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2017 NBA offseason thread

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by soxhop411, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Maybe he won't have to as a team will possibly be comfortable making an UFA offer knowing Ainge isn't going to open the vault for Smart. If that doesn't happen and Ainge does what I expect in undercutting him than Smart may not have a choice without costing himself tens of millions of dollars. I can't envision Smart signing anything close to a 4/$48m deal and if he does that agent shouldn't ever get another client ever with the contracts out there for Hardaway Jr, Josh Richardson, and now Gary Harris.
     
  2. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Interesting. OKC stands out as the most egregiously low to me. 48.6?

    Also, I'll pretty much eat my hat if the Knicks finish ahead of the Nets, assuming good health all around.
     
  3. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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  4. bowiac

    bowiac I've been living a lie. Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Russell Westbrook breaks all the models - I project him to regress dramatically. I'll look into that, as it does seem a bit extreme.

    As far as the Celtics number goes, the core metric driving this is similar to RAPM, so it's not a huge shock that the Celtics have gone backwards by losing RAPM darlings like Crowder, Olynyk, and Amir. In some ways, that's the limit of the model: if one thinks those guys are fungible who are largely replaceable by Morris, Tatum and Baynes, then it's gonna be a miss on the Celtics. Only thing I can say is these projections have performed well the last few years despite these limitations. Subjectively, the Celtics seem very thin to me however, and they're going to be giving a lot of minutes to Brown and Tatum in all likelihood, both of whom I expect to drag the team down this year.
     
  5. Manzivino

    Manzivino Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Who does RAPM love on Charlotte? That's the outlier that jumps out to me.

    I think the Celtics total depends largely on how much time Irving/Hayward/Horford miss, if those 3 play 70+ games I have a hard time envisioning them winning under 50 given the number of cupcakes in the East.
     
  6. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Morning tidbit: 5 of the top 8 picks in last summers draft are currently out injured. Fultz, Fox, Ball, Ntiilikina, and Markkanen are all currently out injured and missing preseason time.
     
  7. bowiac

    bowiac I've been living a lie. Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Zeller is the "surprise" guy on that team (I project +3.1 points per 100 possessions for him), but their number is mostly driven by good depth, with nobody other than Monk projected to play significant minutes and be a minus.

    Just as when this system was spitting out very positive projections on the Celtics largely due to their depth (and raising a lot of eyebrows here), Charlotte gets a nice projection from just going 9 deep with quality NBA players. That may not be of much use in the playoffs, but it wins regular season games.
     
  8. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Alridge with an update on the status of extensions for the 2014 Draft Class (including Smart): http://www.nba.com/article/2017/10/...ks-andrew-wiggins-jabari-parker-joel-embiid#/. Only 3 have been done - Harris (as discussed above) and TJ Warren and Bogdanovic. Wiggins apparently has a deal in place. It will be extremely interesting to see what happens with Embiid.

    But other than those two, and probably some team friendly deals for players who haven't really made a mark yet, it will be interesting to see who gets done. Nurkic will probably get done. Co should Smart and Capela, but there may be a money gap with respect to those two. I don't know if LAL can sign Randle and keep cap space free for free agents (cough LBJ cough).

    Other than those guys, the rest of that draft class is, well, uninspiring or injury-prone or both.
     
  9. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I am more pessimistic on OKC than many; as I noted around time of that trade, I think the fit of those guys is questionable, and the depth is pretty weak. I wouldn't be surprised if they disappoint some in regular season, at least relative to expectations that they are somewhat competitive with GS or teams like that.

    Virtually every rotation player on the Celtics has either a 'transition' question on role/team (Kyrie in particular) or a high delta in terms of production (Tatum, Brown, Smart come to mind there). I think their projected win total is a little low, though I also think the range they might realistically experience is pretty wide...anywhere between 45 and the high 50s is conceivable to me, with the mean somewhere around 50-52 in my mind. A model using RAPM and valuing depth is going to see them as same or inferior to last year, and should as it can only do age-based projection really.
     
  10. Grin&MartyBarret

    Grin&MartyBarret Member SoSH Member

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    Out of curiosity, does this account for Batum's injury?
     
  11. bowiac

    bowiac I've been living a lie. Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah - I'm projecting him to play in 48 games at 33 minutes per game.
     
  12. moly99

    moly99 Member SoSH Member

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    This was discussed ad nauseam in the Kyrie trade thread. Kyrie's advanced stats were f----- putrid with Cleveland. Thomas on his own last year was better statistically than Irving even without throwing in Crowder.

    Add in the losses of very high quality veterans of players like Amir and Olynyk and their replacement with young guys and it is virtually inevitable that any statistical model will downgrade this Celtics team over last year's team even with the addition of Hayward.

    If you feel that Kyrie is being unfairly shafted by advanced stats, that advanced stat heroes like Crowder are shitty players in real life, or that Tatum will be instantly great as a rookie like LeBron, then feel free to ignore bowiac's model. But you can't blame a statistical model for being based on past stats.
     
  13. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    "f--- putrid" sounds like a pretty big overstatement, Kyrie was +2.06 by RPM last season, #11 among point guards, right after John Wall. Dude put up 25.9 points per 36 last season on .580 true shooting — which over the last three seasons puts him in a group with Curry, Harden, Durant, AD, IT and Lillard (that's the complete list). What advanced stats are you looking at?
     
  14. moly99

    moly99 Member SoSH Member

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    Putrid relative to his reputation. Advanced stats say that Kyrie is not even a top 10 point guard, while his reputation has him as a top 10 player in the league. If LeBron, Durant, Westbrook or Curry had a season where they ranked outside of the top 50 in the NBA I would call that a putrid/miserable/awful season.

    People who judge players based on their reputation are not going to be satisfied by any model that projects Kyrie's future performance on his past stats. Unless shoe sales are used as a key statistic, I guess.
     
    #1564 moly99, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  15. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know anyone who has Kyrie in their top 10. Most have him somewhere in the top 25.
     
  16. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Kyrie's metrics surely take a hit due to his inconsistencies during the regular season which Celtics fans are probably not going to take too kindly when it inevitably occurs.

    Removing Game #82 last season, Isaiah had ZERO games of scoring less than 18 points. He was the model of offensive consistency. In the games he didn't have it going you knew he'd perk up in the 4th quarter which he always did. Kyrie isn't like this at all.....he had 7 games (nearly 10% of his starts) of scoring less than 18 which included two single-digit games. Regular season Isaiah (of the past when he was healthy) was a better NBA player than regular season Kyrie last season.......Kyrie has been the far better playoff performer once those dynamics change the game from that of the regular season.

    It isn't as cut and dry as to say this player is ranked here and that player is ranked there. I lean toward bowiac's projection of 47 as a couple little injuries and that back end of our rotation will go from established NBA rotation players to a bunch of rookies with zero NBA experience in addition to Jaylen and Tatum. That matters huge in the NBA regular season as these guys play 16-20 mpg.

    In a sense I feel this is a bridge year for Ainge to build his team around a Kyrie/Gordon core and a lot of Celtics fan may not like how this regular season plays out. This is the first year of an era.....an era that has a lengthy window. I know it's difficult with Boston sports fans who are caught up in the present but we must recognize that there could (should?) be a lot of bumps in the road with this seasons team......particularly if we get hit with the injury bug and our 10th-12th men get bumped up into regular rotation minutes.
     
  17. moly99

    moly99 Member SoSH Member

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    He was #2 overall in the NBA in shoe sales last year, fifth in last year's fan all-star voting, on the cover of NBA 2K18, on the cover of NBA Live, etc. In terms of branding and popularity he is clearly one of the top 10 players in the NBA.
     
  18. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    That's not the same thing, but I'll let you have it. I'm sure a lot of that was due to the LeBron factor.
     
  19. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    At the very least, there's only like one person on this board who has made the claim he's a top 10 player. I forgot the poster though. A few more think he has the potential to be top 10.
     
  20. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    You will after this season.:fonz:
     
  21. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    11,953
  22. moly99

    moly99 Member SoSH Member

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    Well, that's what I meant by reputation. You can substitute the terms popularity or fame if you prefer: status instead of stats.
     
  23. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Jeremy Lin and Lonzo Ball are more famous than Kemba Walker; fame doesn't really matter when it comes to evaluating players.
     
  24. moly99

    moly99 Member SoSH Member

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    I will agree that it should not. But that is how many people evaluate teams. For example ignoring depth and judging teams on the basis of how many superstars they have.
     
  25. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Cavs finally bust out all their heavy-hitters: Love, LeBron, Crowder, Wade, Rose playing nearly starters' minutes, with Thompson, Smith, Shumpert, Green, Korver coming off the bench.

    ... And they get blown out 108-94 on their home floor by the Bulls, the nominal worst team in the NBA, led by Justin Holiday (28) and Lauri Markkanen (18).

    Preseason alert, but I think it's fair to expect some early chemistry issues with this team, on both ends of the floor.
     
  26. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Zizic has looked terrible too.

    Edit: Kind of. Turnovers and Personal fouls.
     
  27. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    If Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, or Curry had a season where the advanced metrics had them outside of the top 50, then those metrics would be stupid.
     
  28. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Who really does that? Stupid people who leave comments on NBA YouTube? The opinions of former players/coaches/executives or people who cover the league for a living are really the only people whose opinions should be really valued; and I don't hear a majority of them saying Kyrie is one of the ten best players in the league.
     
  29. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    You've never heard of Bill Simmons?
     
  30. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    This was also a regular season alert post-All Star Break last year when they lost 11 out of 18. They are built for the playoffs even more than last years team if that is even possible. We could be looking at them as a 3-4 seed and still the favorites to represent the EC in The Finals.
     
  31. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Really? I feel like they're built less for the playoffs and more for the regular season than they were last year. They're certainly deeper #1-12, but barring a miraculous return to full health by IT (and a quick study of the Cavs systems, etc.) I feel their top 3-4 has taken a step back.

    Who's even their #2 guy right now? I would have said Kevin Love — I think it's already somewhat problematic when your #2 guy is Kevin Love, but thought that maybe with the departure of Kyrie, he might take a step forward by regaining some of the playmaking/initiating duties that made him such an effective player in Minnesota. The Minnesota Kevin Love is not a bad #2. But now that they've glutted themselves with not one but three ball-dominant initiators (Rose, Wade, IT) the chances of him significantly expanding his playmaking are pretty much nil, and he'll be mostly reduced to a floor-spacing stretch 5.

    Meanwhile, on the other end of the floor, they'll be playing to Love's weaknesses by asking him to be their primary rim defender. And I'm not sure their smallish 3-4 of Crowder and LeBron have the length or shotblocking chops to give him enough help there. Blocked shots aren't everything, but for a quick and dirty comparison: KD and Draymond helped out their centers last year by combining for 205 blocks in ~4500 minutes. LeBron and Crowder combined for 67 blocks in ~5000 minutes.

    I see a potential step back on both ends of the floor for them, with a near-certain step back in terms of overall chemistry, which was one of their biggest strengths last year. Last year's LeBron-Kyrie-Love-TT-Smith core had developed a great synergy over three seasons that made them fairly bulletproof against Eastern competition. Now that's gone, JR is already grumbling about being benched, Shumpert wants out, Love has to be wondering where his touches come from between Wade, Rose and LeBron, etc. They may get the chemistry right by the end of the season, but that doesn't always happen (viz. 2011 Heat). Also, by the end of season, the aging legs of 33-year-old LeBron and 36-year-old Wade will be eight months older than they are now.

    Sure, they'll be favorites to make the Finals, barring something calamitous, but I think they'll be less prohibitive favorites than they were last year, and will have a tougher slog getting there (not saying much given last year's cakewalk, but still).
     
    #1581 Sam Ray Not, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  32. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    The combination of the D-Rose and Wade moves is pretty baffling. Imo, LeBron is at his best when he is surrounded by shooters, and one other guy to do the dirty work. A line-up of Irving, Smith, James, Love and Thompson was great because it gave LeBron three good shooters to throw his cross-court dimes to, and a guy that would rebound, set picks and defend the rim. Now James is working with two non-shooters, and to compensate for that they moved Thompson out of the starting lineup to slide another shooter (Crowder or Korver) in and are now playing Love out of position. How is that better? They just became a lot easier to defend because you don't have to respect shooting from two players who normally play a shooting-based position. Maybe you snag one of Wade and Rose, but certainly not both. It seems like they signed Rose and didn't realize Wade was going to be available, but when he was bought out, they decided to bring him on board, regardless of fit.
     
  33. Grin&MartyBarret

    Grin&MartyBarret Member SoSH Member

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    Why are people assuming two minimum contract guys are playing crunch time minutes?

    Rose was signed to be a backup point guard, which is what he'll be when IT comes back. Wade was signed to provide slashing/offense for second units. That they're starting now has as much to do with injuries as anything else.

    There are a ton of lineup options that allow them to surround James with shooters. Hell, the one you mentioned is still an option -- but with IT slotted in for Irving. Or, because James is the playmaker, you could go Smith/Crowder/James/Love/Thompson. They still have a ton of shooting, and Crowder gives them more defensive versatility. And that's before you even consider what Korver, Osman, and Calderon give them.
     
  34. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    I'm assuming IT isn't healthy but who knows? That would make Rose the likely crunch time PG, unless they don't use a traditional one. I can't really see them using Wade like he is Lou Williams and never closes a game out; there is too much history there unless he is willing to make a huge sacrifice. You are right in that they have plenty of options, we'll have to see how it plays out. I just don't think signing two guards who can't shoot and are slotted into starting spots (injuries or not) makes them a more difficult team to defend.
     
  35. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Two minimum contract guys who think of themselves as superstars, one of whom is longtime BFFs with LeBron. I think it's just as much of a stretch to assume there will be no chemistry or ego issues if/when the gimpy, 5'-7" newcomer takes over and both Wade and Rose are relegated to splitting Deron Williams' low leverage table-scrap minutes from last season.

    That mostly makes sense, except for the fact that they've already made an active (bad) decision to install Wade in the starting unit instead of JR Smith, a much better shooter, floor spacer and defender. They may realize quickly that was a bad move (for all the reasons Kliq notes) and adjust their rotations accordingly, but for now it looks like a pretty bad omen in terms of their willingness to prioritize winning basketball over coddling LeBron's BFFs.

    I'd consider Osman and Calderon effectively zeroes till proven otherwise. Korver's probably still a solid plus, but he turns 37 this season, and some day soon his slowness and inability to guard NBA rotation players will offset his great three-point shooting (as happened to Channing Frye last year).
     
  36. Grin&MartyBarret

    Grin&MartyBarret Member SoSH Member

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    You think that the Derrick Rose who just struck out in free agency, got ran out of New York by the league's stupidest franchise, and ended up signing for the league minimum to backup Kyrie Irving thinks of himself as a superstar still?

    I mean, don't get me wrong, I do understand the concerns. It's not like I think Rose is some fantastic fit or anything, but I also think it's basically a non-issue and people bending over backwards to denounce how a backup point guard fits with this team feels silly to me. In fact, if I had to bet, I'd actually be more inclined to think Rose doesn't end this season with the Cavs than I would be to think he plays meaningful playoff minutes for them.

    Particularly given how biased your assessment of the situation clearly is. I mean, you do see that assuming that IT is gimpy, Rose thinks of himself as a superstar, and that for some reason the only bench minutes Cleveland has to fill are the 14 playoff minutes Williams played last year is far from a balanced view of the situation, right? And that's before we get to the LeBron BFFs comment.

    Also -- I don't really care who starts. I'm much more interested in who plays minutes and the rotations they use. If Wade starts but plays all of 20 minutes, that's about in line with what I'd expect. I think you're placing a bit too much importance on the starting lineup.

    As for Osman and Calderon, I suggested them as the 7th and 8th option for shooter heavy lineups. Not even the 7th and 8th men overall. I'm just saying they're shooters that give the Cavs the ability to put shooters around LeBron.
     
  37. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Haha, yeah, I'm biased in the sense that I dislike the Cavs. And I may well be overreacting to last night's one-game preseason sample. But I tend to measure my assessments of other teams based on how much I fear them as a rival to the Warriors, and in that regard, if I squint I can see more things to fear in Houston's, OKC's and SA's rosters and best units than I do in Cleveland's.

    From what I've read about his injury, it has serious potential to be chronic and/or deteriorate, no? Kliq also is assuming he's not healthy. My sense is that it's just as realistic to think he'll be at least somewhat "gimpy" as it is to think he'll be peak 2015 IT. Most likely I suspect he'll be somewhere in between, and then you risk getting into grey areas which can sometimes be more troublesome than clarity one way or the other. ("Is Isaiah nursing an injury"? "What happened to last year's IT?" "Is Rose unhappy with his limited or undefined role?" Etc. etc.)

    I mean, he's only 29, and his minutes and fga per game last season (32.5 and 15.3) were not far off his career averages (34.7 and 16.8). I could definitely see him chafing at being benched for IT, especially if he's been putting up superficially good counting numbers (as I suspect he will). And the fact that the two are effectively unplayable together (unlike, say CP3 and Harden, or Curry and Livingston) may exacerbate the problem. I also get the sense he's just a bad egg, but that may be neither here nor there with respect to how well he deals with a diminished role. The King does have a way of keeping other egos in check. (And as you say, they can always trade him if IT is fully healthy).

    From everything I've read they're very close friends who spend a ton of time together in the offseason. Is it outlandish to think that might present serious chemistry challenges for Lue and co? By way of comparison: it's been widely reported that the presence of Austin Rivers caused a ton of clubhouse friction in Clipperland. I could definitely see similar weirdness if someone like JR thinks Wade is getting an overly favorable shake due to his closeness with the King. He has already said he's "absolutely" frustrated by the benching. Dude was last seen putting up .698 true shooting as a starter in the playoffs.

    Yeah, that could well be. They can definitely run out some units that look far more interesting (read: scarier) than their current starting 5.

    The "who's their #2 guy?" question remains for me. I almost feel like it may be Jae Crowder when you factor in both ends of the floor (which is why I was pissed the Cs coughed him up so easily), but that to me is the core problem: they seem stacked with specialists who are fine as your #5-12 rotation guys, but light on guys who are dominant or multi-dimensional enough to be part of a championship Big 3 or Big 4.

    After last season, I felt that the Cavs' biggest hope for a significant jump forward came from either (1) flipping Love for Paul George (which apparently was scarily close to happening, till Griffin walked out); and/or (2) the small-but-real chance that 25 y.o. Kyrie's elite shooting ability gave him some untapped 2014 Steph Curry potential, given a bit more usage (Curry was also 25-26 when he made his big leap). Fwiw, Cavs fans had this same hope.

    With those two ships sailed, I feel like all their moves mostly amount to deck-chair-shuffling that I'm not sure gets them back to same level they were at.
     
    #1587 Sam Ray Not, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  38. Grin&MartyBarret

    Grin&MartyBarret Member SoSH Member

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    I understand where you're coming from, but just think there are too many assumptions built into your assessment.

    The most major of which is that IT will somehow be a non-factor. I think we were all beat to death with information about his injury during the trade, and there was a lot of it, but my major take away was not that IT was guaranteed to be gimpy, or to lose athleticism, but that there are just a ton of unknowns with this sort of injury. Some people come back fine, others take a while to recover, and some are never quite the same. I think you're right that this injury has a strong chance to be chronic/deteriorating, but I took that more to be a hindrance to IT's longterm health than his ability to play at a high level next season. Time will tell, I guess.

    To play devil's advocate, let's say IT is 90% of his 2017 self next season. That effectively replaces Kyrie. Is that not a number 2 guy? It takes a lot of assumptions (IT gimpy, Love having fewer plays run for him than Rose, etc) to get to Crowder as the Cavs number 2. And the flipside of all of that is if those assumptions prove wrong (IT is fully healthy, Love resembles his Minnesota playmakin' self) suddenly Jae Crowder is your #4.

    Also, and this is sort of only tangentially related, but Kyrie Irving had a higher usage rate than LeBron James last year, and top 10 usage rate in the league. How much more usage does he need to become Curry? Feels like a lot. That said, with a slight increase in usage, he could become. . .2017 Isaiah Thomas. Which is really good.

    All that said though, yeah, the Cavs are just deck-chair shuffling. Everybody but Golden State is. But I still think the Cavs have the highest ceiling (followed very closely by Houston) and could at least make Golden State work if everything broke right. Especially if one of the things that breaks is Kevin Durant's foot.
     
  39. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, my working assumption is that IT will be nowhere near the miraculous 2016-17 IT, which I think was at least somewhat a Brad Stevens creation to begin with, since it's such an outlier compared to the rest of his career. If can be that guy (or 90% of it), yeah, he's their clear #2 guy, though as you guys have experienced, his horrific D does offset a lot of his offensive prowess. I feel like the defensive liability is a qualitatively different level from that of Kyrie, who at least has the requisite size to guard Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Lillard et al. On a team that's somewhat undersized and defensively inept to begin with ... more questions than answers.

    As far as Kyrie developing into something resembling 2014-17 Curry — it's not just a question of greater usage but of a transformed role. Kerr's first job as Ws coach was to totally overhaul the offense (fun piece on that on ESPN yesterday) and the heart of that was taking Steph more off ball, allowing him to roam more freely through complex screens, split actions, etc., to exploit to his most elite skill (shooting, duh), while empowering the whole roster (Draymond in particular, but also Bogut, Andre, Shaun, West, et al.) to make plays. Running him off ball more also helped turn him into a much more complete player: he became a much better screener, rebounder, and defender under Kerr. Not saying Kyrie will reach Steph's level, but in the bits of preseason I've watched, I've already seen signs of that freer, easier, less ball-poundy, more complete Kyrie under Stevens (whose coaching principles I think share a ton with Kerr's). To wit: 10 assists, 0 turnovers, and 5 rebounds in 27 minutes last night, to go with the 16 pts on 7-11 fg. All while barely breaking a sweat. Dare I say "Stephortless"?

    As for your last sentence: c'mon, man, shhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
     
    #1589 Sam Ray Not, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  40. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    You mean the 2016/17 IT?
     
  41. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    D'oh yeah, sorry. Fixed.
     
  42. DavidTai

    DavidTai Member SoSH Member

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    I think even the 'qualitive' measures undersells just how brutal IT4 was - if they're actively -trying- to hide you on defense, as opposed to just throwing you out there and watching you get in the way of players... the metrics might be underestimating the effects of taking IT4 from a Boston D scheme to a Cleveland scheme. It feels like the kind of situation where you'd end up wrecking havoc on your already poor schemes trying to cover up for IT4. I think even if we see 90 percent of the offensive IT4, we'll see an even worse defensive IT4. I have no faith that Tyronn Lue can fix -that- defense, and even less so that IT4's D will 'be about the same as Cleveland Irving D'.
     
  43. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Cleveland is going to be a fascinating team to watch and even more so because even if Lue figures out a rotation that kinda, sorta makes everyone happy, he's got to do it again once IT comes back. Hope Lue is getting combat pay.

    As for Derrick Rose, I'm not sure he still thinks of himself as a superstar, but he's sure hoping to make people take notice so I'm not sure how he'll react if he isn't getting substantial minutes with the ball in his hand. From this article: “I get a chance to reintroduce myself back to the league. I get to bet on myself. That was one of the reasons I came here, I get to bet on myself. And I’m from Chicago, I’ve got that hustling side; it’s in me, man. Next time you’ve got to pay me, you’ve got to pay me double, so it’s fine with me.”

    Well they certainly can't pay him 1/2 . . . .
     
  44. dylanmarsh

    dylanmarsh Member SoSH Member

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    Zach Randolph was defensible, but this?

     
  45. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    Can't wait for the Mike Conley statue.
     
  46. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    5,571
    Retiring a number is just a publicity stunt; if the Grizzlies want to retire a guy who epitomized the style they want to market, they should do it. There are players who had worse careers than Tony Allen who have had their numbers retired. For Christ's sake, the Heat retired #13 in honor of Dan Marino.
     
  47. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    720
    Honestly curious now. There can't be too many. Tony Allen has a pretty unspectacular career.
     
  48. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,571
    Well for starters, Dan FUCKING Marino.

    Allen has made 6x All-Defense teams, which is pretty good considering he was basically a non-factor on offense (only Bruce Bowen has made more All-Defense teams while contributing so little on offense). His teams have always been very good while he was playing on them. I would argue he is among the best specialists players of the last 20 years. I do not think Allen is a Hall of Fame player, nor that he has ever should have made the All-Star team. However, he is far from the only role player to have his number retired. I'll excuse guys like KC Jones, who I think Allen was better than but considering he won like eight championships, gets a pass. Who really greatly remembers the playing careers of:

    - Bill Melchionni
    - Bingo Smith
    - Austin Carr
    - Brad Davis
    - Byron Beck
    - Tom Meschery
    - Junior Bridgeman
    - John McGlocklin
    - Brian Winters
    - Dick Van Arsdale
    - Sam Lacey
    - Johnny Moore
    - James Silas



    The Trailblazers retired EVERY number from their 76-77 title winning team; which means immortals like Dave Twardzik, Lary Steele, Bob Gross, Lloyd Neal and Geoff Petrie have their numbers retired.
     
  49. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    720
    Just seems to be an odd combination of not many seasons/games played for MEM, and not being all that good of a player. But whatever
     
  50. DannyDarwinism

    DannyDarwinism Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,936
    Hey, he's played in like a third of all games in Memphis history.

    It's mainly fan service for a fan favorite, but they never won a play-off game before he got there, and they've been to the playoffs every year since he arrived. He's arguably the best perimeter defender of his generation and he's the personification of the Grizzlies' "grit and grind" style. Plus he has a cool nickname.
     

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