I’d also add that when the technology employed is part of the ballpark’s infrastructure (i.e., cameras hooked up to a tv feed) it gives the home team an advantage over the road team, which seems inherently more unfair than when the sign stealing method could be employed by either team equally.I think players trying to decipher and relay signs among themselves while also trying to focus on playing a difficult game somewhat minimizes the impact of sign stealing, unless the pitcher/catcher combo really isn't trying very hard to counter it. That's a bit of a game-within-a-game between players already competing on the field.
To me, using additional personnel supported by technical means changes things well beyond that simple dynamic and invites an additional sophistication that tilts the balance of competition to more fully favor the hitter and puts the pitcher/catcher at more of a competitive disadvantage.
It’s fascinating, right? You cut guys or trade them or lowball them then expect them to keep your secrets. Even if there’s no hard feelings, your former players are directly competing against you fairly often.I think the latter but if you read the Athletic piece, this seems to have leaked because Mike Fiers was released and told his new teams (quite understandably) about it.
Which also calls into the question the Astros' judgment. Why do this in the regular season against the frikkin White Sox when the Astros are pretty heavy division favorites. Wait for the playoffs at least.It’s fascinating, right? You cut guys or trade them or lowball them then expect them to keep your secrets. Even if there’s no hard feelings, your former players are directly competing against you fairly often.
That is a really good point.I’d also add that when the technology employed is part of the ballpark’s infrastructure (i.e., cameras hooked up to a tv feed) it gives the home team an advantage over the road team, which seems inherently more unfair than when the sign stealing method could be employed by either team equally.
I'd think practice and refinement, but arrogance and shittiness seem to be organizational hallmarks, so probably more the latter two.Which also calls into the question the Astros' judgment. Why do this in the regular season against the frikkin White Sox when the Astros are pretty heavy division favorites. Wait for the playoffs at least.
Perhaps you do it in the regular season to work out the kinks and get everybody comfortable and smooth with it, so that by the time the playoffs roll around it's second nature for all concerned. You wouldn't want to roll something like that out in the highest-stakes games of the year, when there are a million eyes on you.Which also calls into the question the Astros' judgment. Why do this in the regular season against the frikkin White Sox when the Astros are pretty heavy division favorites. Wait for the playoffs at least.
“Look, that’s a whole ‘nother discussion. The guy is giving signals in front of 80,000 other people, okay. So, we filmed him taking signals in front of 80,000 people like there were a lot of other teams doing at that time, too, okay.”Everyone here saying that sign stealing is fine as long as technology isn't involved...how did/do you all feel about Spygate?
Good question. I would assume to make sure nobody was able to get it turned on.If the tv wasn't working, why were they looking up at it?
Because without cheating they'd be worse than the White Sox.Which also calls into the question the Astros' judgment. Why do this in the regular season against the frikkin White Sox when the Astros are pretty heavy division favorites. Wait for the playoffs at least.
I figured it was because it wasn't an actual TV and it had a camera inside it.Good question. I would assume to make sure nobody was able to get it turned on.
The point was about the use of technology to aid in the stealing/deciphering of signs.You mean reviewing signs used during one game to be used in another? Apples and Pumpkins to stealing / relaying signs in real time.
Forget it, Jake ... it's ChinatownThe point was about the use of technology to aid in the stealing/deciphering of signs.
It’s legal in the NFL.The point was about the use of technology to aid in the stealing/deciphering of signs.
So we’re going to ignore all of the actual specifics, which is the entire point there, to generalize a camera = a camera? It would be helpful to know how lazy we’re going to be in this comparison to determine how much we should push back on it.The point was about the use of technology to aid in the stealing/deciphering of signs.
I have no problem with the Astros reviewing video of pitchers and catchers and deciphering the signs after the game, which is the closest analogy to what Spygate was. I’d expect that to be part of what every team does, similar to watching tape of pitchers. But in-game tech-aided sign stealing is qualitatively a different thing. Whether you feel what the Astros did is fine or not, the analogy to the Patriots and Spygate is lazyThe point was about the use of technology to aid in the stealing/deciphering of signs.
They only reported on 2017, that was all they got confirmation for.Since I don’t subscribe to The Athletic, did Altuve know what was coming when he homered off Chapman?
I was under the impression this was their own camera and monitor not the regular TV feed. Could be wrong.One of the guys on MLBN (maybe Ken Rosenthal?) said that MLB has already instituted a 8 second delay to TVs in the ballpark. He made it sound like they instituted this before 2019 if not 2018, and so my guess is that MLB knew about this already and tried to fix it behind the scenes.
The Red Sox were fined. And in a STFU move, MLB fined the Yankees as well.I'm confused about the punishment issue. Weren't the Sox assessed a fine by mlb for the Apple watch business? (I believe the amount was undisclosed and turned over to charity.)
