2017 Steelers: MyFace Champions

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Pretty much where I'm at. The players seem to like him a lot and are willing to go through walls for him so that's a huge positive. On the other hand, there are times when I get frustrated that he's not the greatest tactician. It's probably an unfair benchmark because my reference point is Belichick who has something close to three times as many years working in the NFL as Tomlin and who also learned from one of the best in Parcells. But then I look around and see Dan Quinn and Mike McCarthy are head coaches and it makes me feel better about Tomlin.
I agree. I also think that the HC really doesn't have to be a master tactician in today's NFL as long as he (and the organization in general) do a reasonable job putting together a high quality staff that will also have some continuity. I know these guys get flack from Steelers fans at times and that matchups with the Patriots haven't gone so well, but overall I'd say Lebeau/Butler and Arians/Haley are pretty high quality coordinators. Tomlin has been able to work effectively with other good people over long periods of time. That is important and probably underrated.
 

Captaincoop

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The Steelers are talking so openly about their rematch with the Patriots in the playoffs, it's kind of jarring. If I were the Jags, or whoever the Steelers play in the first playoff game, I would feel pretty disrespected. (This may not be the best example below, because he could be talking about a non-Patriots playoff game...but we've seen plenty of other quotes)

upload_2017-12-20_10-0-38.png
 

simplyeric

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I mean it's nickname is the Brady rule and they only changed it after the season he got the ACL injury from Pollard and Palmer's was a full two years before that.....

http://archive.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2009/03/24/brady_rule_steps_taken_to_protect_qbs_knees/
THE CARSON PALMER RULE
A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him. The rule came after Carson Palmer and other quarterbacks suffered knee injuries due to low hits.

I think the "Brady Rule" was an extension of the Palmer rule, making it generally illegal to go at the lower legs, rather than relating to the planting of feet or whatever.
 

simplyeric

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More clarity on that:

After Palmer's knee injury, the NFL's rules committee changed a preexisting rule that prohibited defensive players from hitting a quarterback at or below the knee, with the only exception being that they were blocked into the quarterback. Per John Clayton when the rule was changed in 2006.

A rushing defensive player won't be allowed to forcibly hit a quarterback below the knees. He has to make every effort to avoid such a low hit. Palmer, Griese and Roethlisberger suffered knee injuries on low hits but those three plays were considered legal by the committee because they involved defensive rushers coming off blocks. Several other plays such as the old Rodney Harrison hit on Trent Green when he was with the Rams along with a Jared Allen low hit on Kerry Collins would be subject to a 15-yard penalty. That proposal passed, 25-7

After Tom Brady's season-ending injury during the Patriots' opening weekend against the Kansas City Chiefs, the Competition Committee further adopted the rule.

The clarification specifically prohibits a defender on the ground who hasn't been blocked or fouled directly into the quarterback from lunging or diving at the quarterback's lower legs.
 

Marciano490

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joe dokes

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Whatever one thinks of Tomlin's post-game comments, it looks here like he was on top of things:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/12/20/nfl-films-shows-how-unprepared-the-steelers-were-at-end-of-game/


Coach Mike Tomlin made it clear to offensive coordinator Todd Haley that, if the next play after the reversal (second and goal) ended with the clock still ticking, the Steelers would run another play.

“If it’s in the field of play, we got to play,” Tomlin said to Haley. “You follow me? You got me?”

Tomlin then says to Haley, “Give [quarterback Ben Roethlisberger] a play. He can’t clock it. Give him a play.”
 

steveluck7

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The Steelers are talking so openly about their rematch with the Patriots in the playoffs, it's kind of jarring. If I were the Jags, or whoever the Steelers play in the first playoff game, I would feel pretty disrespected. (This may not be the best example below, because he could be talking about a non-Patriots playoff game...but we've seen plenty of other quotes)

View attachment 19025
Yeah, that specific quote is basically somebody with verbal diarrhea trying to say "we're on to Houston"
 

DJnVa

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The Steelers are talking so openly about their rematch with the Patriots in the playoffs, it's kind of jarring. If I were the Jags, or whoever the Steelers play in the first playoff game, I would feel pretty disrespected. (This may not be the best example below, because he could be talking about a non-Patriots playoff game...but we've seen plenty of other quotes)

View attachment 19025
Yeah, I don't think that's saying that--I think Ben is just saying "Yeah, we lost, but at least it didn't end our season like a playoff game would."
 

Harry Hooper

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THE CARSON PALMER RULE
A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him. The rule came after Carson Palmer and other quarterbacks suffered knee injuries due to low hits.

