Kemba is also a much better player at this point than Al.They do both have negative value. Kemba is owed 20 million extra over the next two years though. Seems like pretty easily calculus that Kemba has more negative value than Al
Kemba is also a much better player at this point than Al.They do both have negative value. Kemba is owed 20 million extra over the next two years though. Seems like pretty easily calculus that Kemba has more negative value than Al
Right, he'd have to be healthy for all of 21/22 playing at an all star level to be signed for 3-4 years, aka playing every game. That includes back to backs. As is, he'll be lucky to get Lou Williams money.Hayward was always going to opt-out for a long-term guaranteed deal from Boston or elsewhere. I don’t specifically recall Horfords case off top of my head. Who in there right mind would give 31-yr old Kemba long-term guaranteed money with a degenerative knee condition who can’t play B2B nights? His market by then, likely following a 5th surgery, could easily be Isaiah post-hip surgery......no agent is going to walk away from $37m (or $42m if traded).
He may be a slightly better player, but I can't get behind the "much better" descriptorKemba is also a much better player at this point than Al.
Because not all negative values are equal. The question is how underwater is the contract. If the player were a FA in a normal free agency market, what would he sign for? The delta between that number (his properly paid #) and the actual contract is what your paying to acquiring team in assets.Why does a 34 year old Al Horford have more trade value than KW? Given their contracts and age, they both have negative trade value around the league and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
There might be a team or two where I would take TT over Horford, but I'm almost always taking Big Al over TT if everything else is equal. This is especially true for this Celtics team. He would actually stretch the floor at the 5 and the team's passing wouldn't miss a beat with either Al or TL on the court. I'm not sure how well they would play alongside each other. That may not be much of an issue if TL is only going to play 25 minutes a night though.Because not all negative values are equal. The question is how underwater is the contract. If the player were a FA in a normal free agency market, what would he sign for? The delta between that number (his properly paid #) and the actual contract is what your paying to acquiring team in assets.
At the time of the trade Horford was due 27.5, 27 and 14.5. Though he was a poor fit in Philly, his actual production was comparable to his last year in Boston. In OKC while playing few minutes his numbers have improved. What do you think Horford would get on the market this year? Could he get the same contract that Danny gave to TT? While Horford was a bad fit in Philly, there are plenty of teams who could still use a savvy, low usage, big with some stretch to his game. They are not going to pay 27M for it, but Al could still play meaningful minutes on a winning team.
Kemba's FG and 3 percentage are down 27% and 30% from last year (and from most of his prime). He has a degenerative knee condition. The possibility of him no longer being able to contribute at all to winning basketball in the final year of that deal (while collecting 37M is a real one.
It's also worth remembering that Horford is not the only comp of a salary dump.
Well first of all, I wasn't reading "more trade value" to mean "less negative value," but I'm pretty sure I understand that a lower negative number is greater than a higher negative number. At least my 10 year old thinks I do when I help him with math homework.Because not all negative values are equal. The question is how underwater is the contract. If the player were a FA in a normal free agency market, what would he sign for? The delta between that number (his properly paid #) and the actual contract is what your paying to acquiring team in assets.
At the time of the trade Horford was due 27.5, 27 and 14.5. Though he was a poor fit in Philly, his actual production was comparable to his last year in Boston. In OKC while playing few minutes his numbers have improved. What do you think Horford would get on the market this year? Could he get the same contract that Danny gave to TT? While Horford was a bad fit in Philly, there are plenty of teams who could still use a savvy, low usage, big with some stretch to his game. They are not going to pay 27M for it, but Al could still play meaningful minutes on a winning team.
Kemba's FG and 3 percentage are down 27% and 30% from last year (and from most of his prime). He has a degenerative knee condition. The possibility of him no longer being able to contribute at all to winning basketball in the final year of that deal (while collecting 37M is a real one.
It's also worth remembering that Horford is not the only comp of a salary dump.
I'm sure my memory isn't as good as yours, but IIRC, the last time we saw Al, he was having huge problems playing defense against the Cs. Al isn't going out and guarding smaller people on the perimetr anymore.I also don't think Al would be unplayable in the post season. I'm assuming Kemba will be.
