He takes too many trips to the Caymans. And honestly, he’s just ok.I am all for new blood at this point. Dennis Celery would top my list were I running the Red Sox.
Would be a good way to get around the money on the payroll. Have him retire and give him an inflated salary for 2 years.Pedroia
Can’t even tell if this is parody at this point but I’m leaning towards no it isn’t.Would be a good way to get around the money on the payroll. Have him retire and give him an inflated salary for 2 years.
About 18 hours late with thisWould be a good way to get around the money on the payroll. Have him retire and give him an inflated salary for 2 years.
How so? It's not like the investigation would come to a screeching halt. I think the only reason Cora is still around is because the Sox want to give him the opportunity to sit with them, and explain EVERYTHING including what to expect MLB will uncover in the 2018 investigation.Given that MLB is conducting an investigation into the 2018 allegations, the Sox taking action on Cora now could be construed as potential interference into the investigation. I'm OK with Henry waiting until the investigation is over. Especially as the 2018 "stealing" seemed to be far less nefarious than what the Astros did in 2017, and all we have so far is a media report.
Pedroia was a participant in the Apple Watch scandal, you guys.Pedroia
One thing to be gained (depending on how long the MLB investigation might go) is the opportunity to head into spring training with with the manager that you're expecting to lead this team. Of course you could make this argument for the certain suspension that looms as well, but if the Sox decide to move on from Cora they might be better served to do so sooner rather than later as any potential replacement might want to make some changes to the coaching staff and again I think the club might be better served if that is taken care of before spring training.That's fair. Bottom line is we don't know what John Henry and company know. We also don't know when they learned whatever they know. I just don't agree with the reactionary "why haven't they fired him yet?" stuff. I'm not sure what is gained firing him today versus after MLB's investigations are concluded, particularly if it turns out that the "cheating" didn't carry over to Boston (again, I think it did but not on the scale that occurred in Houston).
I doubt there is anything in Cora's contract that prevents the Sox from immediately beginning their search for a replacement manager. Cora is not managing the team in 2020 and the Sox should not waste any time in preparing for the season.One thing to be gained (depending on how long the MLB investigation might go) is the opportunity to head into spring training with with the manager that you're expecting to lead this team. Of course you could make this argument for the certain suspension that looms as well, but if the Sox decide to move on from Cora they might be better served to do so sooner rather than later as any potential replacement might want to make some changes to the coaching staff and again I think the club might be better served if that is taken care of before spring training.
But the question remains is it a short or long term solution and I think that is important to potential candidates who may want to bring in some of their own people.I doubt there is anything in Cora's contract that prevents the Sox from immediately beginning their search for a replacement manager. Cora is not managing the team in 2020 and the Sox should not waste any time in preparing for the season.
Manfred went all in on the boys will be boys theory of player punishment though he dressed it up. It is a bit different from how we regard players with respect to PEDs, which is treated as a personal responsibility. I guess because it is harder to know whether a player is sticking needles in his ass?Passan said he might be banned from Baseball. I doubt it happens, but here’s the timeline, were that to occur:
1989: Pete Rose banned from baseball for betting on his own team and violating the sanctity of honest competition (I guess).
2019: Alex Cora banned from baseball for stealing signs and violating the sanctity of honest betting.
I cannot fathom how insane these punishments are. Why wasn’t Pineda banned from baseball? What about Jon Lester for his shaving cream stuff? Sammy Sosa for hid bat cork? The Blue Jays have been stealing signs for decades with their CF camera, it’s an open secret. Why is a GM getting suspended and fired over this? Why not force the owner to sell at this point?
What the hell is this happening?
Also Front Offices do not have the luxury of a union to back them up. So there can be no appeal process. Had players been suspended the Union would not stand for itManfred went all in on the boys will be boys theory of player punishment though he dressed it up. It is a bit different from how we regard players with respect to PEDs, which is treated as a personal responsibility. I guess because it is harder to know whether a player is sticking needles in his ass?