I think the "Brady Rule" was an extension of the Palmer rule, making it generally illegal to go at the lower legs, rather than relating to the planting of feet or whatever.
Yes, the Brady Rule is a misnomer in that it was a tweak of the already-existing rule. In fact, Vince Wilfork has been punished by the league for a low hit on a QB under the Carson Palmer Rule before Brady's injury ever happened.
 

Marciano490

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Then where was the breakdown, because only Ben and Eli had the play.
I can't remember if they huddled before the play or not, but, if not, wouldn't the play have been called at the line for everyone to hear? It's not like he whispered it tenderly in Rogers' ear.
 

Harry Hooper

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I can't remember if they huddled before the play or not, but, if not, wouldn't the play have been called at the line for everyone to hear? It's not like he whispered it tenderly in Rogers' ear.
Tomlin's comments to Haley were about running a play if the TD call was reversed. That play called by Haley ended up being the completion to Heyward-Bey where he was tackled in bounds. According the Rothlisberger, he wanted to then do a spike to stop the clock, but was then instructed to run a play. He did his wink-and-nod exchange with Roberts to run the play that ended up with the INT. Per Phil Perry:

After that play," Roethlisberger said, "after I see the [official] signal in bounds, I'm yelling 'Clock! Clock! The second the offense hears 'Clock! Clock!' the only rule is the two outside receivers are on the ball, everybody else is off the ball . . . They're expecting me to spike the ball right away so there's no protection, no play, no nothing.

"I was yelling 'Clock! Clock! and guys were getting set. Then it comes through my headset, 'Ben, don't clock it. Run a play. Run a play.' Well, at that time, guys are all over the place, no one's lined up in their proper spot. In order for me to get guys lined up to call a play, you're talking 15-20 seconds potentially. Then there's lots of what-if factors. At that moment, the only thing I can do is give a receiver a quick hand signal to run a quick route and try and hold the ball long enough -- because, like I said, the line is not blocking in protection. They're basically lining up.

"In that moment in my head I'm thinking, 'Do I spike it? Do I not? I went with . . . I probably wish I went with my gut obviously now in hindsight. I should've listened to that instead of listening to running a play. I tried to make a play to Eli [Rogers]. I don't regret it. I just wish I made a better throw. I'll take the blame for the interception at the end of the game. My thought was clock it and then we either kick a field goal to tie, or run our best fourth-down play to win it."

Tomlin explained Tuesday that Roethlisberger could've spiked it if he wanted.
 

Marciano490

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Lol at 15-20 seconds. Didn't we run our offensive off the field, get the field goal unit on, line up, snap and convert in like 13 seconds?

I can't imagine if the Pats were in that position - or a bunch of other teams even - they couldn't audible to a play and hike the ball in 5 seconds or less. You're talking about linemen moving a couple inches, getting set and receivers defaulting into a set play the QB yells out to them.

Nevermind that this was a home game.
 

tims4wins

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Tomlin's comments to Haley were about running a play if the TD call was reversed. That play called by Haley ended up being the completion to Heyward-Bey where he was tackled in bounds. According the Rothlisberger, he wanted to then do a spike to stop the clock, but was then instructed to run a play. He did his wink-and-nod exchange with Roberts to run the play that ended up with the INT. Per Phil Perry:
Not according to this

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/12/20/nfl-films-shows-how-unprepared-the-steelers-were-at-end-of-game/

Coach Mike Tomlin made it clear to offensive coordinator Todd Haley that, if the next play after the reversal (second and goal) ended with the clock still ticking, the Steelers would run another play.

“If it’s in the field of play, we got to play,” Tomlin said to Haley. “You follow me? You got me?”

Tomlin then says to Haley, “Give [quarterback Ben Roethlisberger] a play. He can’t clock it. Give him a play.”
 

simplyeric

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Lol at 15-20 seconds. Didn't we run our offensive off the field, get the field goal unit on, line up, snap and convert in like 13 seconds?

I can't imagine if the Pats were in that position - or a bunch of other teams even - they couldn't audible to a play and hike the ball in 5 seconds or less. You're talking about linemen moving a couple inches, getting set and receivers defaulting into a set play the QB yells out to them.

Nevermind that this was a home game.
At the very least there should be a "fake spike" play that the team already has in the can, and if Tomlin was calling for it previously, it should have been named in the huddle of the previous play.

Ben: hey guys, by the way, if the clock doesn't stop after this play we're running the Fake Spike play on 2nd down.

Other player: Ben, it's already 2nd down right now.

Ben: um....​

Anyway:

 

Harry Hooper

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Not according to this

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/12/20/nfl-films-shows-how-unprepared-the-steelers-were-at-end-of-game/

Coach Mike Tomlin made it clear to offensive coordinator Todd Haley that, if the next play after the reversal (second and goal) ended with the clock still ticking, the Steelers would run another play.

“If it’s in the field of play, we got to play,” Tomlin said to Haley. “You follow me? You got me?”

