All things considered, Horford is easily the 5th best player on the team. In a vacuum, it still might be Horford but I think it's much more debatable, with possibly DS taking Horford over.
Horford might be the 5th best player, overall, but I believe in most situations - it seems like Ime doesn't think having him as the 5th player on the floor is the best lineup. The other challenge is that I certainly hope we don't see Horford trying to play 40+ minutes in the playoffs.All things considered, Horford is easily the 5th best player on the team. In a vacuum, it still might be Horford but I think it's much more debatable, with possibly DS taking Horford over.
+1 good post. There are 2, maybe even 3 seasons.You don't get a star for that package, but you get a starting caliber player (think Harrison Barnes or Jerami Grant).
I feel like the NBA is really like two different seasons, almost requiring two different approaches to building a team. In the playoffs, the starters can play 40 minutes plus - so you really don't need guys 9 and 10 for sure, and maybe not really #8. The regular season, that's a different story - as there are a lot of games and a lot of injuries.
Thinking about the Celtics specifically, the question is - what's our best 5?
Rob Williams
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
The question is, who is that 5th guy? Right now, we have Horford, Grant, Richardson, and possibly Schroeder as our 5th guy. If you could package two of those to get a better player - you become a better playoff team, I think.
I don't agree - I think Ime has the guts to go with whatever lineup he thinks is best to start a gameHorford might be the 5th best player, overall, but I believe in most situations - it seems like Ime doesn't think having him as the 5th player on the floor is the best lineup. The other challenge is that I certainly hope we don't see Horford trying to play 40+ minutes in the playoffs.
I can agree with this, but consideration needs to be given to the fact that Horford buys into his role and the Celtics organization as a wholeIn my opinion, upgrading from Horford to a better PF who can play 40 minutes+ and space the floor, or upgrading with a PG who is switchable and can also space the floor with some outside shooting (with Tatum taking the 4) would be a much better playoff team.
Same here.I would have really liked to see what that 2020 team could have done in the playoffs with a healthy Hayward. Would have been very fun to watch.
Yes, this.You don't get a star for that package, but you get a starting caliber player (think Harrison Barnes or Jerami Grant).
I feel like the NBA is really like two different seasons, almost requiring two different approaches to building a team. In the playoffs, the starters can play 40 minutes plus - so you really don't need guys 9 and 10 for sure, and maybe not really #8. The regular season, that's a different story - as there are a lot of games and a lot of injuries.
Thinking about the Celtics specifically, the question is - what's our best 5?
Rob Williams
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
The question is, who is that 5th guy? Right now, we have Horford, Grant, Richardson, and possibly Schroeder as our 5th guy. If you could package two of those to get a better player - you become a better playoff team, I think.
I like Al as much as the next guy. BUT as soon as more money was flashed in front of him, he took it (& that's perfectly fine) from the Celtics nemesisI can agree with this, but consideration needs to be given to the fact that Horford buys into his role and the Celtics organization as a whole
Same here.
I would agree, except that you still have the same ball-handling concerns if you trade for someone like Collins, which will lead to the same crunch-time offense issues.Yes, this.
I love Grant, but he's in the "if you can upgrade, do it" category with pretty much everyone else.
By picks I assume you are talking about the maximum number of possible #1s and pick swaps? Plus a young player or two. While Horford has played well, those 2 are the definition of flotsam/cap filler in a deal, especially with a team who is not Championship driven in 2022. Washington has a bunch of centers already,, and Schroder would be a buyout candidate (If Wash were to trade Beal, might as well go full tank)If Simmons goes for Harden, could Washington be persuaded to move a down year Beal for Al/Schroder/picks? I don’t think he’s a 1, but he can be a 2, and maybe he could be convinced to play defense by Tatum and Udoka.
I realize I'm late to the party but I just looked up all the guards with cap numbers between 15-25 mill and basically you're suggesting we look at the following list to unlock the C's. Brogdon, Conley, Van Vleet, Dragic, Lonzo, Bledsoe, Scary Terry (who I'd love to see back in Green), Rubio, Dinwiddie, Fultz (interesting from a story standpoint), Dejounte Murray and Derrick White. I don't know which of them meet the OK-defense/good-offense ball handler metric because I don't watch a ton of NBA other than the C's but I'd love to know who from that list would be "worth" making a deal for understanding that some teams (the Bulls and Lonzo and sadly Charlotte and Terry probably say no because they're in the fight.)I would agree, except that you still have the same ball-handling concerns if you trade for someone like Collins, which will lead to the same crunch-time offense issues.
