Manning Legacy: Scrotal Recall
- Thread starter GeorgeCostanza
- Start date
My firm belief is that most of Ari's rep came from one singular ability--when required, he could construct unbelievably long run-on sentences that delayed and hid the action verbs, all paced and delivered in such a way that most reporters eyes were completely glazed over before he was halfway finished. By the time they could snap to and parse his sentence the news conference was on to other things.
That skill, impressive and maddening as it was and probably still is, doesn't apply here. So I'm not expecting some kind of PR jujitsu to suddenly emerge from him--he's probably just floundering along as best he can.
That skill, impressive and maddening as it was and probably still is, doesn't apply here. So I'm not expecting some kind of PR jujitsu to suddenly emerge from him--he's probably just floundering along as best he can.
So what we know so far...
1. Peyton Manning was doing business with some sketchy characters.
2. Peyton Manning was trying to recover from a potentially career-threatening injury.
3. Ashley Manning was receiving shipments of HGH to her home from said sketchy characters, at the time Peyton Manning was trying to recover from a potentially career-threatening injury.
4. Peyton Manning recovers and subsequently has the best season any QB in NFL history has ever had.
5. AlJeez decides to snoop around and finds a guy, Sly, willing to talk about what was going on, and the Mannings, among others, are implicated.
6. Manning's people go to the Guyer Institute and go through their records.
7. Manning's people pose as law enforcement and go visit Sly and Sly's family.
9. The next day Sly recants everything, even though he's not sure what "everything" is.
None of this PROVES Peyton Manning was taking HGH. But there is WAY more here than in deflategate. Way more. By way of comparison, in deflategate:
1. Tom Brady was not involved with any sketchy characters, just two regular employees of the team.
2. Tom Brady, it was made clear, wanted footballs at 12.5 psi.
3. On game day, one of the employees stopped to use the bathroom before heading out to the field with the footballs.
4. The Colts and Ravens whined to the NFL about the Patriots after getting beaten by them in the playoffs.
5. The NFL, having no idea whatsoever about the Ideal Gas Law, find that, on a cold day, the Patriots' footballs are - gasp - now below 12.5.
6. A random text 9 months before the AFCCG between the two regular employees of the team reveal the word "deflator".
6. Under oath, Tom Brady denies any shenanigans of any kind.
7. Ted Wells, the investigator, says that Tom Brady doesn't need to hand over his cell phone, yet when he doesn't, the commissioner uses that as evidence against him.
8. The footballs in the AFCCG were right where the Ideal Gas Law says they should have been, given the conditions.
9. The NFL leaked information to Chris Mortensen that was knowingly false, and was damaging to the Patriots. And never once corrected it. Moreover, when they gave the Patriots the correct numbers, it was on the condition that the Patriots not release that information.
10. Reports confirm that the NFL was under pressure from other league owners who wanted the Patriots punished more for spygate back in 2007.
And for THAT, the NFL took two draft picks (including a 1st rounder) away from the Patriots, fined the team $1 million, and suspended Tom Brady 4 games (at a personal cost of nearly $2 million), and is currently in court trying to make that suspension stick.
These are all known facts, correct? The conclusion: Tom Brady is the cheater and Peyton Manning is the victim.
What on EARTH is going on in this world?
1. Peyton Manning was doing business with some sketchy characters.
2. Peyton Manning was trying to recover from a potentially career-threatening injury.
3. Ashley Manning was receiving shipments of HGH to her home from said sketchy characters, at the time Peyton Manning was trying to recover from a potentially career-threatening injury.
4. Peyton Manning recovers and subsequently has the best season any QB in NFL history has ever had.
5. AlJeez decides to snoop around and finds a guy, Sly, willing to talk about what was going on, and the Mannings, among others, are implicated.
6. Manning's people go to the Guyer Institute and go through their records.
7. Manning's people pose as law enforcement and go visit Sly and Sly's family.
9. The next day Sly recants everything, even though he's not sure what "everything" is.
None of this PROVES Peyton Manning was taking HGH. But there is WAY more here than in deflategate. Way more. By way of comparison, in deflategate:
1. Tom Brady was not involved with any sketchy characters, just two regular employees of the team.
2. Tom Brady, it was made clear, wanted footballs at 12.5 psi.
3. On game day, one of the employees stopped to use the bathroom before heading out to the field with the footballs.
4. The Colts and Ravens whined to the NFL about the Patriots after getting beaten by them in the playoffs.
5. The NFL, having no idea whatsoever about the Ideal Gas Law, find that, on a cold day, the Patriots' footballs are - gasp - now below 12.5.
6. A random text 9 months before the AFCCG between the two regular employees of the team reveal the word "deflator".
6. Under oath, Tom Brady denies any shenanigans of any kind.
7. Ted Wells, the investigator, says that Tom Brady doesn't need to hand over his cell phone, yet when he doesn't, the commissioner uses that as evidence against him.
8. The footballs in the AFCCG were right where the Ideal Gas Law says they should have been, given the conditions.
9. The NFL leaked information to Chris Mortensen that was knowingly false, and was damaging to the Patriots. And never once corrected it. Moreover, when they gave the Patriots the correct numbers, it was on the condition that the Patriots not release that information.
10. Reports confirm that the NFL was under pressure from other league owners who wanted the Patriots punished more for spygate back in 2007.
And for THAT, the NFL took two draft picks (including a 1st rounder) away from the Patriots, fined the team $1 million, and suspended Tom Brady 4 games (at a personal cost of nearly $2 million), and is currently in court trying to make that suspension stick.
These are all known facts, correct? The conclusion: Tom Brady is the cheater and Peyton Manning is the victim.
What on EARTH is going on in this world?
I actually think it's unlikely that there was a payoff. Sly had every reason - for his own interests - to recant. If the goons informed his parents that "Charlie admitted on tape to doing something illegal that could send him to prison for several years", it wouldn't take very much coaxing to get him to take evasive actions. The fact that those actions were also in the interests of Peyton Manning doesn't mean that he bought them.
There's enough to raise eyebrows here over, that has been reported by reputable sources, that we don't need to go inventing things in our heads that would be even worse and talking about how they're "pretty likely".
Just a slight copy edit. The few people I've convinced about Brady's innocence, I've done so by pointing out that they all use terms and inside jokes from their own industry way more than other people would. People in healthcare make healthcare references, people in finance talk about the ROI of their gym memberships, yadda yadda...
Fleischer's main qualification for this job is that he has a track record of effectively perpetuating half truths and misinformation in an environment that is inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to his client. Bush wasn't nearly as popular as Manning is, but both situations share a strong disincentive to get at the truth.
If the job is to simply ruin the accusers and delay the truth coming out until Manning retires, I'd say Fleischer is the perfect guy for the job. If it's to prove Manning's innocence or prevent the truth from ever seeing the light of day, I'd say Fleischer's track record doesn't bode nearly as well.
No, nothing to see here:
This lovely guy is one of the Dons that wanted to sell drugs while Corleone didn't, resulting in Corleone getting shot in front of his coward son Fredo. Will it take five families of this ilk to bring Peyton down?
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
BB was hired by Manning to scare Sly??!?
Jesus.
Peyton is Lorne Malvo.
Deadspin has the 911 call from Sly's 14 year old sister.
http://deadspin.com/here-is-the-911-call-made-from-charles-slys-home-when-p-1757319833
http://deadspin.com/here-is-the-911-call-made-from-charles-slys-home-when-p-1757319833
Except, from my perspective and hopefully from anyone paying attention, it is an absolute tell. Basically, if Ari Fleischer is involved you can count on some bullshit.
They'd probably need Sly's parents to cooperate. Without testimony, there wouldn't be a lot of evidence.
Who knows if they actually did. Sly's teenage sister made the 911 call. They may have said something like "we're investigators here to talk to Charles Sly," which she perceived as their claiming to be law enforcement. I'm guessing that most people would not immediately make that distinction, but that doesn't mean the PIs were doing anything illegal.
This. I would think that the PIs know *exactly* where the leave the impression/impersonation line is and go right to the edge, because crossing it buys a shitload of trouble.
But really, who would be intimidated by a private investigator:
Right. I work with PIs occasionally. No PI is going to tell a subject, "Hey, I'm a private investigator and you don't have to talk to me, but please let me in your house to ask you a bunch of uncomfortable questions!" Their job is to obtain information. So long as they don't affirmatively misrepresent themselves as law enforcement, they're not breaking the law.
Worth repeating. Very easy for anti-Peyton folks to start speculating about something even worse than what the facts show, just like it was easy last year for anti-Patriots folks to come up with their own speculative garbage that went way beyond what was known at the time. Let's not make the same mistakes.
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2016/02/i_hate_peyton_manning_why_doesn_t_everybody_else.html
This is a good and somewhat funny, somewhat insight article about why Peyton gets the benefit of the doubt and how damn annoying that is. I hadn't thought too in depth about it, but I think he's right - the truly favored athletes are either the truly transcendent like Jordan (or maybe just Jordan, because Pedro wasn't that universally beloved and neither is Crosby, etc.), or white guys without obvious physical gifts who work hard like Steve Nash or Peyton Manning. Brady is excluded because he's really, really ridiculously good looking.
This is a good and somewhat funny, somewhat insight article about why Peyton gets the benefit of the doubt and how damn annoying that is. I hadn't thought too in depth about it, but I think he's right - the truly favored athletes are either the truly transcendent like Jordan (or maybe just Jordan, because Pedro wasn't that universally beloved and neither is Crosby, etc.), or white guys without obvious physical gifts who work hard like Steve Nash or Peyton Manning. Brady is excluded because he's really, really ridiculously good looking.
Don't worry: Ace investigative reporter TJQuinn is on the case for ESPN
Charlie Sly, responding to a report in The Washington Post that said Peyton Manning's lawyers sent investigators to his home before the release of an Al-Jazeera America documentary in December, says he didn't believe investigators were there to intimidate him into cooperation.
Speaking to Outside The Lines on Thursday night about the investigators, Sly said: "Those guys were great guys. Like, very good guys. Very professional."
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14720905/charlie-sly-says-private-investigators-hired-peyton-manning-law-firm-were-not-there-intimidate
Charlie Sly, responding to a report in The Washington Post that said Peyton Manning's lawyers sent investigators to his home before the release of an Al-Jazeera America documentary in December, says he didn't believe investigators were there to intimidate him into cooperation.
Speaking to Outside The Lines on Thursday night about the investigators, Sly said: "Those guys were great guys. Like, very good guys. Very professional."
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14720905/charlie-sly-says-private-investigators-hired-peyton-manning-law-firm-were-not-there-intimidate
BRRRRAAANNNGGGGG.
It's the false equivalence alarm! Everybody run!
The entire issue is that, this year, it's 50 dudes on a Red Sox website and one or two newspaper reporters (or at least, it sure seems that way) connecting dotted lines. last year, it was fucking CBS, NBC, USA Today, CNN, the New York Times, ESPN and a host of others "speculating about something even worse than what the facts show", which 90% of the American public then took as gospel.
What we, here, at SoSH, do and say means precisely dog shit. We don't have to be "be careful" about anything, because nobody's reputations or livelihoods are going to get fucked in the process.
Again, that could be her translation of something they said that was true, but not transparent.
And I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility that they lied. But I'm convinced they did.
As to your original point, I'm guessing no prosecutor in the Indy area will be eager to get involved in this case. Not a great career move in a state in which Manning is a semi deity.
