2015 Tour de France (with race day spoilers)

ernieshore · Jul 15, 2015

In one of the books on cycling and doping I've read (I can't remember which -- maybe Walsh's book on Armstrong or "The Death of Marco Pantani"), the author wrote about the sudden rise of the Gewiss team in the mid 90s, especially their performance in the Fleche Wallone, when Ferrari was their trainer. Essentially, the author said when you see performances like that from a single team that stand out so much from the others, it should immediately raise your suspicion. Maybe it is their trainer, their doctors, or something else...but it could likely be something coming from within the team.

I immediately thought of that yesterday. Now, Sky has obviously proved itself as the top team over a few years, but it is hard to not think that something is up. And I say that as someone who thinks the sport has become cleaner in recent years.

fletcherpost · Jul 15, 2015

Mr Poon 14 said:
I wish I could accept Froom (and the rest of Sky) were just that much better today, but every time I've seen someone put up a performance that dominant... they were doping.

The sport has really screwed itself.

Thomas was talking about how he recovered and was actually stuck behind Van Garderen, and was just breezing along with Valverde. That climb cracked everyone except the Sky guys. I really hope they just all had good days, but like I said, I've seen it before, and we later found out those performances were not on the level.

Dunno if you know much about Dave Brailsford and his work with the GB cycling team. There's a documentary kicking about that covers their methods and their success; all built around the concept of marginal gains. The GB team won 70% of the gold medals at the London Olympics and that was kind of tthe high point in terms of the talent on the track and on the road. It was a natural move to go to Sky and attempt to win the Tour, i think the target was to do it in five years but they did in in three.

Froome; Wiggins; Hoy and all the other elite GB cyclist went through the same program. Whilst there was no one talking about doping in regards to the domination on the track, one other national team did complain that team GB had wheels that were too round. But some of the marginal gains stuff is pretty cool. Like teaching the cyclists how best to wash their hands so they don't get as much bacteria and making sure each cyclist has the correct pillow that they travel with and use in hotels or wherever they're staying. All those 1%s add up.

I believe, and of course i could be wrong but Braislford and his team took cycling to a new level with the manner of their approach and the talent at their disposal*...you do need both. Froome is kind of the tail end of it...Wiggins is in his late 30s now and Hoy retired.
.
*I don't just mean actual cyclists I mean, i mean the nutritionists the science research team the sports psychologists and so on and so on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33517897

Froome has been subjected to sustained scrutiny since his Tour win in 2013, with some sceptics using power data to justify their case against him.
The 30-year-old Briton has always insisted he is a clean rider.
"We think someone has hacked into training data and got Chris's files," said Team Sky boss Sir Dave Brailsford.
"We've got some legal guys on the case. I would never mention a name but ethically and morally if you are going to accuse someone of doping, then don't cheat."
I know road cycling has a terrible image in the eyes of many and if it does turn out that Froome's not clean I'll accept it and you can gie me tight.

Snedds · Jul 15, 2015

Gary Imlach on the ITV highlights program just said something about Froome planning on putting himself through independent testing at the end of the tour. And that he'll make all his files available, even historical ones, whatever can be found since he began cycling. This being a Froome initiative rather than Sky. Be interesting to see what comes from this.

Rovin Romine · Jul 15, 2015

fletcherpost said:
Dunno if you know much about Dave Brailsford and his work with the GB cycling team. There's a documentary kicking about that covers their methods and their success; all built around the concept of marginal gains. The GB team won 70% of the gold medals at the London Olympics and that was kind of tthe high point in terms of the talent on the track and on the road. It was a natural move to go to Sky and attempt to win the Tour, i think the target was to do it in five years but they did in in three.

Froome; Wiggins; Hoy and all the other elite GB cyclist went through the same program. Whilst there was no one talking about doping in regards to the domination on the track, one other national team did complain that team GB had wheels that were too round. But some of the marginal gains stuff is pretty cool. Like teaching the cyclists how best to wash their hands so they don't get as much bacteria and making sure each cyclist has the correct pillow that they travel with and use in hotels or wherever they're staying. All those 1%s add up.

I believe, and of course i could be wrong but Braislford and his team took cycling to a new level with the manner of their approach and the talent at their disposal*...you do need both. Froome is kind of the tail end of it...Wiggins is in his late 30s now and Hoy retired.
.
*I don't just mean actual cyclists I mean, i mean the nutritionists the science research team the sports psychologists and so on and so on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33517897

Froome has been subjected to sustained scrutiny since his Tour win in 2013, with some sceptics using power data to justify their case against him.
The 30-year-old Briton has always insisted he is a clean rider.
"We think someone has hacked into training data and got Chris's files," said Team Sky boss Sir Dave Brailsford.
"We've got some legal guys on the case. I would never mention a name but ethically and morally if you are going to accuse someone of doping, then don't cheat."
I know road cycling has a terrible image in the eyes of many and if it does turn out that Froome's not clean I'll accept it and you can gie me tight.