Ok-defense/good-offense ball-handlers can be found in the $15-25MM range, and getting one would unlock everything for the Celtics imo. You can move Tatum to the 4, Smart to the 2, stagger things to let Smart be the PG on bench units, upgrade shooting, etc.
Getting a talent upgrade at the 4 is fine, but it means you probably have to trade Smart to make everything else work, and he's playing out of his mind right now in a way that looks sustainable (based on defense/connecting the offense, rather than hot 3PT shooting). Just feels harder to make all the pieces work, but if Collins is available, maybe it's worth making that effort.
There's also guys who will become RFAs like Sexton.I realize I'm late to the party but I just looked up all the guards with cap numbers between 15-25 mill and basically you're suggesting we look at the following list to unlock the C's. Brogdon, Conley, Van Vleet, Dragic, Lonzo, Bledsoe, Scary Terry (who I'd love to see back in Green), Rubio, Dinwiddie, Fultz (interesting from a story standpoint), Dejounte Murray and Derrick White. I don't know which of them meet the OK-defense/good-offense ball handler metric because I don't watch a ton of NBA other than the C's but I'd love to know who from that list would be "worth" making a deal for understanding that some teams (the Bulls and Lonzo and sadly Charlotte and Terry probably say no because they're in the fight.)
Don't think PBS will be able to get it done by Thursday. BUT that's a good list for Brad to start with. Pacers may move Brogdon in the offseason, have to look into his medicals, can't imagine he would get a ransom now.I realize I'm late to the party but I just looked up all the guards with cap numbers between 15-25 mill and basically you're suggesting we look at the following list to unlock the C's. Brogdon, Conley, Van Vleet, Dragic, Lonzo, Bledsoe, Scary Terry (who I'd love to see back in Green), Rubio, Dinwiddie, Fultz (interesting from a story standpoint), Dejounte Murray and Derrick White. I don't know which of them meet the OK-defense/good-offense ball handler metric because I don't watch a ton of NBA other than the C's but I'd love to know who from that list would be "worth" making a deal for understanding that some teams (the Bulls and Lonzo and sadly Charlotte and Terry probably say no because they're in the fight.)
Guess they are done with the Semi experience?Weiss, in Athletic, today reported Celts offered Schroder for Divencenzo. Bucks responded by asking for Granite. Teams still talking.
That makes sense in all directions---Schroder would help Bucks a bit, but Divencenzo is pretty much their only chip. Grant is better than Divencenzo, so little reason to do that.
Why should we like Divencenzo? (I'm 100% asking out of ignorance, not to cast aspersions). He's a career 34% shooting SG from three who seems to have been terrible this year.Weiss, in Athletic, today reported Celts offered Schroder for Divencenzo. Bucks responded by asking for Granite. Teams still talking.
That makes sense in all directions---Schroder would help Bucks a bit, but Divencenzo is pretty much their only chip. Grant is better than Divencenzo, so little reason to do that.
Upside before he was injured seemed to be a very very good 3 and D guy. Wracked up a lot of steals, was hitting more and more 3's on increasing volume. He's been really bad in limited time since coming back, but still only 25.Why should we like Divencenzo? (I'm 100% asking out of ignorance, not to cast aspersions). He's a career 34% shooting SG from three who seems to have been terrible this year.
Last season DiVincenzo posted career bests in points, rebounds, assists, minutes, and 3-point percentage as he played the most prominent role in his career.Why should we like Divencenzo? (I'm 100% asking out of ignorance, not to cast aspersions). He's a career 34% shooting SG from three who seems to have been terrible this year.