People shouldn’t be surprised that Romeo can take and make perimeter shots. He isn’t some type of brick layer that the numbers show. The game before tearing, and playing through, thumb ligaments in his shooting hand at Indiana he was coming off a 22-pt game, 2-5 threes and 8-9 from the line prior to playing with his right thumb heavily bandaged the remainder of the year. Then he had wrist surgery as a professional. Combining his offense with his floor game it hurts my head when I continue reading “Langford/Nesmith” as if they are one in the same hoping one pans out. Langford is already an NBA rotation player with plenty of upside......the other is a lost rookie without the floor game or presence of Romeo.And just to get back to the thread topic, a tweet from (I believe this is correct) a writer who covers the Cs for Forbes:
Romeo Langford on his shooting: "I've just been working on it since day one with the Celtics. I put in so much time, effort, hours, and now I just shoot. It comes naturally. I feel like I'm getting back to my old self -- back in HS when I was shooting really good." View: https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1380549388284616720
Combine that with shooting being the most common skill to add.People shouldn’t be surprised that Romeo can take and make perimeter shots. He isn’t some type of brick layer that the numbers show. The game before tearing, and playing through, thumb ligaments in his shooting hand at Indiana he was coming off a 22-pt game, 2-5 threes and 8-9 from the line. Then he had wrist surgery as a professional. Combining his offense with his floor game it hurts my head when I continue reading “Langford/Nesmith” as if they are one in the same hoping one pans out. Langford is already an NBA rotation player with plenty of upside......the other is a lost rookie without the floor game or presence of Romeo.
I wouldn't want him to. Either way, Id prefer him over Kemba. I'd prefer neither.I'm sure my memory isn't as good as yours, but IIRC, the last time we saw Al, he was having huge problems playing defense against the Cs. Al isn't going out and guarding smaller people on the perimetr anymore.
Give it a few weeks and people will stop doing the RL and AN thing. RL hadn't played since September and played less minutes his rookie season than AN. Watching RL vs AN on the court and the difference is pretty clear that they are at different points in their NBA career.People shouldn’t be surprised that Romeo can take and make perimeter shots. He isn’t some type of brick layer that the numbers show. The game before tearing, and playing through, thumb ligaments in his shooting hand at Indiana he was coming off a 22-pt game, 2-5 threes and 8-9 from the line prior to playing with his right thumb heavily bandaged the remainder of the year. Then he had wrist surgery as a professional. Combining his offense with his floor game it hurts my head when I continue reading “Langford/Nesmith” as if they are one in the same hoping one pans out. Langford is already an NBA rotation player with plenty of upside......the other is a lost rookie without the floor game or presence of Romeo.
I agree with this.Because not all negative values are equal. The question is how underwater is the contract. If the player were a FA in a normal free agency market, what would he sign for? The delta between that number (his properly paid #) and the actual contract is what your paying to acquiring team in assets.
At the time of the trade Horford was due 27.5, 27 and 14.5. Though he was a poor fit in Philly, his actual production was comparable to his last year in Boston. In OKC while playing few minutes his numbers have improved. What do you think Horford would get on the market this year? Could he get the same contract that Danny gave to TT? While Horford was a bad fit in Philly, there are plenty of teams who could still use a savvy, low usage, big with some stretch to his game. They are not going to pay 27M for it, but Al could still play meaningful minutes on a winning team.
Kemba's FG and 3 percentage are down 27% and 30% from last year (and from most of his prime). He has a degenerative knee condition. The possibility of him no longer being able to contribute at all to winning basketball in the final year of that deal (while collecting 37M is a real one.
It's also worth remembering that Horford is not the only comp of a salary dump.
No, I think that makes more sense. I just think of OKC as the fallback if Orlando isn't interested for whatever reason.Am I the only one who prefers Ross+Harris over Horford?
Yes. Ross + Harris is a better option than Al HorfordAm I the only one who prefers Ross+Harris over Horford?
NBA.com has a stat called "DIFF%," which the difference between "FG%" and "DFG%". I'm not exactly sure how they calculate "FG%" for a player but I believe that "DFG%" is % of FGs made against a specific player. At any rate, people can find it at "Players Defense Dashboard Overall": Players Defense Dash Overall | Stats | NBA.com .
RL has allowed 5 makes in 20 attempts versus a 45.3 FG%, which means his "DIFF%" is -20.3. That's #2 in the league for any player defending 20 or more shots. He is behind a guy named Axel Toupane (4 DFGM / 22 DFGA versus a FG% of 38.9 means his DIFF% = -20.7), who is on a two-way contract with MIL.
