Seriously. If the league thought they were cheating BB and Kraft should get lifelong bans and they should be docked first rounders until Brady’s son is old enough to play.Penalty makes no sense. If the league is pretty sure the Pats cheated, should be another first. If they got nothing, should be a small fine or something.
Yeah this is bullshit, again, but fooling around with cameras is just stupidity. Do they not have a corporate compliance person whose only job is to prevent this crap from happening/That 3rd could easily be mid round. This sucks. All for a stupid fucking web series. NFL is a bunch of clowns but this was a self-inflicted wound.
It is a stupid half measure. Roger has to penalize them to appease the other owners, but the whole thing is bullshit, so he doesn't want to drop the hammer. So we get this, which makes no one happy.Penalty makes no sense. If the league is pretty sure the Pats cheated, should be another first. If they got nothing, should be a small fine or something.
Jesus, the next time Goodell's in New England overnight I hope he gets treated like the Hotel reviewer in Ocean's Thirteen.It's bullshit, but at least it's over. The penalty is about what I expected. We should feel lucky that it wasn't worse coming from this asshole.
I would have preferred losing a 2nd and getting another 5th or 6th.3rd round pick has a good chunk of value. Fairly annoyed
For the Patriots? Four.Is there a list of how many draft picks teams have been fined the last 15 years?
Yeah was curious about the whole league.For the Patriots? Four.
1st round pick for Spygate
1st and 4th for Deflategate
3rd round pick for video tapping
But I think you’re asking for the league overall.
13 since 2005 on according to wiki, Saints are the only other team to lose much of value with 2 2nds from bountygate. Chiefs lost a 3rd and a 5th for tampering.Is there a list of how many draft picks teams have been fined the last 15 years?
For the Patriots? Four.
1st round pick forSpygatepissing off Roger
1st and 4th forDeflategatehaving pissed off Roger
3rd round pick forvideo tappinghaving pissed off Roger
But I think you’re asking for the league overall.
First Spygate was $500K to BB and $250K for the team, for context.Would be interested to know how the fine was chosen at 1.1 mill?
Didn’t realize that random of a number was on the wheel of justice.
Not surprising at all. Good on Jonathan, if this is true.I have a friend within the organization who is very close to this situation and this person tells me that - and this is insane - the penalty was going to be much harsher and Jonathan talked them down to the 3rd. Infuriating. This league SUCKS.
????? Good on Jonathan? I don’t get it.Not surprising at all. Good on Jonathan, if this is true.
What don’t you get? If the original penalty was harsher, like a 1st, and Jonathan successfully talked them down to a 3rd then...good on Jonathan.????? Good on Jonathan? I don’t get it.
He might have simply walked through all of the evidence and made a convincing argument that nothing underhanded was going on here. Or at least created enough doubt. Maybe also revisited the swift, decisive actions that the Patriots themselves took in response to the screw up.How does Jonathan Kraft talk the league into just taking away a 3rd if the league has all the leverage? The only thing I can think of is basically saying that if they took any more that this time the team would take it to court and be looking for blood. Otherwise, why would the league care? What else could NE do?
But wouldn't the league already know that? I'm not saying that inside source is wrong, just trying to figure out how Jonathan Kraft had any sway with the league's disciplinary office when they, seemingly, had the team dead to rights.He might have simply walked through all of the evidence and made a convincing argument that nothing underhanded was going on here. Or at least created enough doubt. Maybe also revisited the swift, decisive actions that the Patriots themselves took in response to the screw up.
Persuasion. Defense attorneys spin closing arguments rather than letting the evidence speak for itself.But wouldn't the league already know that? I'm not saying that inside source is wrong, just trying to figure out how Jonathan Kraft had any sway with the league's disciplinary office when they, seemingly, had the team dead to rights.
You may not enjoy the next 2500 posts in this thread.Really with this? This and Spygate are both legit, you can argue about levels of punishment, but they deserved both.