The way i read it is they want Grant as a sweetener in the deal. Not that they are willing to trade DD for grant.Guess they are done with the Semi experience?
if you had even hinted of a Grant Williams for DiVencenzo swap this summer, you'd have been laughed off this board. Now DD plays 16 games this season and he can't get Granite
I really like DD as a buy LOW candidate
agreed. PLUS he's not the greatest fit since DD looks a lot like JRich, Smart and even Langford.Wait, DS and GW for DD? Not a chance. I like him but not that much.
Al Horford has started every single game he has played in this season. It could be that Ime thought the matchups favored Al Horford in every single one of those 46 games - but we have no evidence that Ime would start someone else over Horford if the matchups favored it.I don't agree - I think Ime has the guts to go with whatever lineup he thinks is best to start a game
I’d probably do DS/Nesmith though but doubt MIL goes for that.agreed. PLUS he's not the greatest fit since DD looks a lot like JRich, Smart and even Langford.
ballhandler/sWing, what Milwaukee wants, are Celtic needs also
maybe get a 3rd team involved (rebuilder) that can give Nesmith minutes and let him burn off his nervous energyI’d probably do DS/Nesmith though but doubt MIL goes for that.
Weiss reported it differently, no idea who is right. But there's little chance Celtics would deal both for Divencenzo, I imagine. I doubt they'd do Grant straight-up though that at least one could see differently. I'm not the biggest Grant guy (upside very limited) but he's become a very useful and cost-controlled role player so swapping him for a RFA who is playing worse this year is not all that clear a win. Milwaukee may have asked for that but I doubt it was really discussed seriously.The way i read it is they want Grant as a sweetener in the deal. Not that they are willing to trade DD for grant.
But then you need to find a team that is willing to give up value for Nemith, and maybe there is someone willing to give up a future #2 in a deal for nesmith, but I don't imagine that is what Mil would be looking for as a sweetenermaybe get a 3rd team involved (rebuilder) that can give Nesmith minutes and let him burn off his nervous energy
I like the move (without Grant), but taking out his worst season and leaving his arguable outlier 38% year isn't really telling you anything. There isn't enough evidence that he can shoot given 3 of his 4 seasons show a bad 3pt shooter. Last year may well be his "Marcus shot 36 percent that one year" season.Just to amplify @benhogan's point above, his career 3 point percentage is hurt by his poor performance in his rookie season. Take that out, which is perfectly legit, he was a career 36% shooter from 3 entering this season and on an upward arc. He's having a bad season but only has all of 70 attempts.
Seems like a perfect low risk flier to take if the cost is Dennis Schroeder. Agree that adding Grant to the mix is less appealing.
I was thinking 3rd team/rebuilder had a vet they'd like to move (ie Nwaba from Houston, but haven't given it much thought)But then you need to find a team that is willing to give up value for Nemith, and maybe there is someone willing to give up a future #2 in a deal for nesmith, but I don't imagine that is what Mil would be looking for as a sweetener
According to the NBA trade machine, Richardson/Horford for Larry Fitzgerald works.rumor of Laker interest in JRich
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/265716/Lakers-Interested-In-Trade-For-Josh-Richardson
If all it takes is a Josh making 12 million dollars signed through next season and some draft compensation, I hope Brad at least kicked the tires on Richardson for CJ here.
The Lakers have offered Talen Horton-Tucker, Kendrick Nunn and a draft pick in trades for several sub-All-Star players. Thus far, they've had no traction in finding a deal with that package.rumor of Laker interest in JRich
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/265716/Lakers-Interested-In-Trade-For-Josh-Richardson
My take is that McCollum was never going to be a target for Boston for a variety of reasons. His defense is terrible, he is older, has had some durability issues the past few seasons and gets paid a lot of money for a very narrow skillset.If all it takes is a Josh making 12 million dollars signed through next season and some draft compensation, I hope Brad at least kicked the tires on Richardson for CJ here.
What I'm saying is the Portland fire sale is real and people are getting good players and not giving up much.
If they could do this deal without including Grant, DiVincenzo is exactly the kind of shooter the Celtics need to addWeiss, in Athletic, today reported Celts offered Schroder for Divencenzo. Bucks responded by asking for Granite. Teams still talking.
That makes sense in all directions---Schroder would help Bucks a bit, but Divencenzo is pretty much their only chip. Grant is better than Divencenzo, so little reason to do that.
