Another start for Chris Young tonight against a right handed pitcher. Chacin is not a reverse split pitcher either as the OPS against RHB is .106 lower than vs. LHB.
OMG! Young Is Starting Again! Fire Farrell!
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
This needs to be stopped from above. There is zero reason, ever, for Young to be getting ABs against RHP in non-emergency situations.
Scenario: You are now the skipper of the Boston Red Sox. You are charged with keeping Chris Young game ready. He sucks against RHP and LHP is still very limited in the league, how do you get him playing time? Go.
You don't. Your 4th OF doesn't need regular maintenance to "stay game ready," and frankly that's one of the worst reaches to justify a defenseless managerial decision I've ever seen.
Play him to his strengths and hit against LHP. If there are not a lot of left handed starters, then he doesn't play that much. Try to get him right in the cage. Getting him game ABs is important but if he's struggling as badly as he is putting him in there in situations he's going to fail in might send him deeper in the hole.
Why would DD stop it? The team almost certainly signed him with the intent of playing him heavily at home. He is a career 50% fly ball and pull hitter. The thread when we signed him was full of this point.
Young vs. Chacin:
23 PA
6 Hits (.286)
2 BB's
3 K's
Last faced him in 2014 (3 at bats) 2 Hits / 1 Double.
Not enough to go on, except that he's seen him before and Holt hasn't.
23 PA
6 Hits (.286)
2 BB's
3 K's
Last faced him in 2014 (3 at bats) 2 Hits / 1 Double.
Not enough to go on, except that he's seen him before and Holt hasn't.
The only reason Chris Young is still in the major leagues is because he can hit left-handed pitching, so no, I'm going to disagree and say that's the reason they signed him, not to be set up to repeatedly fail horribly against right-handed starters.
That might be true if we were talking about a Bobby Kielty type but Chris Young is only now transitioning into this 4th OF role. He's use to starting games. And the dude he's giving a blow to, Brock Holt, is notorious for fading down the stretch. So what's the big deal? Yea, it's not optimal to give Young ABs against RHP but you have to do things like this when you're managing over a 162 game season.
The cage doesn't really translate to game preparedness and these guys hit their way out of slumps.
Young has only started 5 games out of 21 games. Re-fucking-lax.
No, you don't. It's setting players up to fail and not optimizing your squad in otherwise completely winnable games.
Young has started multiples times against RHP (once before the Sox faced two LHP in a row.) That's inexcusable, and your concern over Young's playing time is baffling to me. He's one of the least-important players on the team. It's like saying it's a problem that Pat Light or Matt Barnes haven't pitched in a week and a half. Who cares?
We agree that Young had a good year for the Yankees in 2015?
He ended up facing more RHP than LHP (181 to 175). He sucked against RHP, but the Idiot Girardi seemed to think he could face them. He hit 7 HR's off RHP...7 HR off LHP but struck out a hell of a lot more against righties.
He never had fewer than 47 PA's in a month (71 in June, 47 in August). He started 77 games and subbed in 63.
Now, it's the Yankees, so any right-handed breathing human has a better chance at strategic appearances than with the Red Sox.
The question is, "Would he have had an OPS better than .773 if he'd only batted against RHP (.972), or was that remarkable OPS against righties due to the fact that he was getting regular at bats against all pitchers?"
The answer is: "Holt will wear down to a nub if he doesn't get regular days off during the season". I also think he may have hurt his back against the wall yesterday. He didn't look so good after that dance with the rivets.
He ended up facing more RHP than LHP (181 to 175). He sucked against RHP, but the Idiot Girardi seemed to think he could face them. He hit 7 HR's off RHP...7 HR off LHP but struck out a hell of a lot more against righties.
He never had fewer than 47 PA's in a month (71 in June, 47 in August). He started 77 games and subbed in 63.
Now, it's the Yankees, so any right-handed breathing human has a better chance at strategic appearances than with the Red Sox.
The question is, "Would he have had an OPS better than .773 if he'd only batted against RHP (.972), or was that remarkable OPS against righties due to the fact that he was getting regular at bats against all pitchers?"
The answer is: "Holt will wear down to a nub if he doesn't get regular days off during the season". I also think he may have hurt his back against the wall yesterday. He didn't look so good after that dance with the rivets.
Guys need days off occasionally, right? I mean, they've faced two lefties all year. We've seen what happens to Holt if he plays every day.
May as well get him in against the crappy pitcher when they ought to be flush with runs, and have your best lineup against the Yankees. They aren't facing CC either - so Young probably wouldn't get a start until next week at the earliest anyhow.
I think it's less about getting Young going, and more about keeping someone rested.
The team needs a capable left handed bench bat - but this is what they have to work with, so use the roster.