Tomlin then says to Haley, “Give [quarterback Ben Roethlisberger] a play. He can’t clock it. Give him a play.”
Wow, what a mess.
 

pappymojo

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Tomlin's comments to Haley were about running a play if the TD call was reversed. That play called by Haley ended up being the completion to Heyward-Bey where he was tackled in bounds. According the Rothlisberger, he wanted to then do a spike to stop the clock, but was then instructed to run a play. He did his wink-and-nod exchange with Roberts to run the play that ended up with the INT. Per Phil Perry:
After that play," Roethlisberger said, "after I see the [official] signal in bounds, I'm yelling 'Clock! Clock! The second the offense hears 'Clock! Clock!' the only rule is the two outside receivers are on the ball, everybody else is off the ball . . . They're expecting me to spike the ball right away so there's no protection, no play, no nothing.

"I was yelling 'Clock! Clock! and guys were getting set. Then it comes through my headset, 'Ben, don't clock it. Run a play. Run a play.' Well, at that time, guys are all over the place, no one's lined up in their proper spot.
Was it illegal for them to use the headsets at that point in the game?
 

simplyeric

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So, a question on that long play to Juju: was that a breakdown in the Pat's defensive scheme? Or just one of those plays where our team got out-executed?
Simple crossing route, looks like our LB ran into a pick (by Steelers #10) on the coverage. I mean, it wasn't egregious so I am not surprised it wasn't called, if it was even a violation. But once the two routes crossed, there was noone there..the rest of the secondary was 10-15 yards downfield, Ben hit JuJu in stride and he had room to run. A couple of blocks and a missed tackle (not like a bad miss...a lunge for the shoestring that didn't quite make it), and suddenly he's on the 10 yard line.

So, credit where due? That was a well-designed and well-executed play, at a critical juncture, seems to me.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The Steelers are talking so openly about their rematch with the Patriots in the playoffs, it's kind of jarring. If I were the Jags, or whoever the Steelers play in the first playoff game, I would feel pretty disrespected. (This may not be the best example below, because he could be talking about a non-Patriots playoff game...but we've seen plenty of other quotes)

View attachment 19025
Not to pile on, but what part talks about their rematch with the Patriots?

There’s plenty to criticize, let’s not create stuff.
 

Captaincoop

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Not to pile on, but what part talks about their rematch with the Patriots?

There’s plenty to criticize, let’s not create stuff.
Did you read the words in the post you're responding to?

We're not "creating stuff" - you can feel free to google more examples of the Steelers talking about the "rematch" which is far from certain to occur. If you've been reading anything this week, you've already seen them.
 

simplyeric

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Not to pile on, but what part talks about their rematch with the Patriots?

There’s plenty to criticize, let’s not create stuff.
Did you read the words in the post you're responding to?

We're not "creating stuff" - you can feel free to google more examples of the Steelers talking about the "rematch" which is far from certain to occur. If you've been reading anything this week, you've already seen them.
Did you interpret the statement to mean "this [Patriots] game was not the last [Patriots] game of the year"
As opposed to "this [Patriots] game was not the last [Steelers regular season] game of the year"
?
 

Captaincoop

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simplyeric

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Oh you want me to read something rather than just glance at a short quote?

Ugh.

I suppose this quote (of a quote) is unambiguous:
"We'll definitely see them again. And the outcome will be different.”
and this one
"we’ll probably end up seeing this team again,” James said.
Big Ben was a little more circumspect:
“I mean, yeah,” Roethlisberger said when asked if he hopes to see the Patriots again. “Because that means we’ve made it pretty far.”
(emphasis mine)
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Aditi Kinkhabwala‏Verified account @AKinkhabwala 22h22 hours ago
Mike Tomlin says majority of time during the Jesse James non-TD review was spent weighing what to do if ball was spotted at 1-yard line. B/c THAT is what refs indicated to him was the likely ruling. (Clock would've run, minus 10 seconds)
I'm calling Bullshit here. There's no way the ball could have been spotted at the 1 yard line. No one in the building or watching on TV thought James was touched down. It was either TD or INC.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Was it illegal for them to use the headsets at that point in the game?
Coach to QB helmet communication is permitted until 15 seconds is left on the play clock (or the ball is snapped if earlier than 15 seconds). So, if you get to the line quickly, coaches can keep talking to you. There is a cut-off official who turns it off at 15 seconds.
 

luckiestman

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Coach to QB helmet communication is permitted until 15 seconds is left on the play clock (or the ball is snapped if earlier than 15 seconds). So, if you get to the line quickly, coaches can keep talking to you. There is a cut-off official who turns it off at 15 seconds.