#3 is some guy named Keljin Blevins for POR (-13.5% on 20DFGA). Darius Miller is #4, Paul Reed is #5 (-13.2 on 51 DFGA).
For players with a substantial # of DFGA (say 200), Claxton is #1 (-11.0 on 203 DFGA).
This may be SSS but thought it was an interesting stat. By my eyes, Romeo does a great job at challenging shots and making shooters uncomfortable
I like Claxton, really active BIG. TimeLord-ishNBA.com has a stat called "DIFF%," which the difference between "FG%" and "DFG%". I'm not exactly sure how they calculate "FG%" for a player but I believe that "DFG%" is % of FGs made against a specific player. At any rate, people can find it at "Players Defense Dashboard Overall": Players Defense Dash Overall | Stats | NBA.com .
RL has allowed 5 makes in 20 attempts versus a 45.3 FG%, which means his "DIFF%" is -20.3. That's #2 in the league for any player defending 20 or more shots. He is behind a guy named Axel Toupane (4 DFGM / 22 DFGA versus a FG% of 38.9 means his DIFF% = -20.7), who is on a two-way contract with MIL.
#3 is some guy named Keljin Blevins for POR (-13.5% on 20DFGA). Darius Miller is #4, Paul Reed is #5 (-13.2 on 51 DFGA).
For players with a substantial # of DFGA (say 200), Claxton is #1 (-11.0 on 203 DFGA).
This may be SSS but thought it was an interesting stat. By my eyes, Romeo does a great job at challenging shots and making shooters uncomfortable
Tsn in Canada has stopped showing as many Celtics games, since the Cs no loger seem a title contender, so I hav enot seen much of Romeo's return, but very simply he is closer to NBA athlete average in size and agility than Semi, Pritchard, Kemba, Grant, et al and is simply a legit defender of shooters. Being legit or average is exceptionally valuable. If he becomes an average NBA wing in first part of his contract that is high value.For players with a substantial # of DFGA (say 200), Claxton is #1 (-11.0 on 203 DFGA).
This may be SSS but thought it was an interesting stat. By my eyes, Romeo does a great job at challenging shots and making shooters uncomfortable
Langford is above average NBA athlete. His length is also amazing if he's playing at the 2, which I imagine he would be most of the time. I think another way Langford is different than the guys you mentioned because he can guard 1-3 or even 1-4.Tsn in Canada has stopped showing as many Celtics games, since the Cs no loger seem a title contender, so I hav enot seen much of Romeo's return, but very simply he is closer to NBA athlete average in size and agility than Semi, Pritchard, Kemba, Grant, et al and is simply a legit defender of shooters. Being legit or average is exceptionally valuable. If he becomes an average NBA wing in first part of his contract that is high value.
sighLangford is above average NBA athlete. His length is also amazing if he's playing at the 2, which I imagine he would be most of the time. I think another way Langford is different than the guys you mentioned because he can guard 1-3 or even 1-4.
Also Semi is a great athlete with great agility. He just never leaves the floor and doesn't use his arms. He also doesn't have the length.
You said he's closer to NBA athlete average in size and agility. That can be taken a lot of ways. I took it as he's closer, but he's not quite average in size or agility.sigh
pick your nits
I wonder if this stat has any meaning or if it's just a random number. If it does have meaning, the guy ahead of Romeo - Axel Toupane is on a two-way contract for MIL. He was also described as the "best slasher in the G League." Seems like a guy who can slash and can play + defense at the wing position would be worth more than a two-way contract to lots of teams.I like Claxton, really active BIG. TimeLord-ish
Started looking at him before the trade deadline when I thought the Nets would be kicking down the Celtics door for Tristan (Dinwiddie + Claxton). The buyout BIG market was a much better option for the Nets and others that may have had an interest in TT
Is it fascinating? I am not sure what it's trying to show nor how to interpret it beyond a meaningless novelty statistic. Is this supposed to combine offense and defense? If so why is it using field goal percentage and not eFG% or TS%? How do they attribute DFGA?I wonder if this stat has any meaning or if it's just a random number. If it does have meaning, the guy ahead of Romeo - Axel Toupane is on a two-way contract for MIL. He was also described as the "best slasher in the G League." Seems like a guy who can slash and can play + defense at the wing position would be worth more than a two-way contract to lots of teams.