But from yesterday forward, there is zero doubt. Cheating is a management responsibility, and woe unto the manager who tries to hide behind willful blindness.
Pitchers are caught every year red handed with a foreign substance on their person or uniform, which is indisputable. Pineda got caught twice and was suspended like 1-2 starts.Manfred went all in on the boys will be boys theory of player punishment though he dressed it up. It is a bit different from how we regard players with respect to PEDs, which is treated as a personal responsibility. I guess because it is harder to know whether a player is sticking needles in his ass?
But from yesterday forward, there is zero doubt. Cheating is a management responsibility, and woe unto the manager who tries to hide behind willful blindness.
I dont feel like it is confusing at all. I think the answer is clearly “no”.Pitchers are caught every year red handed with a foreign substance on their person or uniform, which is indisputable. Pineda got caught twice and was suspended like 1-2 starts.
Moving forward, will these will be lifetime bans? Or is this just a coy “haha gamesmanship” thing. It’s all very confusing now.
Ok, but managers tend to be pretty smart about baseball stuff (there are exceptions, as we well know). They can frequently tell when the slightest thing looks off with their pitchers. So when Pineda is rubbing the big black patch of pine tar on his neck, I'm pretty sure the manager knows it. Next time he does something like that, does the manager get a one-year suspension for allowing the cheating (or perhaps a shorter penalty, if it's just a one-player-cheating issue)? What if some former player from the team blows the whistle - "everyone knew he was doctoring the ball!"I dont feel like it is confusing at all. I think the answer is clearly “no”.
You may not like the lines Manfred is drawing on player v. manager responsibility. But the one thing they are not — I guess to me at least — is confusing.
Whether it's short or long-term is under the control of the Sox. A suspension is grounds for a termination of Cora's contract. Cora is not irreplaceable, so even if he only receives a 1-year suspension why would they want to bring him back? How could they trust him not to do something else to kneecap the team?But the question remains is it a short or long term solution and I think that is important to potential candidates who may want to bring in some of their own people.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to be that manager.Ok, but managers tend to be pretty smart about baseball stuff (there are exceptions, as we well know). They can frequently tell when the slightest thing looks off with their pitchers. So when Pineda is rubbing the big black patch of pine tar on his neck, I'm pretty sure the manager knows it. Next time he does something like that, does the manager get a one-year suspension for allowing the cheating (or perhaps a shorter penalty, if it's just a one-player-cheating issue)? What if some former player from the team blows the whistle - "everyone knew he was doctoring the ball!"
That's not crystal clear at this point.
I find it very sad as well. I continue to like the guy, and appreciate his status as Puerto Rican manager. Ironic that Houston scored 100 more runs on the road without this elaborate nonsense.just seeing this... very disappointed Cora was behind the trash cans as well.
I would just fire him and move on. very sad
While I think I understand what you are saying, the broad statement you make to convey your opinion is almost certainly incorrect.A suspension is grounds for a termination of Cora's contract.
IIRC, the Cardinals employee who got into the Astros database did/is doing prison time, is permanently banned from MLB, and the Cards had to forfeit draft picks and cash to the Astros. The penalties are harsh, but i think it is consistent with what he has dished out in the past.The scale of these punishments is insane to me, and I think Manfred is going to regret it. A "one strike you're out" policy of career dismemberment is shortsighted foolishness at its finest, and the kind of shit I would have expected from a Roger Goodell, not the commish of MLB.
I'm not disagreeing, but there has been no indication so it is a legit question concerning if something is done on an interim basis or with an eye further toward the future of the team. I'm also guessing Bloom might like to get started with the process sooner rather than later.Whether it's short or long-term is under the control of the Sox. A suspension is grounds for a termination of Cora's contract. Cora is not irreplaceable, so even if he only receives a 1-year suspension why would they want to bring him back? How could they trust him not to do something else to kneecap the team?
There was a lot of good reasoning in your post, but I wanted to single this out.So, to answer the question that Ed posed more directly -- I expect that if Pineda gets caught with pine tar, his penalty will be business as usual. If a manager knew about it, encouraged it, or was willfully blind about a scheme to use pinetar, I would think he's fucked. And if a memo came out about pinetar the day before, the manager is double fucked.
To assert this, you're going to need to bring more evidence than just capitalizing "Kosher" and "Entire" (and not "houston").you cant really say this, whose to say the Sox even make the playoffs if they werent cheating during the season, given that in 2019 with basically the same team didnt even qualify for the playoffs.
logically if Cora got away With something less than Kosher in houston, he would have no compunction not to bring it o his first managerial opportunity. so depending on the outcome of the investigation, the Entire 2018 season is under question
Uh, 'round here we tend to start with logic. You, too, start your earlier post with "logically...". So people are pointing out how your logic is hugely flawed, and you're falling back on shouting "EXCUSES!"?who was it who changed the pitchers regimen during spring training? cora right. So 2018 was definitely tainted. you can make all the excuses you want, but thats all they are. EXCUSES
As is Brandon Taubman at the current time.IIRC, the Cardinals employee who got into the Astros database did/is doing prison time, is permanently banned from MLB, and the Cards had to forfeit draft picks and cash to the Astros. The penalties are harsh, but i think it is consistent with what he has dished out in the past.
This assumes that they aren't just going to roll with Roenicke this year, see how things go, and use the season as an extended audition process for various other coaches they may have their eye on, which in my mind would be a pretty defensible approach - there is a strong argument to be made that given where we are in the offseason some level of managerial continuity would be very valuable. Now, it's of course possible that Roenicke also gets punished or implicated in the forthcoming report on the Red Sox, but that's just another reason for the Sox to not do anything until that report and whatever penalties come with are finalized.I doubt there is anything in Cora's contract that prevents the Sox from immediately beginning their search for a replacement manager. Cora is not managing the team in 2020 and the Sox should not waste any time in preparing for the season.
Right, the relevant comparison isn't "player caught using pine tar/corked bat/etc. in one game" but rather "team knowingly allowing ALL their pitchers to use pine tar all the time and covering it up" or "team replacing all their hitters' bats with corked bats." And I don't think in the latter scenario anyone would be at all surprised if serious punishments were handed out.I'd say there's a difference between an individual breaking the rules of the game in a game, and a top-down organizational effort to rig games on an ongoing basis by violating a clear rule. In the case of the first, you don't want to punitively sanction the player by stripping them of their career. In the case of the second, you don't want to encourage "maybe cheating until it becomes too risky to cheat."
In today's world - unless your manager is an idiot ala Bobby Valentine - any manager will be receptive to data and analytics if he wants to stick around. The biggest job in managing a MLB team is keeping guys motivated over roughly 200 games. The in game job is hardly complicated. It's not close to being a football coach.Put another way I find it highly unlikely that the Sox are going to hire their "manager of the future" between now and the start of the season - it's either going to be Roenicke or a similar "caretaker" type with a lot of experience but no expectation that he'll be the manager beyond this year.
Yeah, I was trying to make it about a scheme hatched in the clubhouse rather than a gameday in the moment thing, but in general I agree that there is some room for degrees under Manfred's seeming reasoning.There was a lot of good reasoning in your post, but I wanted to single this out.
I'd say there's a difference between an individual breaking the rules of the game in a game, and a top-down organizational effort to rig games on an ongoing basis by violating a clear rule. In the case of the first, you don't want to punitively sanction the player by stripping them of their career. In the case of the second, you don't want to encourage "maybe cheating until it becomes too risky to cheat."
There are going to be borderline cases, but this isn't one of them.
Paranoid, illogical, and having an indifferent command of capitalization is no way to go through life, son.edit: looks like I replied to a now-banned lurker. I'll spoiler my reply but leave it for posterity, nothing interesting to see here.
To assert this, you're going to need to bring more evidence than just capitalizing "Kosher" and "Entire" (and not "houston").
As previously stated, player health explains the greatest portion of the difference between 2018 and 2019. And no small amount of luck. Even in the worst imaginable scenario, nothing Cora could have been doing would have explained a decrease in our pitchers' performance.
Then you've got the matter of MLB personally supervising the replay videos during the entire playoffs.
There's a burden of proof here that MLB themselves have said they haven't met and are still investigating. I'm not sure why you're so confident that you know better enough to make these judgments.
Uh, 'round here we tend to start with logic. You, too, start your earlier post with "logically...". So people are pointing out how your logic is hugely flawed, and you're falling back on shouting "EXCUSES!"?
Until you can explain to some of us how you go from "Cora changing the pitchers' training regimen" to "therefore, this was cheating", I think you're making unfounded accusations. Nobody in baseball media has reported on anything having to do with Cora's misconduct other than (A) communicating stolen signs while at the Astros, and (B) permitting, maybe even encouraging, batters to decode sign systems using video and then go try to implement it on the basepaths. I'm gonna need some plausible theory-of-the-crime on the pitching side before I think you get to label anyone saying otherwise as excuse-makers. If you say "the moon is made of green cheese" and we point out that we've been there and it's mostly iron and inorganic compounds, you don't get to turn around and call us "deniers". That's not how words work.
In this business, everybody except superstar players are replaceable. Managers are replaceable, front office staff are replaceable, most players are replaceable, even owners are replaceable - there are always eager billionaires out there. In environments like that, you see much harsher penalties because there's little downside to erring on the side of "protect the business". It's more true in the militaristic NFL than it is in baseball, but sports leagues are mostly alike in this - your career is short and transactional (until and unless you're a face-of-the-franchise star) and behind every employee is 10 more people who want their job. It's an oligarchic club, it's not like "dismembering careers" is going to be bad for business once competitors pick up all the talent that was blackballed too soon.The scale of these punishments is insane to me, and I think Manfred is going to regret it. A "one strike you're out" policy of career dismemberment is shortsighted foolishness at its finest, and the kind of shit I would have expected from a Roger Goodell, not the commish of MLB.
A suspension will mean that he can't perform under the terms of the contract. How could that not terminate the agreement? Why would the Sox be obligated to go through the inconvience ofWhile I think I understand what you are saying, the broad statement you make to convey your opinion is almost certainly incorrect.
I’m guessing that there is language in the contract that allows it to be voided for specific, unacceptable behavior. I cannot imagine that “a suspension” is listed. And if, as we all assume, he is fired at the end of this, Cora may very well have a case to collect the remainder of his contract.
I couldn't find a contract form for MLB managers, but the player's contract refers to "Good Citizenship" which is vague. As for suspensions over PED use, teams have been unsuccessful in terminating contracts. If the Sox incur some penalties from Cora's activities in 2018, I can't see them losing in court.While I think I understand what you are saying, the broad statement you make to convey your opinion is almost certainly incorrect.
I’m guessing that there is language in the contract that allows it to be voided for specific, unacceptable behavior. I cannot imagine that “a suspension” is listed. And if, as we all assume, he is fired at the end of this, Cora may very well have a case to collect the remainder of his contract.
The Red Sox need to fire Alex Cora now. Yesterday, if possible. Don’t wait for MLB to tell you what to do. Just do the right thing.
After speaking with two sources with direct knowledge of the situation, I get a sense that the Sox are going to stand by their man and ride this out. They just love Alex Cora, and we understand that.
But this is not an episode that calls for traditional, media-blaming defiance. This is not the time for the Sox to stick behind their guy. The Red Sox are an important local institution. Firing Cora now, before MLB’s next set of sanctions is issued, before it becomes obvious to everyone that Cora must go, allows the Sox to preserve some institutional dignity and let history record that they did the right thing.