But all the Lakers fans and NBA media told me he was going to be a superstar?? Remember how good he was in preseason that one time??The Lakers offer is interesting in that you could talk yourself into the 1st being useful if unprotected (assuming it's the 1st), THT is basically if Romeo made 3/30 and was a lot worse on D.
Edit- oh and THT is a worse shooter than Romeo.
I'd describe it this way: if you get McCollum he's your 'third star' and you're counting on him as a ballhandler. Even if you get him for (say) just dumping Horford's salary and nothign else do you think Tatum/Brown/McCollum/TL/Smart with Richardson/Grant/Romeo/fungible big is a contender? If not, you shouldn't take McCollum because his value is only going down. And while that's a good and fun lineup, it's not there imoMy take is that McCollum was never going to be a target for Boston for a variety of reasons. His defense is terrible, he is older, has had some durability issues the past few seasons and gets paid a lot of money for a very narrow skillset.
A lot of these deals look like fire sale trades but they are actually fair when you consider the entire package including the financial relief. The Celtics can big game hunt because while their young players are relatively limited, they still have draft picks to deal. There is still a chance though nobody should hold their breath. Except maybe Schroder.
Huh? He has 1 season of not being a bad shooter, he's definitely NOT the kind of shooter the Celtics need, they need a reliable shooter.If they could do this deal without including Grant, DiVincenzo is exactly the kind of shooter the Celtics need to add
If DD is free then sure sign me up to return to pre-injury form. I’ve never been a fan of his game up until last year. He makes a ton of mistakes breaking out of the offensive set prematurely for a non-elite scorer. Having said that, the game was finally slowing down for him last year pre-injury so he was able to finish shots but he’s now back to taking bad shots and playing from a step behind as he had done his first few years in the league. So for free as a flier? Sure. I wouldn’t give up anything of value for him though. Nesmith/Pritchard and a 2nd?Guess they are done with the Semi experience?
if you had even hinted of a Grant Williams for DiVencenzo swap this summer, you'd have been laughed off this board. Now DD plays 16 games this season and he can't get Granite
I really like DD as a buy LOW candidate
That's my read as well---last year's Divencenzo is indeed a good shooter and secondary creator and would help. But that guy hasn't been seen before or sense and thus it's a gamble.If DD is free then sure sign me up to return to pre-injury form. I’ve never been a fan of his game up until last year. He makes a ton of mistakes breaking out of the offensive set prematurely for a non-elite scorer. Having said that, the game was finally slowing down for him last year pre-injury so he was able to finish shots but he’s now back to taking bad shots and playing from a step behind as he had done his first few years in the league. So for free as a flier? Sure. I wouldn’t give up anything of value for him though. Nesmith/Pritchard and a 2nd?
You assume correctly. The C's only chance of acquiring a third star is lobbing a host of picks and swaps with expiring (Schroder) and buyout (Horford) contracts. I am wondering if Washington's backsliding and Beal's disappointing season combined with fears of him leaving for nothing or staying for a supermax might lead them to entertain a move now.By picks I assume you are talking about the maximum number of possible #1s and pick swaps? Plus a young player or two. While Horford has played well, those 2 are the definition of flotsam/cap filler in a deal, especially with a team who is not Championship driven in 2022. Washington has a bunch of centers already,, and Schroder would be a buyout candidate (If Wash were to trade Beal, might as well go full tank)
Grant Williams has played well.... he's not more than the Blazers got for Powell, he's not even close. Also... Powell makes a ton of money, DvD makes basically none.Some of these proposed Celtic deals make no sense. The Bucks want more for Donte than the Blazers got for Powell. Beasley for more than JRich? I wouldn't even make that trade one for one.
Agreed. Given what we know of Udoka's focus on defense, its hard to see him wanting a player like McCollum. In the Celtics scheme, he may create more problems than he solves.I'd describe it this way: if you get McCollum he's your 'third star' and you're counting on him as a ballhandler. Even if you get him for (say) just dumping Horford's salary and nothign else do you think Tatum/Brown/McCollum/TL/Smart with Richardson/Grant/Romeo/fungible big is a contender? If not, you shouldn't take McCollum because his value is only going down. And while that's a good and fun lineup, it's not there imo