Oh, I'm aware...You may not enjoy the next 2500 posts in this thread.
What I was told by my friend is that part of why Jonathan was able to get them down to a 3rd is that they had a lot of the facts wrong. Which, again, is insane and infuriating, especially given how fucking long they investigated something that was in no plausible way nefarious. Stupid? Yes. Worth a small penalty? Sure. But the level of punishment is so disproportionate that it has the effect of making the infraction seem more deliberate and villainous than it is.How does Jonathan Kraft talk the league into just taking away a 3rd if the league has all the leverage? The only thing I can think of is basically saying that if they took any more that this time the team would take it to court and be looking for blood. Otherwise, why would the league care? What else could NE do?
I get what you're saying - particularly about levels of punishment - but I don't believe either offense is legit. Spygate emanates from ignoring a memo, not a rule. How that merits punishment - especially in the way it was handed out with zero context on exactly what the offense was - is beyond me. Rules are rules. Non-rules are... non-rules.Really with this? This and Spygate are both legit, you can argue about levels of punishment, but they deserved both.
Edit: To @karvtelo
To Spygate, I'm pretty sure even BB himself has admitted his own hubris there. Memo vs rule, well, at one point there wasn't much difference; Goodell just issued a memo to all the teams about when and how to reopen facilities - if someone ignored that and was having OTAs this week, I'd expect them to be punished. The league's communication with the fanbase or public is neither here nor there. That's not really their job. BB knew what he was doing, he flaunted it and his former lackey got pissed and ratted him out. I think Bountygate is a much more egregious offense, re: the league. Again, did they get a tad overzealous with their penalty? Yes, but they deserved something. That's on BB.I get what you're saying - particularly about levels of punishment - but I don't believe either offense is legit. Spygate emanates from ignoring a memo, not a rule. How that merits punishment - especially in the way it was handed out with zero context on exactly what the offense was - is beyond me. Rules are rules. Non-rules are... non-rules.
This latest incident offers zero evidence that there was a connection between the video production team and the football operation. Just as the Pats perhaps deserved greater scrutiny given the past perception, the NFL also deserved greater scrutiny given the outlandish abuse of its authority in the past. If the NFL had proof of a connection between football ops and web content providers and transparently laid out the case for the punishment, then I'd agree that it's legit. Right now, this is a backroom knifing of a guy who has rumors of a bad reputation.
There's no doubt BB was pushing it regarding Spygate, but he's not breaking the rule. If Goodell wants to punish him for breaking a rule, establish the rule as the NFL bylaws dictate and then have at it if any transgressions then occur. Until then, eat it - there are procedures and every other NFL owner should have had Kraft's back here. I don't think it's fair to equate CV memos with sideline videotaping memos. CV is literally life and death. I think one of the NFL's jobs is to absolutely inform fans. Fans pay the bills and expect a league that has integrity. Or maybe I'm projecting.To Spygate, I'm pretty sure even BB himself has admitted his own hubris there. Memo vs rule, well, at one point there wasn't much difference; Goodell just issued a memo to all the teams about when and how to reopen facilities - if someone ignored that and was having OTAs this week, I'd expect them to be punished. The league's communication with the fanbase or public is neither here nor there. That's not really their job. BB knew what he was doing, he flaunted it and his former lackey got pissed and ratted him out. I think Bountygate is a much more egregious offense, re: the league. Again, did they get a tad overzealous with their penalty? Yes, but they deserved something. That's on BB.
The latest one, I don't particularly find it relevant if there's zero evidence (that we have seen or heard of; doesn't mean it's all out there); having watched the film in question, I don't even see what they could possibly gain from it or why they would try against the Bengals, but the point is they never should have allowed it to even be an issue. You can't claim the Patriot Way and espouse always being prepared, etc and then "oh, sorry, the production guy forgot to get clearance...". I understand they do these type of things to garner more traffic and revenue, but if need be hire a person who's sole job is to make sure there's nothing that can be misconstrued. Call it VP of CYA. As I said earlier, Idiot Tax. This falls on the Krafts, imo.