I don’t watch enough rams games to know if this is true but I read this is why Goff gets to the line early (does he?)
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I don’t watch enough rams games to know if this is true but I read this is why Goff gets to the line early (does he?)
I'm not sure either. I don't watch them much. But I'm pretty sure that Chip Kelly specifically coached this and they did it all year in his first year with the Eagles. They would call out blitzes and linebackers and stuff.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don’t watch enough rams games to know if this is true but I read this is why Goff gets to the line early (does he?)
This is the NFL version of what college QBs do. They go to the line extra early, start the snap count, then stop and look over to the sidelines. The coaches initially put in whatever position group they want to run with on that play and make adjustments to the particular play call based on what the defense is lined up with.
 

WheresDewey

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Just a bit about Tomlin. He reminds me of Dusty Baker in baseball. Advanced stats people slag Baker because he does a lot of things demonstrably wrong. And yet he regularly has beaten Pythagorean predictions for his teams and seems to do well in the non-quantifiable "leader of men" aspects of being a coach.

Tomlin doesn't excel at the technical x's and o's aspects of coaching and yet has gotten consistently good results over a long period of time. I'm glad he's not coaching the Patriots, but we should acknowledge he's an above average coach.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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This is the NFL version of what college QBs do. They go to the line extra early, start the snap count, then stop and look over to the sidelines. The coaches initially put in whatever position group they want to run with on that play and make adjustments to the particular play call based on what the defense is lined up with.
I SO hate this. Get to the line, start the count, then everyone stands up and looks at the coach.
 

Al Zarilla

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Just a bit about Tomlin. He reminds me of Dusty Baker in baseball. Advanced stats people slag Baker because he does a lot of things demonstrably wrong. And yet he regularly has beaten Pythagorean predictions for his teams and seems to do well in the non-quantifiable "leader of men" aspects of being a coach.

Tomlin doesn't excel at the technical x's and o's aspects of coaching and yet has gotten consistently good results over a long period of time. I'm glad he's not coaching the Patriots, but we should acknowledge he's an above average coach.
Maybe Tomlin has had a lot of stacked teams, like this year’s 8 pro bowlers (not that that means they should be twice as good as the Patriots, who have 4, but still, that’s a lot of ballers). To me, except for some obvious hall of fame coaches, like B.B., Walsh and Lombardi, and the other extreme of guys like Rich Kotite and Abe Gibron, how do we know how much difference a coach makes?
 

tims4wins

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Le'Veon Bell update:
307 carries (previous career high 290); projected 351 or 21% higher than his previous career high
80 catches (previous career high 83); projected 91 or 10% higher than his previous career high
387 touches (previous career high 373; projected 442 or 18.5% higher than his previous career high

That's a lot of touches.
 
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The Needler

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Le'Veon Bell update:
307 carries (previous high 290); projected 351 or 21% higher than his previous career high
80 catches (previous career high 83); projected 91 or 10% higher than his previous career high
387 touches (previous career high 373; projected 442 or 18.5% higher than his previous career high

That's a lot of touches.
Especially for a RB who's 15th in rushing DVOA and 18th in receiving DVOA. As a fan of another team, happy to see him being overfed.
 

tims4wins

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Especially for a RB who's 15th in rushing DVOA and 18th in receiving DVOA. As a fan of another team, happy to see him being overfed.
And now James Conner is going to IR, so there is less backup. And in all likelihood the Steelers need to win both of their remaining games to secure a bye. He isn't going to only touch the ball like 20 more times. 50-60 more seems likely.
 

edmunddantes

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Le'Veon Bell update:
307 carries (previous career high 290); projected 351 or 21% higher than his previous career high
80 catches (previous career high 83); projected 91 or 10% higher than his previous career high
387 touches (previous career high 373; projected 442 or 18.5% higher than his previous career high

That's a lot of touches.
They really are using up what tread they can before they let him go?
 

edmunddantes

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He's got one more tag left at about $14.5 million. Wouldn't be surprised if that happens.
I could be wrong, but I thought the real limit is not number of times you can franchise, but how much you are willing to keep absorbing the 20 or 30% increases that come once you are above the Top 5 average (or whatever it is).
 

tims4wins

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I could be wrong, but I thought the real limit is not number of times you can franchise, but how much you are willing to keep absorbing the 20 or 30% increases that come once you are above the Top 5 average (or whatever it is).
Correct. So if next year is $14.5, 2019 would be $17.4. That's a lot for a RB, even one as good as Bell, especially with the wear and tear that is now building.

While Bell has been in the league for 5 years now, he is still not even 26 years old though. So the Steelers could conceivably still get another 4-5 good years from him if they want to spend the money. He doesn't have a ton of wear and tear overall by RB standards, just over 1,500 career touches at this point. If they do extend him, they would be wise to dial back his touches though, IMO.
 
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