https://www.threads.net/@adamschefter/post/CzF0vTwsH9M/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Schefter reporting that Raiders fired HC Josh McDaniels and GM Dave Ziegler.
Schefter reporting that Raiders fired HC Josh McDaniels and GM Dave Ziegler.
Viva Lost Vegas: McDaniels fired
- Thread starter singaporesoxfan
- Start date
I like Josh a lot and think he's made some bad choices in choosing his two HC opportunities. I haven't followed him as an HC closely so others may say he sucked as an HC. Regardless, I hope he ends up back in NE at least as an OC because I think we've seen his value in that role over the past 15-plus years.
How often does a head coach get fired midseason by two different teams? Gotta think that's it for him as an HC, unless he wants to go to college.
And Jimmy G is probably playing the worst football of his career in 2023, a guy Josh hand selected to replace Carr and who he obviously had familiarity with.
A team with Jacobs, Adams, Meyers, Mayer, etc. shouldn’t be this putrid on offense.
After he turned down the indy job, I figure he'd wait until he could go someplace with a QB on whom he could count.
He did not.
He did not.
The only surprising aspect of this is that it’s happening this quickly with how bad/mediocre the Broncos and Chargers have been. Taking a job in the same division as the league’s best quarterback/coach/team combo was playing the game on hard mode in itself, and then consider that both other teams looked much better on paper than the Raiders and Carr to begin with, too. Felt like there was basically no chance this would work out, and I say that as someone who easily thought it was time for McDaniels to get a second chance.
He must have some real struggles as a manager. Obviously his teams' performance has not been great when he's been HC but both teams also seemed to really despise him. An unfortunate thread among the Belichick disciples (Judge, Patricia) that also affected Bill in Cleveland. On the bright side, his great grandkids will still be spending the Davis's money.
The only truly surprising aspect is Mark Davis is now paying two head coaches a wild amount of money to not coach his team for the next 5-6 years.
McDaniels is a bad coach that made terrible game management decisions and couldn’t put his best players in a position to succeed.
A move like this in the middle of the season clearly means he had lost the team. This isn’t about salvaging this season. It’s about salvaging the following seasons.
A big part of the Patriot Way is how demanding drill sergeant Belichick is of players. Practicing in pads, etc. We’ve all heard the endless stories from disgruntled former players that playing for the Patriots isn’t “fun” and that it’s not for everyone. The coaching tree all having the same issues elsewhere (losing the locker room) probably isn’t a coincidence. They try to wear the hoodie and run their teams like Bill does, but they don’t have the credibility or management skills to pull it off.
Let's be honest, the Belicheck coaching tree, including Bill himself, has had very little success without Tom Brady.
Who's been the most successful off his tree? O'Brien?
Literally beating this drum for years. His offense is stagnant and predictable. He has almost no feel for the game and after this long, it’s really saying something. If you can’t utilize a guy like Davante Adams you need to rethink some career choices. I really don’t want him back here.
I will always get a kick out of him building the “What could have been” Patriots on the West Coast.
Yeah exactly. Bill has players on his rosters that have bought into his hardass coaching style because those players have won something with him. That is I believe why Belichick-tree guys always fill their rosters with ex-Patriots, but it doesn’t seem to take.
I like Josh as an OC, he can make something out of nothing. It’s kind of surprising watching the Raiders be so… uncreative on offense. When Brady with Josh had bad talent they would run a few gadget plays a game and they’d work.
Josh will always have that SB victory with Denver over the Patriots. And championships are forever.
Who are we comparing him to and to what end result? Holmgren? Walsh? Reid?
If it’s about building a program Nick Saban has a ton of championships but at the college level.
Too early to tell on how Daboll nets out or where Flores’ career goes. Do we count Vrabel?
Plenty of his guys have had long successful careers with impact if not as head coaches.
But leading a sustainable program is hard particularly at the NFL level where the leash is short.
BB’s brand of hard-nosed and disciplined complementary football may have an expiry date in the modern electric offense era where the Shananan and McVay trees are shining now.
If there has been a gap it’s not anticipating this era and building up the talent base and the creativity to compete.
Too much brain drain and not enough recruiting of progressive thinking to evolve the product.
But it’s unfair to credit his run solely to his QB. Lots of talent flowed through the building over the years. And his style has undeniably worked until recently.
Is Saban a "Bill guy"? I don't see him that way. He was hired by Bill in Cleveland, sure, but he had a 20 year career coaching in college to that point. I don't think we can equate him with the McDaniels/Flores/Patricia/Manginis of the world.
There was an episode of the "I am Athlete" podcast (S2E24) where I was struck by how quickly Ocho and Taylor shot down Marshall when the latter tried to claim he had played in a "Patriot Way" team under McDaniels in Denver. Fred had a pretty firm "No You Didn't" reaction. I think the hardass thing gets a lot of play, and it certainly seems to be the thing McDaniels and Patricia reached for. But there's "more" to Bill's teams and it's not just banners. After a player retires we frequently get "yeah he's not easy to play for, but" stories and that "but" isn't usually about wins. It's usually about Bill being a guru, a bill being a mentor, or even Bill being a friend.
His record is what it is, and combined with his stint in Denver, he certainly doesn’t seem like a guy with a great HC skill set. But I would also note that he took the worst job in the league with the Raiders. Davis is an utter and complete buffoon, and the organization is on about a 20 year run of dysfunction. Dating back to when Al didn’t have the sense to realize the party was over for him. I think almost anyone will struggle to succeed there, unless the team is sold. That said, Josh is almost certainly not getting another NFL HC offer anytime soon, likely never again. I could see a Lane Kiffin type second act in CFB maybe, but it’s strictly OC/position coach in the NFL for him going forward.
Weird. I was told that all you needed to succeed in the NFL today was skill players.
I will always believe that had Brady not turned the 7-5 Bucs around to win the 2020 SB that he would’ve engineered Arians’ firing and Josh’s hire in Tampa. Instead, he was again given the keys to the kingdom in LV, which seemed doomed from the start.
He was his DC in Cleveland then got hired by MSU, thus beginning his college career. Not sure how he can’t be.
Man, you really hate BB to make this mocking post about a head coach who has had no success in the league.
Why fire them AFTER the trade deadline? And Davis is not NFL owner rich. He owes 120-140-ish (I think?) million to Gruden and McDaniel. The next coach will not be a marquee name.
Maybe that's a good thing for LV. Hiring marquee names that can't coach hasn't worked out too well.
Saban was Toledo's head coach the year before he went to Cleveland and was assistant for many years including a 2 year stint in the NFL with the Oilers. Wonder what would have happened if they had gone with Brees.
Is the bolded true? I haven't followed them closely enough to know. Organization certainly seems dysfunctional but I know there are posters that have spoke highly about him in the past.
Thus beggining his college career? He had been a positional coach in college (and the NFL!) since 1973. He had already been the head coach of Toledo by the time Bill hired him even.
Maybe a little harsh, but I think a few of his decisions, top of the list being the absurd contract he gave Gruden, have been horrendous. Being the leader of a seriously dysfunctional organization probably speaks for itself without the pejoratives, I’ll concede that.
I also think the CBA - namely limits to padded practices and general restrictions to physicality in preparation - has limited the effectiveness of "drill sargeant"-ness in a coach. Bill notoriously keeps things under wraps and his management is on a "need to know" basis. That is why I don't really believe in preparing an heir apparent in New England. If Jerod Mayo, to name a likely successor, does well it will likely be on his own merits and not being in the Belichick coaching tree. But based on how the Patriots rolled out the announcement of the Mayo extension, perhaps he's getting a better peek under the curtain, who knows.
I think we need to account for a couple of things before evaluating Josh McDaniels' coaching ability:
1. In Denver he had Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow as his quarterbacks. In Vegas he had Derek Carr as his QB for his first season, then Jimmy G in his second. Comparing past performances between Carr and Garoppolo, Jimmy G was an upgrade, except this year his numbers have cratered and is now worse than Mac Jones.
2. McDaniels uses the Erhardt-Perkins offense. That takes time to learn and operate effectively. Most teams and players are more familiar with the West Coast offense, so it can be difficult for players to adjust to a different offensive scheme. The Titans use the West Coast scheme, despite Mike Vrabel coming out of Belichick's system.
Maybe McDaniels does ride harder on his players, but most likely Mark Davis just was too impatient to wait to see his GM and coach develop a successful team, so off with their heads!
1. In Denver he had Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow as his quarterbacks. In Vegas he had Derek Carr as his QB for his first season, then Jimmy G in his second. Comparing past performances between Carr and Garoppolo, Jimmy G was an upgrade, except this year his numbers have cratered and is now worse than Mac Jones.
2. McDaniels uses the Erhardt-Perkins offense. That takes time to learn and operate effectively. Most teams and players are more familiar with the West Coast offense, so it can be difficult for players to adjust to a different offensive scheme. The Titans use the West Coast scheme, despite Mike Vrabel coming out of Belichick's system.
Maybe McDaniels does ride harder on his players, but most likely Mark Davis just was too impatient to wait to see his GM and coach develop a successful team, so off with their heads!
Jimmy clearly seems to be physically broken. He can only throw to the middle of the field now, not to the sidelines. He missed a wide open Adams for a sure-fire TD on Monday night and that seems to have been the final straw.
Derek Carr is never going to win anything in this league and moving on from him was the right move. The problem is that Jimmy is broken and even worse.
One possiblity to consider: the Patriots "secret sauce" is to a large degree that BB (and Ernie?) are the greatest game planners in the history of the league and that doesn't translate to assistants going to the next team.
You can bring the system, the terminology, the mindset but if you don't have BB setting the game plan it doesn't work any better than anyone else's system, terminology, or mindset. And certainly, having TB to execute it on offense is critical as well--though he doesn't help the defense, and BB has a Hall of Fame track record there too separate from TB.
Increasingly, that's what I'm coming to feel is the case...this isn't "Moneyball" with a better approach that works elsewhere too, this is about one genius.
You can bring the system, the terminology, the mindset but if you don't have BB setting the game plan it doesn't work any better than anyone else's system, terminology, or mindset. And certainly, having TB to execute it on offense is critical as well--though he doesn't help the defense, and BB has a Hall of Fame track record there too separate from TB.
Increasingly, that's what I'm coming to feel is the case...this isn't "Moneyball" with a better approach that works elsewhere too, this is about one genius.
Also it makes no damn sense to fire the GM and HC after the trade deadline. Was there a conflict in the best way to approach it? Did the GM want to add players and Davis wanted to sell?
Pretty odd timing on the firing, wonder what is going on behind the scenes. At 3-5 that is about the record you would expect for LV at this point. I guess being blown out by the Bears could have escalated this. Also surprised to fire the GM right after the deadline, I'm guessing Davante is pretty influential here, seems he was fed up with Josh et all.
Ironically Bisacchia, not a marquee name, probably should have been kept on as HC after filling the interim role post-Gruden.
Oh, but he did help the defense a whole lot, though. It's why the 2017 Patriots were 5th in points allowed while ranking 30th in defensive DVOA and 29th in defensive EPA/Play, for instance. Having an offense that allows you to play from a lead consistently, never turns the ball over and routinely drives deep into opponent territory is HUGE for a defense. Of course, what you're saying is true: Bill is a defensive mastermind and in that field he has a ton of accomplishments that have nothing to do with Brady.
Maybe had to do with not trading Adams who wanted to get moved. Maybe they had a good/great offer and passed? That would mean Davis was the lucid person in this triangle; seeing this team as a go nowhere bunch and also willing to part with a marquee name putting butts in the seats.
View: https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/status/1719381766589296842
Put me in the side of not wanting anything to do with Josh back as an OC on NE. Raider players (probably Davante) were ripping his offense as being old and predictable in the press just last week. The NFL has passed the McDaniels offense by. Maybe there's some sort of offensive development role for him, but as a play caller? Hard pass.
Technically at 3-4 they were in the mix, but their performance Monday was wretched. Made me pine for the 2023 Patriots offense, despite the Raiders having better talent at almost every skill position (Hunter Henry might be better right now than Michael Mayer) including an elite WR and RB. I don't think 1 bad performance got Josh fired but it put an exclamation point on why he needed to be fired.
I get that, and certainly team success can be driven by outstanding offense (as in seasons you note) and the offense being effective can help the defense (limiting willingness of a team trailing to use running game; forcing teams to be aggressive to keep up on the score, etc.) But yes---my primary point was BB has a track record separate from Brady which itself demonstrates it is not "all Brady" no matter how much one wants to allocate Brady for Pat success
Who's tree is Belichick part of then?
This is a dumb discussion regardless and seems to be in the recent vein of this board discrediting Belichick for such things as not winning the Super Bowl good enough.
McDaniels scapegoated Carr for the teams offensive woes last year and ran him out of town so that he could bring in his handpicked QB, Jimmy G.
The fact that Jimmy looks beyond cooked and the offense can’t score more than 19 points is enough to lose his job. Not to mention that the players seem to despise him.
The fact that Jimmy looks beyond cooked and the offense can’t score more than 19 points is enough to lose his job. Not to mention that the players seem to despise him.
Bill only coached for 3 seasons as an assistant elsewhere before being hired by the Giants, and then he spent 12 years there. His formative years as a coach in the NFL were under Parcells, he went from assistant coach to positional coach to DC to eventual HC candidate in NY, so he's a Parcells tree guy. Aside from his decade+ as an assistant, Saban had been a DC in college, a HC in college and a positional coach in the NFL before he ever got the Browns DC job. I'd argue that the mere fact that he was hired by Bill to be a DC is proof that he was an established coach by that time.
This is not a post at you, just more a general confusion about why these guys are committed to a system that is so difficult to learn for many players in the league. BB always talks about putting players in the best position to succeed and focusing on what they can do rather than what they can't, yet for years (decades?) we've heard about Erhardt-Perkins being a "step above" other systems in terms of complexity. As if it somehow gives BB, the Patriots, McDaniels, etc. a pass for the fact the offense can often suck.
It just seems like a silly choice to make, particularly when some of the best athletes are coming out of colleges that simplify offense as much as possible. What's the point? What's the payoff? If it's so good, why isn't it taking the league by storm? I don't get it.