May as well get him in against the crappy pitcher when they ought to be flush with runs, and have your best lineup against the Yankees. They aren't facing CC either - so Young probably wouldn't get a start until next week at the earliest anyhow.
I think it's less about getting Young going, and more about keeping someone rested.
The team needs a capable left handed bench bat - but this is what they have to work with, so use the roster.
This should be nicely put to the test next week when we face Quintana-Danks-Rodon in Chicago (and miss Sale). All LHP.
Maybe Farrell just wants Young to get some game action in before a couple of starts next week.
The idea that Chris Young was going to have 0 ABs against RHP this year- even considering he was brought in as a lefty killer- is really naive and a bizarre place to draw a line in the sand.
Sitting him for an inordinate amount of time before throwing him in the lineup bc we finally drew a LHP is absolutely a more egregious managerial "set him up to fail."
Sitting him for an inordinate amount of time before throwing him in the lineup bc we finally drew a LHP is absolutely a more egregious managerial "set him up to fail."
So y'all want Brock Holt starting in LF every game?
Because that isn't really working out amazing in terms of production.
Because that isn't really working out amazing in terms of production.
What about starting him against a RHP with two lefties on the docket for the next two days? If the goal with the 4th OF was to play him fairly consistently, they should've gone after someone with a less-flawed skillset and not a guy whose entire resume screams "weak side of a platoon", or perhaps just left Castillo up to get his needed reps at the major-league level and give Brock the rest everyone deems he requires.
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Well thats another discussion altogether.
Next two games are Tanaka and Pineda, fwiw.
If this were an occasional issue OR if he weren't so horrible against RHP, I don't think that anyone would be making a stink. This isn't about NEVER facing righties, but about limiting his exposure. The problem is that he has MORE ABs against RHP than LHP, and is striking out in almost 60% of those ABs (SSS applies). It makes him seem like a terrible roster fit for the relatively large amount of money he was given.
He should be used, in theory, every time a lefty starts, AND whenever opposing teams bring in lefty relievers to face our LHH, but the problem is the only guy we have from that side of the plate who is good enough to demand a specialty pitcher is Ortiz, who isn't going to get benched for Young, like ever. If we just wanted to keep guys fresh by using something closer to a 4-man rotation in the OF, then someone who doesn't have such pronounced splits should be up. The problem that people have, is that the only way to justify his presence in the off-season (when we already had Rusney) seemed to be that he had one thing he was amazing at, and now we aren't using him in the way that maximizes that one skill.
In theory, at least. Obviously, if he had performed decently against RHP to this point we wouldn't care about the strategy of his usage pattern, but given that he is essentially an A-ball level prospect out there, it's hard to swallow.
He should be used, in theory, every time a lefty starts, AND whenever opposing teams bring in lefty relievers to face our LHH, but the problem is the only guy we have from that side of the plate who is good enough to demand a specialty pitcher is Ortiz, who isn't going to get benched for Young, like ever. If we just wanted to keep guys fresh by using something closer to a 4-man rotation in the OF, then someone who doesn't have such pronounced splits should be up. The problem that people have, is that the only way to justify his presence in the off-season (when we already had Rusney) seemed to be that he had one thing he was amazing at, and now we aren't using him in the way that maximizes that one skill.
In theory, at least. Obviously, if he had performed decently against RHP to this point we wouldn't care about the strategy of his usage pattern, but given that he is essentially an A-ball level prospect out there, it's hard to swallow.
This is correct.
Holt can't play every day. Young is the backup outfielder. The Sox have faced two lefty starters all season so far. So Farrell has to pick his spots and work with the lineup he was given.
This is a ridiculous discussion for a thread that has basically become a game thread on the main board.
On the 17th Young started against Aaron Sanchez with J.A. Happ and Drew Smyly (two pitchers he would be genuinely useful against,) going the next two days. People wanted an example of mismanagement of Young beyond today, there it is. By all means though, E5 and JtB, continue to misinterpret the language and bring more unnecessary snark.
Now there's the argument he needs to see RHP to stay fresh, which I don't buy, either. Put this in the game thread: up until today, in 2016, Young is at .222/.364/.444 for an .808 OPS with 2BB/2K against LHP, .143/.143/.214 for a robust .357 OPS with 0BB/8K against RHP. Sure seems to me like he remembers just fine how to approach and hit lefties in a small sample size of sporadic play.
If the goal is to keep Brock fresh, bring Castillo back up. The way the OF is being utilized at the moment is suboptimal.
Now there's the argument he needs to see RHP to stay fresh, which I don't buy, either. Put this in the game thread: up until today, in 2016, Young is at .222/.364/.444 for an .808 OPS with 2BB/2K against LHP, .143/.143/.214 for a robust .357 OPS with 0BB/8K against RHP. Sure seems to me like he remembers just fine how to approach and hit lefties in a small sample size of sporadic play.
If the goal is to keep Brock fresh, bring Castillo back up. The way the OF is being utilized at the moment is suboptimal.
What the hell were you talking about?
If that were the case, I'd agree. If this was CY's 4th straight start against a RHP, I'd agree with you.
But this--this is approaching silliness. Its SOP in a long season for a player in his role.
Yeah. Exactly. Because he's been given ABs in less than perfect matchups here and there, keeping him fresh.
Also, I'm snarking you? Sorry? You seem really aggro over whats pretty common practice over a long season. It isnt that big a deal. The offense is cruising.
You can't quantify anything about that first statement, and if you don't think this is turning into a generic pile of bullshit snark posts, I suggest you take a look at E5.
Boys, boys. I know I'm new here, and my parliamentary procedure is murky (and my copy of Robert's Rules is dusty) but can this be tabled until we face 3 LHP in a row next week?
So what about my first statement is not quantifiable where yours from what I've quoted you on is?
And you earned that one from E5, it was funny. Lighten up a lil.
Well, I posted actual numbers explaining his performance and examples of bad utilization of him, where you're clinging to "but Brock can't start every day!" and "Young is only hitting lefties because he's fresh from facing RHP!" with zero justifications behind them, so...all of it?
Believe he's referring to Young getting the start 4/17 vs a righty (Aaron Sanchez) when they faced 2 lefties in a row after that in Happ and Smyly.
I never said Brock Holt can't start every day. I mean of course he wouldnt but that was never my reasoning.
Yes, you posted numbers and gave an analysis of those numbers that doesnt really make sense. My analysis of those numbers makes more sense- hes arrived at that SSS of slash lines through semi-regular play and not languishing on the bench.
Sometimes, AD, you need to look past strict dogma in life. Yes, CY is awful against RHP. No, starting him once on occasion with a long game in mind is not "fucking laughable." In fact, thats the problem with your argument. If you simply were a bit down on it as an idea, itd be a "reasonable minds" moment. Youre like, frothing at the mouth.
This is the great baseball mind repping the dot com, btw? Yikes!
Thanks, just saw that which I missed in the flow of the discussion. I agree, thats probably not the time to play him, but it isn't really the end if the world. He's (edit- JF) in the clubhouse, knows who can go on a given day, who needs a blow, etc. If it becomes a trend we probably have a bit of an issue.
We're still playing the Braves tonight, right? The worst team in baseball and a member of the NL? Can we hold off on the indignation until he gets a start against the Yankees righties this weekend, or gets left on the bench against Chicago LHP next week?
The numbers make perfect sense, especially given the sample size of his entire career. You're working on an assumption, and I'm the one making posts that you're implying are bad for baseball analysis?
Young is being misutilized. This is the second time so far in a very short season. That is a fact, not an opinion. Again, if the rationale behind the move is "Brock needs a breather", then Young is the wrong man for the job.
It's one start. As noted, Young will get his at bats against lefty starters next week. Over a 162 game season, there will be days with a suboptimal lineup. Every MLB manager does this.
We have Farrell's quotes around the 2 LHP starts last time. Something obviously changed.
Young had 12 more at-bats vs. RHP than LHP last year. Yes, he was bad vs. RHP, but he managed to hit exactly 7 HR vs. both - maybe Farrell just wanted him to get some good, power cuts in. After all...
So we don't need to buy the argument. We just have to agree that it WAS the argument and the rationale.John Farrell said:
Young had 12 more at-bats vs. RHP than LHP last year. Yes, he was bad vs. RHP, but he managed to hit exactly 7 HR vs. both - maybe Farrell just wanted him to get some good, power cuts in. After all...
John Farrell said:
You guys are completely missing the point of Young getting starts. He's our 4th and only backup OF since Rusney was sent down (remember how many here wanted him sent down?). Over the course of 162 games your 4th OF job is to give sporadic rests to one of the starters. This is managed based off the 3 starting OF workload.....not the 4th OF matchups. It's a big picture story not every game being a Game 7.
The numbers make sense if this was a 7 game season, but absolutely zero in a 162 game season.
Also consider this factor that goes beyond the numbers:
We have 4 outfielders, counting Holt who will also be called upon for infield duty.
There is literally no way to exploit Holt's versatility without putting Young in the game, and situations will crop up where we need to use Holt in another position while a pitcher who throws the ball with his right hand is facing our team. It will happen, it can't be avoided when the dude is literally our only backup outfielder. There will also be situations where Holt, who isn't really used to backup duty, is going to need rest, and coming off an oh-fer against the freaking Braves, I'd say that qualifies as one of those.
These are standard boilerplate duties of the 4th OF, to spel a starter that needs rest and play when a starter is needed elsewhere. If they expose Young to RHP, that's the price you pay for Young being your 4th OF.
Yes you need to load Young's exposure in favor of lefties where possible. No, it's not sufficiently important to put Young in against only lefties that it's worth ignoring Holt's needs and the needs of the other outfielders to accomplish this.
Also consider this factor that goes beyond the numbers:
We have 4 outfielders, counting Holt who will also be called upon for infield duty.
There is literally no way to exploit Holt's versatility without putting Young in the game, and situations will crop up where we need to use Holt in another position while a pitcher who throws the ball with his right hand is facing our team. It will happen, it can't be avoided when the dude is literally our only backup outfielder. There will also be situations where Holt, who isn't really used to backup duty, is going to need rest, and coming off an oh-fer against the freaking Braves, I'd say that qualifies as one of those.
These are standard boilerplate duties of the 4th OF, to spel a starter that needs rest and play when a starter is needed elsewhere. If they expose Young to RHP, that's the price you pay for Young being your 4th OF.
Yes you need to load Young's exposure in favor of lefties where possible. No, it's not sufficiently important to put Young in against only lefties that it's worth ignoring Holt's needs and the needs of the other outfielders to accomplish this.
I see that point, but that's not the only thing at play as TPNJ posted above. Farrell saying things like "he needs to get ABs against righties to get that production against lefties" is worrisome and goes against the "it's just a day of rest" theory. Him getting starts against RHP will add up over the course of the season, and I don't believe that utilization is what DD envisioned when he signed him. If our OFs need regular rest this early in the season, Castillo should be that guy. There's a mutual benefit to getting him the playing time and not Young in terrible matchups.
Only if you think things can only have one reason to happen. Most kids' brains grow past that stage of reasoning at around 11 years old or so.
It's not fact. It's opinion, and it's a really small minority opinion at that. And are you really incapable of thinking there are other reasons involved? Like they want to get Castillo regular playing time?
This is a really weird thing to be so insistent about. It's kinda nuts.
Just to clear up some misconceptions about Young's utilization last year by NY/Girardi, I'm pretty sure he only played him against righties when injuries forced him to (and also he was the defensive caddy for the statue formerly known as Carlos Beltran).
Also, while he did have seven HRs against both lefties and righties, two of the HRs against righties were against position players pitching in blowouts, Josh Wilson on June 20 and Jonny Gomes on August 28. If you drop those out, his dreadful .585 OPS against RHP obviously sinks even further.
Also, while he did have seven HRs against both lefties and righties, two of the HRs against righties were against position players pitching in blowouts, Josh Wilson on June 20 and Jonny Gomes on August 28. If you drop those out, his dreadful .585 OPS against RHP obviously sinks even further.
When Castillo getting playing time is more important than the major league team getting favorable matchups in winnable games, no, it isn't nuts at all.
Young was not signed to be a "once or maybe twice a week" 4th OF and he should never be utilized as one. He is one of the worst hitters in MLB against RHP and becoming annoyed at the insistence of his inclusion against them is insane? Guess I'm insane, then.
Young has a career OPS against RHP of .702, and that's notwithstanding his bad year last year. His tOPS+ career against righties is 89, so it's not like he's been completely hapless against them. Was last year a small sample size or the new normal? Nobody here knows. But it's not like Holt is Ted Williams (yet). His career OPS from both sides of the plate -- and he gets to face his off handed pitcher far more often than a RHB -- is .707. So, the drop off of putting Young in there from time to time against righties is not like some chasm making it a terrible experiment to see how he does against righties and lefties. Plus, he's a plus defender. Better than Holt at left? Hard to know how to read the numbers on fangraphs, so I'm really not sure, but he at least has a reputation as being a solid glove.
And even if he is saved only for starts against against lefties, he's a right handed bottom of the order hitter. In any start, maybe he gets 2 or 3 at bats before getting into the bullpen, so he's still going to have to hit against righties even in those starts (or you'll have to burn your bench spot to pinch hit and arguably downgrade your defense).
And even if he is saved only for starts against against lefties, he's a right handed bottom of the order hitter. In any start, maybe he gets 2 or 3 at bats before getting into the bullpen, so he's still going to have to hit against righties even in those starts (or you'll have to burn your bench spot to pinch hit and arguably downgrade your defense).
Not really adding to the discussion, yeah?
Sorry, sometimes the real world means you have to use things in unideal situations.
You might want to back away from the discussion unless you actually have something to add.
I suggest you take a holiday from posting for a couple of days. You have added nothing to this discussion. And some of your posts in other threads on the main board fall in to the same category.