Never watching Today Show ever again. What a prime example of lazy journalism. I expect nothing less from the network that employed Matt Lauer and tried to kill Ronan Farrell's story but that's off tangent.The Today Show did a story about the Astor’s cheating this morning and used “Spygate” and “Deflategate” as reference points.
Fuck you Today Show.
The flipside is that if other outlets conflate this with the Patriots issues, and if MLB is even remotely like the NFL in succumbing to public sentiment on these types of issues, then maybe Houston will actually get punished for thisThe Today Show did a story about the Astor’s cheating this morning and used “Spygate” and “Deflategate” as reference points.
Fuck you Today Show.
Not the best example by Bauer as that was not a quality breaking pitch.
Yes, although hindsight is always easy to spot because you're working from the known rather than the unknown. Like pitch tipping, etc.These videos are so unbelievably damning. It's just so obvious when you know what to listen for.
Yeah, I watched that yesterday and in that specific (long) at bat with Gattis I think you can hear the double banging of the can three times.The Danny Fahrquar vid where they're banging on the trash can is so blatant as to be enough to punish them for rank stupidity.
I think/hope the punishment is going to be significant, but will probably take a bit of time to sort out. I'm guessing the current Taubman investigation might expand to include this and would think that MLB would want to speak to a mix of players and administration about this to get a proper feel for the exact scope of this. It's going to be pretty damn hard for any hitter to deny knowledge of this given the scheme was designed to enhance their at bats.I'm confused about the punishment issue. Weren't the Sox assessed a fine by mlb for the Apple watch business? (I believe the amount was undisclosed and turned over to charity.)
I'll have to find it, but I read that the other teams rumored to have done similar things are the Brewers and the Rangers.While we wait for the punishment for the Astros, I'm still curious about the statement in the article that electronic stealing is not a one-team issue, and the manager who says such things are rampant across baseball.
Will any/every other team doing similar things get a pass while Houston takes one for the team?
Another reason why this is probably going to take a bit of time to sort out.While we wait for the punishment for the Astros, I'm still curious about the statement in the article that electronic stealing is not a one-team issue, and the manager who says such things are rampant across baseball.
Will any/every other team doing similar things get a pass while Houston takes one for the team?
I don't have a subscription so didn't read the full article. Is there proof about other teams? Other than an anonymous manager, which could be Hinch or someone with connections to the org, making a pretty broad general statement.While we wait for the punishment for the Astros, I'm still curious about the statement in the article that electronic stealing is not a one-team issue, and the manager who says such things are rampant across baseball.
Will any/every other team doing similar things get a pass while Houston takes one for the team?
... is that it was completely misreported and misrepresented by the media and the league and more about understanding play-calling trends as opposed to in-game adjustments. It was against the rules as defined by a memo sent out by a league executive. Someone here should just link that article that explains all this better than I could so we can stop with this.The thing about Spygate
Another thing to remember about the Spygate incident (as I understand it) is that the taping in itself wasn't the issue but rather the vantage point from where the taping took place. It was a practice widely used within the league and according to the NFL the Patriots/BB employed it in an area that was off limits. You're right we'll never know what impact it may or may not have had on the Superbowl but seeing this electronic sign stealing going down in real time is a horse of a different color which I think a lot of people (not you axx) fail to recognize when comparing the two.The thing about Spygate is that it's unclear how much the Patriots benefited by the taping, and probably will never know. This seems a lot more blatant/obvious. So if MLB wants to put the hammer down on the Astros, it would be an easier sell. I think MLB might wait a bit to see if they can gather evidence of other teams doing this.
Well you are technically correct with respect to Spygate, but the reality is that the Patriots were punished as if TAPING AT ALL was against the rules. Remember, the fury over it, from all the pundits to league officials, wasn't about "Well, sure, they were allowed to tape, they just did it from a wrong location in the building." You don't dock a team a 1st round draft pick and fine them like a million dollars total for putting the camera in the wrong place. BB was correct in that the rules did not strictly forbid the Pats from taping defensive signals, but the league sure treated the team (with the ensuing punishment, that frankly led to the Deflategate punishment as well) as if it was taping, period, that was illegal.Another thing to remember about the Spygate incident (as I understand it) is that the taping in itself wasn't the issue but rather the vantage point from where the taping took place. It was a practice widely used within the league and according to the NFL the Patriots/BB employed it in an area that was off limits. You're right we'll never know what impact it may or may not have had on the Superbowl but seeing this electronic sign stealing going down in real time is a horse of a different color which I think a lot of people (not you axx) fail to recognize when comparing the two.
You're a little late with this one