Deflategate, knock yourself out, it was obviously ridiculous in any way imaginable.
Was it though? OK it was ridiculous. But it makes perfect sense.Deflategate, knock yourself out, it was obviously ridiculous in any way imaginable.
I'm not looking to get into a semantics debate about the weight of particular memos, I cited the COVID memo because it was the most recent one. The point is they probably shouldn't be ignored.There's no doubt BB was pushing it regarding Spygate, but he's not breaking the rule. If Goodell wants to punish him for breaking a rule, establish the rule as the NFL bylaws dictate and then have at it if any transgressions then occur. Until then, eat it - there are procedures and every other NFL owner should have had Kraft's back here. I don't think it's fair to equate CV memos with sideline videotaping memos. CV is literally life and death. I think one of the NFL's jobs is to absolutely inform fans. Fans pay the bills and expect a league that has integrity. Or maybe I'm projecting.
Sorry, zero evidence is all. If they didn't put the evidence out there, I think it's fair to believe it doesn't exist. My understanding is that the vid production unit did get some sort of clearance or at least announced their presence in advance. I agree that there should be an overseer for the Pats on all things the organization does - for the team's and Kraft's self-interest. That they don't is stupid, but to me it doesn't have much relevance with why the NFL would punish without evidence.
These are games and it's ridiculous how damn serious and self-important the NFL regards itself. Some humility on their part is long overdue.
Not looking to bicker either. You put out your position and I put out mine. It's clear we disagree so that's it. It's fine.I'm not looking to get into a semantics debate about the weight of particular memos, I cited the COVID memo because it was the most recent one. The point is they probably shouldn't be ignored.
Your second statement, you're saying "if they didn't put it out, it doesn't exist", when we've seen during the other scandals discussed, they don't until pushed or even taken to court; you express frustration that they held back on Spygate, but that here there's nothing more to see? The video crew shouldn't have been filming the sidelines in Cincinnati. Period. End of discussion. The rest is irrelevant and I'm not going to bicker about the various disputed recollections of the event. It shouldn't have ever happened.
There are 2 issues with the argument that Belichick ignored a simple memo and therefore should not have been punished for the original Spygate:Not looking to bicker either. You put out your position and I put out mine. It's clear we disagree so that's it. It's fine.
Just to address one point - I don't care what the NFL has set as its precedented behavior on these punishments. It was unfair then and it's unfair now and it shouldn't be acceptable behavior. Probably naive on my part. I like clear rules and transparency on their enforcement. If they don't want to share evidence, then I don't see a reason why I have to assume they have it. Again, we disagree and I'm fine leaving it here.
In the eyes of the league and other owners, they are. Which is why they shouldn't expect to get the same punishment as the Chargers would and why they should make sure they aren't leaving themselves open to it. Right wrong or indifferent, they're smart enough people to understand the distinction of validity means nothing.So when this second stupid taping thing hit, it comes with all that baggage. Oh those evil Patriots are doing it AGAIN...they just can't help but cheat. That sentiment runs through all other fanbases and obviously other teams' ownerships. And so the Pats got hit with a pretty hefty penalty for something that if, say, the Chargers, had done it, would have merited like a $20,000 fine if anything, but certainly nothing like what the Pats got.
So Spygate was a legit violation, but wayyyyyy less of one than was portrayed by the punishment. And every time the Pats slip up, the punishment is way out of whack because it all reinforces this perception and the idea that the Pats are "multiple time offenders". One could fairly say that every penalty the Pats received since Spygate is part of the Spygate punishment.
The first is a good point and I'll admit I forgot about the game day procedure manual which ups the legitimacy somewhat of the NFL's judgement. I'd feel comfortable arguing BB's position regarding rules vs. memos in a court of law, since - as you say - none of the taping impacted actual game play which is what the manual oversees while the wording there is less than precise. Outside of that court - and this directly ties to BB's hubris - the notion that BB could flout the memo and would then be allowed to skate away unimpeded by the man who wrote the memo is wishful thinking by him. I still don't see the illegality, but am willing to concede that there's enough there in total to merit a punishment. It goes without saying, however, that it was excessive and should have been handed out with a perfectly clear explanation on the exact transgression. And my apologies if this does exist - it's been a long time.There are 2 issues with the argument that Belichick ignored a simple memo and therefore should not have been punished for the original Spygate:
1.) The Patriots taping of video signals from the sidelines was contrary* to the policies and procedures spelled out in the league's game day procedure manual, which teams are expected to follow as per the league's bylaws. The league's bylaws also give the commissioner broad powers to update the manual as he sees fit. The procedures do not follow under a "rule" per-se, as they are not relevant to the play of the game itself; the location of a video camera on the sidelines or in the coaches booth does not impact actual game play. But that doesn't mean coaches or teams can ignore those game day policies, or any memos from the commissioner's office.
2.) The commissioner's office, as per the league's bylaws, also has wide latitude to punish acts that are deemed as providing an unfair advantage. The other leagues have similar wording in their bylaws, so the NFL is not necessarily an outlier.
The problem was that incident got blown up and way out of proportion by the media, by owners who were simply tired of the Patriots winning, and by others that simply hate Belichick. The offense deserved at most a fine and a docking of a 5th or 6th round draft pick; had Tagliabule still been commissioner, that would have been the punishment.
I *'ed "contrary" above because the wording of the so-called clarifying memo was confusing and left open to interpretation. I tend to think Belichick knew the intent of the rule, and he probably figured he could get away with it by claiming he didn't use the tapes during the game itself if he was ever questioned.
The reason the other owners and league thinks they cheat is (1) because they've never ever seen this kind of sustained success before and they cannot fathom that the Patriots are simply that much better than *everyone else* at this, so there must be some other reason, and (2) the Pats *did* break a rule that sure seems like it could at least partially explain (to them anyway) the level of the Pats' success. When the league hammered them with a way out-of-proportion penalty, it only solidified this in their minds, and everything else that has come since is only "oh the Pats, still cheating" confirmation. I mean it's so dumb but when headsets go out - something that the NFL, not the Patriots, are in full control of - and others around the league STILL think it's the Pats doing nefarious things, that tells you that people just aren't rational about this.In the eyes of the league and other owners, they are. Which is why they shouldn't expect to get the same punishment as the Chargers would and why they should make sure they aren't leaving themselves open to it. Right wrong or indifferent, they're smart enough people to understand the distinction of validity means nothing.
None that I know of. But that's two times: One, which was simply PHYSICS, and another, which had nothing to do with football and was about a team documentary - and in both cases BB was completely cleared even by a league DYING to nail his hide to the wall - in both cases they got hit with a penalty that FAR outweighed what ought to have been the case.Other than Deflategate - which I think can at least partially be blamed on the media ("Hi Chris! ) - and this, what penalties have they received since?
Yeah, I'm aware of why things are in their current state and what's happened, I don't need a rundown, but thank you. The reasons don't matter, their status does. They broke a rule or a by law or a memo; it involved stealing signs, i.e. cheating. It doesn't matter who did it before them or since; or whether or not the league brought down hard or overly harsh penalties on them for it. It is what it is. The fans being thrown off by how harsh the penalty was is pretty irrelevant to their standing as multiple offenders with the league. So, yeah, when they get caught tapping the sidelines again, it's going to be brought back up, for no other reason than that. I'm honestly not even sure the point of your two posts, if you're arguing with me (in good faith) or if you think you're telling me or anyone else here something they don't already know.The reason the other owners and league thinks they cheat is (1) because they've never ever seen this kind of sustained success before and they cannot fathom that the Patriots are simply that much better than *everyone else* at this, so there must be some other reason, and (2) the Pats *did* break a rule that sure seems like it could at least partially explain (to them anyway) the level of the Pats' success. When the league hammered them with a way out-of-proportion penalty, it only solidified this in their minds, and everything else that has come since is only "oh the Pats, still cheating" confirmation. I mean it's so dumb but when headsets go out - something that the NFL, not the Patriots, are in full control of - and others around the league STILL think it's the Pats doing nefarious things, that tells you that people just aren't rational about this.
None that I know of. But that's two times: One, which was simply PHYSICS, and another, which had nothing to do with football and was about a team documentary - and in both cases BB was completely cleared even by a league DYING to nail his hide to the wall - in both cases they got hit with a penalty that FAR outweighed what ought to have been the case.
And the penalties are this harsh because the Pats are seen as multiple time offenders. But the only reason for THAT is because the Spygate penalty was so outlandish, that it painted them as a cheating organization.
So it's all just a self-fulfilling prophecy now. It's confirmation bias. The Pats have only slipped up twice since Spygate. Once, really, on a totally non-football thing (this Bengals taping). The other wasn't even anything the Patriots DID, but was totally made up.
I know what you're saying, and I don't feel like we're having an argument. Just a conversation. My point is that while I agree the they have the standing of multiple time offender, which means they need to be extra cautious (and what they did was unbelievably stupid and deserved SOME penalty), I do think it's important to point out that the reason they are considered multiple time offenders (which means increased penalties for subsequent infractions) is because (1) Spygate was blown WAY out of proportion, and (2) the NFL literally made something up about the team and frigging *hammered* them for it, based on what they made up and based on the Spygate precedent.Yeah, I'm aware of why things are in their current state and what's happened, I don't need a rundown, but thank you. The reasons don't matter, their status does. They broke a rule or a by law or a memo; it involved stealing signs, i.e. cheating. It doesn't matter who did it before them or since; or whether or not the league brought down hard or overly harsh penalties on them for it. It is what it is. The fans being thrown off by how harsh the penalty was is pretty irrelevant to their standing as multiple offenders with the league. So, yeah, when they get caught tapping the sidelines again, it's going to be brought back up, for no other reason than that. I'm honestly not even sure the point of your two posts, if you're arguing with me (in good faith) or if you think you're telling me or anyone else here something they don't already know.
If you walk into traffic once and get hit, you're bound to have it coming; then next time, a car runs a red and hits you, ok you're a victim; don't you think the third time you cross the street, you might take extra precautions? Or are you then just an idiot?
But they weren’t stealing signs aka cheating. They were filming from the wrong place. But they could have filmed from somewhere else and gotten the same material. That was the problem with Spygate. They didn’t gain any kind of advantage from the filming location. But they got labeled as cheaters.Yeah, I'm aware of why things are in their current state and what's happened, I don't need a rundown, but thank you. The reasons don't matter, their status does. They broke a rule or a by law or a memo; it involved stealing signs, i.e. cheating. It doesn't matter who did it before them or since; or whether or not the league brought down hard or overly harsh penalties on them for it. It is what it is. The fans being thrown off by how harsh the penalty was is pretty irrelevant to their standing as multiple offenders with the league. So, yeah, when they get caught tapping the sidelines again, it's going to be brought back up, for no other reason than that. I'm honestly not even sure the point of your two posts, if you're arguing with me (in good faith) or if you think you're telling me or anyone else here something they don't already know.
If you walk into traffic once and get hit, you're bound to have it coming; then next time, a car runs a red and hits you, ok you're a victim; don't you think the third time you cross the street, you might take extra precautions? Or are you then just an idiot?
What were they filming the defensive coaches for then, their fashion choices? I'm aware they could have moved twenty feet back into the stands and done it, but they didn't. BB ignored the memo. They got caught. That's really all there is to it.But they weren’t stealing signs aka cheating. They were filming from the wrong place. But they could have filmed from somewhere else and gotten the same material. That was the problem with Spygate. They didn’t gain any kind of advantage from the filming location. But they got labeled as cheaters.