Also, there are some interesting names at the other end of the list. Minimum of 20 DFGA, TJ Warren was the worst at +18.3 (21 FGA). Shaq Harrison was third worst; Bol Bol was 5th worst; Ntilikina was surprisingly 6th worst (+11.9 on 73 DFGA), followed by Carsen Edwards. Minimum 100 DFGA, the worst was RJ Hampton at +9.0 on 130 DFGA.
At a minimum of 150 DFGA, the worst 11 are: Shamet, Simons, Dieng, Garland, Wanamaker, Murray, Pokuseyski, Russell, Hermangomez (MEM), Windler, and Kanter, which seems about right.
Pretty fascinating stat.
yea, might be worth looking at over a few seasons and see if it's predictive of anything.I wonder if this stat has any meaning or if it's just a random number. If it does have meaning, the guy ahead of Romeo - Axel Toupane is on a two-way contract for MIL. He was also described as the "best slasher in the G League." Seems like a guy who can slash and can play + defense at the wing position would be worth more than a two-way contract to lots of teams.
Also, there are some interesting names at the other end of the list. Minimum of 20 DFGA, TJ Warren was the worst at +18.3 (21 FGA). Shaq Harrison was third worst; Bol Bol was 5th worst; Ntilikina was surprisingly 6th worst (+11.9 on 73 DFGA), followed by Carsen Edwards. Minimum 100 DFGA, the worst was RJ Hampton at +9.0 on 130 DFGA.
At a minimum of 150 DFGA, the worst 11 are: Shamet, Simons, Dieng, Garland, Wanamaker, Murray, Pokuseyski, Russell, Hermangomez (MEM), Windler, and Kanter, which seems about right.
Pretty fascinating stat.
I don't know the answer to your questions. I imagine that DFGA is measured by when a person is the closest defender. I definitely don't know how they determine the comparison FG%. I have thoughts how I would do it but who knows?Is it fascinating? I am not sure what it's trying to show nor how to interpret it beyond a meaningless novelty statistic. Is this supposed to combine offense and defense? If so why is it using field goal percentage and not eFG% or TS%? How do they attribute DFGA?
FWIW, their glossary defines it as "The difference between the normal percentage of a shooter on shots throughout the season and the percentage on shots when the defensive player or team is guarding the shooter. A good defensive number will be negative because the defensive player holds their opponent to a lower percentage than normal."NBA.com has a stat called "DIFF%," which the difference between "FG%" and "DFG%". I'm not exactly sure how they calculate "FG%" for a player but I believe that "DFG%" is % of FGs made against a specific player. At any rate, people can find it at "Players Defense Dashboard Overall": Players Defense Dash Overall | Stats | NBA.com .
RL has allowed 5 makes in 20 attempts versus a 45.3 FG%, which means his "DIFF%" is -20.3. That's #2 in the league for any player defending 20 or more shots. He is behind a guy named Axel Toupane (4 DFGM / 22 DFGA versus a FG% of 38.9 means his DIFF% = -20.7), who is on a two-way contract with MIL.
#3 is some guy named Keljin Blevins for POR (-13.5% on 20DFGA). Darius Miller is #4, Paul Reed is #5 (-13.2 on 51 DFGA).
For players with a substantial # of DFGA (say 200), Claxton is #1 (-11.0 on 203 DFGA).
This may be SSS but thought it was an interesting stat. By my eyes, Romeo does a great job at challenging shots and making shooters uncomfortable
Txs.FWIW, their glossary defines it as "The difference between the normal percentage of a shooter on shots throughout the season and the percentage on shots when the defensive player or team is guarding the shooter. A good defensive number will be negative because the defensive player holds their opponent to a lower percentage than normal."
This, much more than on defense, is where the lack of reps really shows.The sample size is so small it's meaningless and not really a 2 year sample but his career assist % to date is 4.3%. My hope for Langford is that he can play PG in a pinch. He'll need some improvement to get there.
He's exciting to watch but he is still really raw on offense.
Looks like he has gotten his left hand off the ball, has a stronger base, and doesn't have a hitch anymore. The bad part is that the release still looks somewhat shot-put-y. As HRB has mentioned, he has good touch, and I would bet on him getting there as an ok shooter rather than the reverse.How do people feel about his release? I guess there isn't much to go on yet. His actual shot looks a lot better.