Eh. Armstrong used an oxygen tent, had a special diet, and had "heart." Oh, wait.

I really can't follow cycling anymore - it may be cleaner in recent years, or it may not. If there was a 100% non-doping regime (I doubt there is such a thing) I'd go back. But there's not and dominating performances are always going to be questioned from here on out.

I'd love to see something introduced to the major events that really allowed for strategy/tactics to shine. Something like a full day 14 (hour) stage over different terrain with one bike and no replacements/drafting allowed. I'd also make 'em carry their own water and/or stop to get it at a few designated locations. No team cars. No radio coordination. The only repairs are ones you can do with materials you take with you. That way things become strategic/tactical choices: you go for the super skinny tires at the risk of loosing time if you get a blowout; you carry more or less water; you make your own decisions about how and when to burn your power in the field, alone. (If it was possible I'd eliminate team riding altogether.)

fletcherpost · Jul 16, 2015

I take your point Ronnie, that they all use science technology. My point was and it's common knowledge that the GB cycling team took it to another level. Brailsford wasn't hired by Team Sky because he has a top squad of scientists who can enable dopers. I know that's an obvious statement. Froome and Wiggins came from the Team GB set up, have been the benficiaries of that advanced approach for over ten years. So he didn't come to team sky and start from scratch with respect to the talent and the approach.

And in terms of track cycyling most national teams are catching up to team GB and have adopted many of the methods Braislford employed. It made sense for him to move to the road, where he had - i believe - an edge on the competition. But, you are 100% justified in your suspicions due to the nature, image and history of the sport. Time will tell.

And yes Froome has said he'll be open and let himself be independently tested. It takes a team of people to enable someone to dope. If it turns out Froome isn't clean then one can assume the GB track team wasn't clean then we have a serious can of worms...and, well for my own selfish reasons I wouldn't mind if it turned out the entire GB track success was build on and around cyclists who were unclean...cos Chris Hoy's a unionist. Or is it possible Brailsford worked with clean cyclists on the track, but was fine going dirty to get success on the road?

There's three knights of the realm and one dame, who'd be stripped of their titles, not just their track titles...which would IMO be a bigger deal than the Armstrong debacle. That wouldn't bother me either.

Phil Plantier · Jul 19, 2015

After the horrible urine-throwing, the predictable messages from Froome and the team straight from the Lance playbook: the irresponsible media are the problem. Fans just want to watch racing, not deal with this speculation. We'll make all of our testing results available later. No one accuses the French/Spanish/Hispanic riders of doping.

The TV commentators are more than happy to back up this line of attack to reinforce their rights, and around we go again.

I've been finding myself fast-forwarding to the scenery shots. It seems like I can't stop watching, but I don't believe any rider achievement, just note the winners and losers and hope for a resolution to this some day.

ManhattanRedSox · Jul 21, 2015

I was in a spin class this past Sunday and on the screen were images of Hinault, Indurain, Merckx, Pantani, Armstrong, Riijs, Jalabert, Virenque, Contador, Ullrich, you get the idea. I get that Lance is a sociopathic bully - and for that he should be regarded as a world class a-hole. But why the selective persecution? If the 1990s cycling scene was the pinnacle of doping, these governing organizations can't seriously contend that none of the other tour 'dignitaries' shaking hands on the podium are above reproach? You cannot celebrate these guys and in the same breath strip Lance of his wins and continue to tar and feather the guy. Lance cheated. I get it. But the media cannot view that from a different angle than the do the rest of those guys.

Edit: and yes, I cannot believe that Thomas was able to get off the ground, much less finish the stage. So lucky.

therondc · Jul 21, 2015

More fuel on the fire today with Sky "releasing" Froome's power data for stage 10. They should just release the entire damn file instead of quoting the average numbers for the 41 min climb. Ross Tucker (@scienceofsport) does a better job of parsing all of this than anyone I've seen, and he isn't convinced. As he and others point out, if Froome's power numbers are accurate, somehow he still posted a faster time up that climb than a handful of other riders who put out more watts per kilogram than he did. So it appears as though either the power numbers are wrong for Froome, they are wrong for everyone else, he has a motor in his bike, or he had a weird selective tailwind that only impacted him and no one else.

Greg29fan · Jul 21, 2015

Orange Julia said:
That was a pretty hairy descent today, and I cannot believe that Geraint Thomas got back on his bike after hitting that telephone pole and didn't lose his place. I would love to be a fly on the bus wall for the convo he's gonna have with Warren Barguil, although Barguil tried to throw Teejay Van Garderen under the bus by blaming him. How Thomas wasn't more hurt--he didn't even have a scratch on him at the finish--is remarkable.

Barguil has been a weapon out there from day one - he caused the huge pileup that wiped out Cancellara and others in stage 3 (I think it was), although not completely responsible, was involved in the Tony Martin crash, and then had a wreck of his own that I never saw what the trigger was, but based on what I've seen from him before and after, he was probably not paying attention and touched wheels.

ernieshore · Jul 21, 2015

ManhattanRedSox said:
I was in a spin class this past Sunday and on the screen were images of Hinault, Indurain, Merckx, Pantani, Armstrong, Riijs, Jalabert, Virenque, Contador, Ullrich, you get the idea. I get that Lance is a sociopathic bully - and for that he should be regarded as a world class a-hole. But why the selective persecution? If the 1990s cycling scene was the pinnacle of doping, these governing organizations can't seriously contend that none of the other tour 'dignitaries' shaking hands on the podium are above reproach? You cannot celebrate these guys and in the same breath strip Lance of his wins and continue to tar and feather the guy. Lance cheated. I get it. But the media cannot view that from a different angle than the do the rest of those guys.

I think that's the big difference with Lance versus everyone else though. Cycling always had a "wink wink" acceptance of doping. Just don't talk about it too much and we will all go on. But Lance shouted how clean he was as loud as he could. Then, he viciously attacked every and anyone that questioned him, sued some of the media and won, paid off UCI, wrote books, won more Tours, and stood on the podium and pitied us that we didn't believe in miracles. All other riders denied their use, but not like he did. I think the different treatment he gets is understandable and deserved.

On another note - sounds like a nice spin class. I'm stuck with a boom box and the instructor's mix from his phone.

ManhattanRedSox · Jul 21, 2015

Everything you say is true, Ernie, but, the rest of those guys did not have the depth/breadth of media exposure that Lance had/has. I am not a Lance apologist - he is an ass. My point, if I have one, is mainly that the whistleblower lawsuit claiming he defrauded USPS (if so, then where are the lawsuits from the sponsors of the rest of these guys), and the incessant exclusions from other forms of racing/tour victories vacated - it just seems to create a persecution narrative, that I don't think, in the end, is going to keep him out of the media any time soon. Who really cares if the guys swims a Masters race, or does a triathlon? Part of that media personna raised the profile of cycling in this country, and did have a positive effect on fundraising for LiveStrong...

ManhattanRedSox · Jul 22, 2015

Wow, Van Garderen drops out. He was struggling these past few days and I was beginning to think it was illness

ernieshore · Jul 22, 2015

Wow - just watched some of this. He looked awful. Though I still haven't seen a definitive statement.

Spacemans Bong · Jul 23, 2015

ManhattanRedSox said:
Everything you say is true, Ernie, but, the rest of those guys did not have the depth/breadth of media exposure that Lance had/has. I am not a Lance apologist - he is an ass. My point, if I have one, is mainly that the whistleblower lawsuit claiming he defrauded USPS (if so, then where are the lawsuits from the sponsors of the rest of these guys), and the incessant exclusions from other forms of racing/tour victories vacated - it just seems to create a persecution narrative, that I don't think, in the end, is going to keep him out of the media any time soon. Who really cares if the guys swims a Masters race, or does a triathlon? Part of that media personna raised the profile of cycling in this country, and did have a positive effect on fundraising for LiveStrong...

Well, a lot of that is his own fault. He didn't just dope, he was sanctimonious about how he wasn't doping, he humiliated Greg LeMond and used Trek to threaten LeMond's business, he tried to ruin people's careers in order to keep them quiet. He was a racketeer in a cycling jersey.

I don't think that means everyone else in the peloton is getting a pass or that there's unanimous agreement in how Armstrong is being treated. Lots of people think either Armstrong should get his titles back or all the other proven dopers (namely Ullrich and Rijs) should lose theirs, lots of people are unsure whether Jalabert or Virenque should be welcome around the sport, lots of people smell a rat around Indurain and feel he just hasn't been caught yet.

But Armstrong is such a toxic asshole that nobody really wants to see him there even if they feel he should get his palmares back or whatnot.

PaulinMyrBch · Jul 24, 2015

This is pretty cool on Stage 19. Froome says fuck it and goes after Quintana by himself. I never really understood the partners on the climbs since there isn't much draft, but sounds like its a fairly unusual move.

twothousandone · Jul 24, 2015

ManhattanRedSox said:
Who really cares if the guys swims a Masters race, or does a triathlon?

Armstrong cares, and because of that, there's critical mass of people who want vengeance for the lives he actively tried to ruin. I also wish Besty would/could move on, but she's dedicated to stalking Armstrong -- and it's tough to blame her after the Oprah stuff. Emma O'Reilly and Tyler Hamilton seemed to have figured out to deal with it. It probably depends on where one stands on the forgiveness scale.

PaulinMyrBch said:
This is pretty cool on Stage 19. Froome says fuck it and goes after Quintana by himself. I never really understood the partners on the climbs since there isn't much draft, but sounds like its a fairly unusual move.

Agreed. I've always wondered if it's similar to "manufacturing a run" -- there are some times when it's a good thing, but it is generally overplayed. Nice to see Nibali get a stage win. Great stage in a disappointing Tour, for him.

PaulinMyrBch · Jul 25, 2015

It's on now. Quintana seeing what he's got. I doubt its 2:30, but its going to be an exciting last 5 miles.

PaulinMyrBch · Jul 27, 2015

Orange Julia said:
Yesterday's stage might have been one of the most nail biting of stages in a few years. Some of those spectators really needed the sharp shock of a taser though. . How is it that some of those people aren't getting fined? They are all on video, shouldn't be too hard top get out there and write some tickets.

That was a recipe for disaster. The last important stage, on the Alpe d'Huez, leader and second separated by less than 2 minutes, and 5000 nut jobs that can reach out and touch them for most of the last 5-10km. If the guy in second wasn't a fairly new rider like Quintana, but someone some crazed fan obsesses over, I can easily imagine someone doing something to Froome as he went by. I know most of them just want their 30 seconds to run with the riders, but even that comes with the possibility that someone could trip and cause a major pile up. Crazy. Something is going to happen eventually.

Spacemans Bong · Jul 27, 2015

Meh. Alpe d'Huez has been a party for 30+ years now, especially Dutch Corner, and nobody has ever done anything like that (or if they have, it was so long ago nobody really cares). If you think about all the unpopular winners, like LeMond beating Hinault in 1986, or Lance, or one of the 1998 guys, there had to have been literally dozens of opportunities each Tour for some jerk to have a pop at one of them and it has never happened.

PaulinMyrBch · Jul 27, 2015

I understand that. I was thinking it being the last stage made the situation a bit more dangerous. I'm not a TDF historian but don't recall that being the last stage before. Stakes were higher. It only takes one.

PaulinMyrBch · Jul 27, 2015

The two incidents I recall or have heard about are the person who caught the handle of a bag on Lance's handlebar and he went down and Eddie Merckx getting punched years ago . Both were on Stage 15 (after some checking), and while I always thought the Lance accident was inadvertent, after checking the video, I'm not so sure. Person reaches out and hooks him it appears (right at 1:14 on this video and slo mo later at 1:27).

Either way, shit happens and with that stuff on the mountain on Stage 20 the other day, I thought it was a recipe for disaster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRxGNttpaZA

Schnerres · Jul 27, 2015

Alpe d´Huez 99, like you said..that was Guerini from german team Telekom, where Riis and Ullrich were before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dBvJkqv0DM
Check from 4:50 on.
Imagine if they were closer to him and closer to the finish...he lost 15 seconds and his rhythm.

Greg29fan · Jul 27, 2015

PaulinMyrBch said:
That was a recipe for disaster. The last important stage, on the Alpe d'Huez, leader and second separated by less than 2 minutes, and 5000 nut jobs that can reach out and touch them for most of the last 5-10km. If the guy in second wasn't a fairly new rider like Quintana, but someone some crazed fan obsesses over, I can easily imagine someone doing something to Froome as he went by. I know most of them just want their 30 seconds to run with the riders, but even that comes with the possibility that someone could trip and cause a major pile up. Crazy. Something is going to happen eventually.

Pierre Rolland (who was riding behind Porte, Froome, and Valverde after he fell back from the leaders) said on Facebook that Froome was getting all kinds of beers and I assume other stuff thrown at him throughout the climb. That's not as serious as it could be but still over the line.

2015 Tour de France (with race day spoilers)

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