If the term of any suspension without pay covers the remainder of his contract, then the contract is effectively terminated.A suspension will mean that he can't perform under the terms of the contract. How could that not terminate the agreement? Why would the Sox be obligated to go through the inconvience of
I couldn't find a contract form for MLB managers, but the player's contract refers to "Good Citizenship" which is vague. As for suspensions over PED use, teams have been unsuccessful in terminating contracts. If the Sox incur some penalties from Cora's activities in 2018, I can't see them losing in court.
Any MLB suspensions are without pay, so a 2-year suspension would effectively end any financial obligations to Cora.
Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were banned from baseball by Commissioner Kuhn for doing promo work for a casino.Passan said he might be banned from Baseball. I doubt it happens, but here’s the timeline, were that to occur:
1989: Pete Rose banned from baseball for betting on his own team and violating the sanctity of honest competition (I guess).
2019: Alex Cora banned from baseball for stealing signs and violating the sanctity of honest betting.
I cannot fathom how insane these punishments are. Why wasn’t Pineda banned from baseball? What about Jon Lester for his shaving cream stuff? Sammy Sosa for hid bat cork? The Blue Jays have been stealing signs for decades with their CF camera, it’s an open secret. Why is a GM getting suspended and fired over this? Why not force the owner to sell at this point?
What the hell is this happening?
It will be tougher to stand by your man when he's banned from the game.Standing by their man may merely mean waiting until MLB's decree comes out before deciding to take action.
Which, I'm sorry, would be the stupidest punishment in the history of sports.It will be tougher to stand by your man when he receives a lifetime ban.
Are we seriously considering Cora could be banned for life? I mean, throwing a world series and betting on baseball is bad, but thinking of the most clever way to steal signs in baseball isnt at that level.It will be tougher to stand by your man when he's banned from the game.
I think this line of comparisons is on to something.Pitchers are caught every year red handed with a foreign substance on their person or uniform, which is indisputable. Pineda got caught twice and was suspended like 1-2 starts.
Moving forward, will these will be lifetime bans? Or is this just a coy “haha gamesmanship” thing. It’s all very confusing now.
I don't see how it's possible to defend Cora. When this story broke there was a huge outcry and a call for significant penalties for the Astros. There was also a thread in this forum where posters proposed things like a ban from the playoffs. How could Cora be oblivious to the risks he was taking on behalf of the organization? Did he believe that if they were busted, he could just say "Well, all teams do the same thing" and everything would be OK? Did he believe that, although the rule of thumb is that no more than 2 people can keep a secret and that's only if one of them is dead, 68 people could do so? He showed horrible judgement that reflects on him as a person.Which, I'm sorry, would be the stupidest punishment in the history of sports.
Maybe Cora should be fired for some sort of continuation for what he apparently did in Houston with the Red Sox who were already on thin ice. But a lifetime ban? Come on ... that would mean MLB would effectively be penalizing the Red Sox more harshly than the Astros for this. That can't be allowed to happen -- and if I were the Red Sox FO, I wouldn't just stand by and let it happen either.
I don't think Cora should be fired for any of this, frankly. It's not clear to me that what happened with the Astros was some grave offense to the integrity of the game, much less what happened with the Sox. But if they're standing behind him beyond just waiting for the report to come out, my guess is that they think Cora is being treated unfairly in some way or taking the fall for the Astros. And if he is, I think that's the right call on their part.
I heard Mutnansky on WEEI say Cora is supposed to be on the radio on Friday promoting this event. Mutnansky stated that Cora would be asked about the sign stealing if he does do the radio appearance.Not that it means anything but Cora is still listed as attending the Red Sox Winter Weekend at Foxwoods this weekend (as of 2 minutes ago). It's usually a pretty big event; this cloud of cheating is probably a bit of a nightmare for PR for the event.