I was thinking the same thing, but was bringing the ball up without pressure. We know doing it for a couple of minutes and doing it with someone really pressing is different. I didn't mind seeing it though, if nothing else it tells me that Brad is looking at all possibilities.Langford got a look at PG last night in a lineup of nobodies (Parker, Grant, Kornet, Nesmith). Not great, not awful. Maybe that is something (not BE a full time PG, but maybe give them a few minutes there at times) that he can eventually do.
He has a long way to go, no doubt. But the defensive value of having him at the point would be huge.I was thinking the same thing, but was bringing the ball up without pressure. We know doing it for a couple of minutes and doing it with someone really pressing is different. I didn't mind seeing it though, if nothing else it tells me that Brad is looking at all possibilities.
I don’t this it was as much of Brad looking than it was Brad not having any other options last night:I was thinking the same thing, but was bringing the ball up without pressure. We know doing it for a couple of minutes and doing it with someone really pressing is different. I didn't mind seeing it though, if nothing else it tells me that Brad is looking at all possibilities.
Yeah, "Romee" (weird nickname I admit) had about 4-5 really good defensive plays last night, including the block that wasn't.He has a long way to go, no doubt. But the defensive value of having him at the point would be huge.
True - Romeo doesn't get minutes at the point when Kemba and Smart are around, but Brad clearly sees this as something Lanford should be working towards.I don’t this it was as much of Brad looking than it was Brad not having any other options last night:
He ran three pick-and-rolls and made the right read on each of them.
All in all, there were some positives and some negatives. He at least has some of the basic building blocks for running pick-and-rolls. With practice and time to hone those skills, he could easily develop into a guy who can competently run an offense.
“If a guy is gonna play around guys like Payton (Pritchard) and guys off the bench like Aaron, we need him to be a handler because he has shooting around him,” Stevens said. “I think that’s a good spot for him as he continues to grow, but he’s not quite there yet. You won’t see it much in the last 14 games or beyond.”
That’s probably a good idea, but it might not be the worst thing in the world to sneak it into some garbage time here and there just to get him used to it some more. At the very least, if there is a summer league, he can get himself some good run as the point guard to get a better feel for the position and develop that skill.
“I think that’s a good spot for him as he continues to grow,” Stevens said. “But he’s not quite there yet.”
“We’re going to avoid it as much as we can right now obviously, just because he’s not used to it, he just hasn’t played enough games to orchestrate and organize a group,” Stevens said. “He’s just out there still kind of swimming, just because he hasn’t played a lot. He had some moments today, but you could see there were moments where he’s just not as fluid yet.”
“We will eventually kind of (use him in) Evan Turner mode, I guess,” Stevens said. “If a guy is gonna play around guys like Payton (Pritchard) and guys like that off the bench, Aaron (Nesmith), then we need him to be a handler because he has shooting around him.”
An interesting tidbit in there is... they see PP as a shooter (he is) but obviously not as a true PG (he probably isn't) and Ideally want another ball-handler out there with him. I can see the ideal fit of PP who is a shooter and mediocre handler with poor D, and Romeo, who can't shoot but has top end defensive potential, if you can make him a better facilitator. A backcourt of PP and Romeo could give you a lot as a bench unit if both are solid but unspectacular facilitators, with PP deep threat opening space, and Romeo as a slasher, and Romeo guarding the better offensive player on the other end.There's an article on The Athletic today about Romeo's future as a ball handler off the bench. It's behind a paywall but I'll pull out a couple quotes from Brad.
Celtics still learning how to maximize Romeo Langford for the present and future
Pritchard is a mediocre ballhandler?An interesting tidbit in there is... they see PP as a shooter (he is) but obviously not as a true PG (he probably isn't) and Ideally want another ball-handler out there with him. I can see the ideal fit of PP who is a shooter and mediocre handler with poor D, and Romeo, who can't shoot but has top end defensive potential, if you can make him a better facilitator. A backcourt of PP and Romeo could give you a lot as a bench unit if both are solid but unspectacular facilitators, with PP deep threat opening space, and Romeo as a slasher, and Romeo guarding the better offensive player on the other end.
Facilitator is more what I meant, his handle is good, but the "ball handler" role is also about passing and setting up teammates, PP is more of a secondary playmaker than a PG.Pritchard is a mediocre ballhandler?
Based on Stevens quotes, it appears it was both. Brad's got a long term vision that Romeo can add value to his game and the team by being able to do a bit of PG work when there are other shooters on the floor, and also... he had little else to try in that spot.I don’t this it was as much of Brad looking than it was Brad not having any other options last night: