribly surprising. After adding Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis this offseason, Boston was my pick to win the title and easily had the best wins projection of any team in my stats-based model.
It is impressive that the Celtics won a pair of games despite hot opposing shooting. Before Monday's blowout win against the Washington Wizards, opponents were hitting a league high 45% of 3s against Boston: 44% for the New York Knicks in the season opener and 48.5% for the Miami Heat in a conference finals rematch. Last season, teams went just 120-371 (.244) when opponents made at least 43% of their 3s. The Celtics were 3-6 in that situation, meaning their two wins so far nearly already match their entire 2022-23 total.
If anything, how well opponents shot simply gave Boston the ability to win close games down the stretch, showcasing what the Celtics hope will be different this season.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/38779966/examining-five-nba-trends-start-season
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
20,478
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Last season, teams went just 120-371 (.244) when opponents made at least 43% of their 3s. The Celtics were 3-6 in that situation, meaning their two wins so far nearly already match their entire 2022-23 total.
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/38779966/examining-five-nba-trends-start-season
My new favorite stat for Celtic in-game enjoyment.

Now if the opposing team gets hot from 3, it will be interesting to see if the Celtics can withstand shooting luck and pull out a win.
 

koufax32

He'll cry if he wants to...
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2006
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I’m beyond excited to be able to see if the “Tatum with a post up game becomes a serious MVP contender” theory is accurate. Early returns look fantastic.
 

chilidawg

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I’m beyond excited to be able to see if the “Tatum with a post up game becomes a serious MVP contender” theory is accurate. Early returns look fantastic.
So much balance among the C's starters that his scoring numbers might be a little off from last year, but he's got an opportunity to rack up some assists and rebounds and be a near triple double guy.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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I’m beyond excited to be able to see if the “Tatum with a post up game becomes a serious MVP contender” theory is accurate. Early returns look fantastic.
Having the best record in the league, especially by margin, can go a long way in getting him there too but it will take nothing short of an injury to get past Jokic.
 

NomarsFool

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Dec 21, 2001
8,292
Jokic had such a big advantage in terms of being most valuable to his team. Tatum could sit for a few weeks and the Celtics would still be really good
 

oumbi

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Jun 15, 2006
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Tried to take a look at buyout candidates making below the non-taxpayer MLE and found a few interesting names but it’s not pretty.


Delon Wright
Kelly Olynyk
Jeff Green
Monte Morris
Alec Burks
I would not mind Olly returning to the Celtics as the 9th player in the rotation. Last year in 29 minutes and 68 games he averaged 12.5 points, 5.6 rebounds, and 4 assists. He shot 39.4% on 3 pointers. If any current bench player did that SoSH would be happy as hell.