That said, Sly admitted to multiple felonies on tape. So he'll be circling the wagons with Manning and whomever else he hopes will clam up/deny in self-protection. (In fact, even if he did lie about all the pro-athletes, he's trying to sell the undercover athlete illegal drugs.) So he's pretty screwed.
FWIW, the "recantation" by Sly isn't some sort of a magic bullet for him. It's actually more or less useless logically and legally. His documentary statements have been corroborated by multiple independent sources; he can't say A, B, C, D, E, then turn around and claim he made everything up. Especially, when A, B, and C (thus far) have proven to be true. All is shows is that he's willing to lie after the fact.
So, I think there's pretty much zero chance the Sly family actually tries to press this PI saying they're LEOs issue, and a very large chance that if questioned, they'll say everyone was "mistaken." The local D.A. won't do anything about such a marginal issue.
Edit - which is to say the real story here isn't that Manning tried some sort of shakedown (which is possible) but, in conjunction with that or no, Manning had his people coordinate with Sly, prior to Sly reading his recorded statement for damage control/PR purposes. Which smells very strongly of criminal conspiracy/tampering with a witness.
Edit 2 - I'm also near certain that Sly gives not a shit about the effect all this has on Manning, et. al. Sly knows he won't be hired by anyone in his field. He also knows that he's facing a world of hurt in possible criminal charges (however he may have rationalized his defense/innocence.) So of course he'd have said anything that the PIs suggested "might be helpful" to himself. Don't underestimate the amount of leverage that Sly's venerable to.
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Agreed.
Also, what we know to be factually true without speculation is pretty wild. Something with shipped to Manning's house under his wife's name. Manning was going to a sketchy clinic. Manning was saying (in a carefully orchestrated series of interviews done with the help of a former white house freaking spokesman) that the report was made up garbage but his team is now admitting that most of their factual reporting about Peyton is true. Manning had private eyes visiting people at their homes.
EDIT: I'm also going to give Manning some credit here. When he found out shit was about to hit the fan he (or he and his team of advisers) went thermonuclear. This is about a million times better than Brady who took months before he got a badass lawyer (one who wouldn't have him destory his phone) and who I'm guessing based on how he handled the press didn't get a media consultant/PR guy for a while
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One interesting aspect is whether his wife has potential criminal liability. Maybe that's what the PI's and the lawyer reviewing medical records were actually concerned about.
RR--what do you think about that?
It can't be repeated enough. The idea that an NFL player would be living in the same household as a family member receiving HGH or steroids (for legitimate reasons) and not provide some sort of notice to the league looks extremely unlikely.
I'd be willing to wager that the mis-steps in how Brady and Yee handled things initially served as a teachable moment for Manning. Peyton's team also had the advantage of it being a media outlet, and not the league itself, making the charge.
Quite true. Deflategate shows that if you're in the Brady/Armstrong/Manning/Jordan/Jeter/Woods class with a brand name worth tens or hundreds of millions of dollars you absolutely need to get elite representation when something comes along that can ruin your reputation.
Love this post.
The dysfunction around this league and the fans has reached a strange, irrational level. People hold on to emotions (Brady is a douche, the Pats are cheaters, The Sheriff is a hero, etc.) rather than facts; rather than digest the actual facts of #DFG they'd rather double down on the lies which prop up their emotional belief system. I guess you could say the same about politics and a bunch of other aspects of current post-modern life. Fanboyism is dangerous.
The entire idea of Sly recanting does nothing but raise the eternal question: When was he lying ... in the report, or now? Quinn's water-carrying report above doesn't address the issue, and we can't expect anyone covering this on a national level to go into it either. In this sense, Sly has become both Brian McNamee and Greg Anderson.
If Peyton retires, this story goes away.
If Peyton retires, this story goes away.
You don't think it has more to do with one party being innocent and the other guilty? Learning from Brady's Deflategate gets us to lawyering up and hiring a good PR firm. It doesn't get us to collusion and / or intimidation.
Devil's in the details. The first issue is what exactly was shipped. Unlike steroids, HGH isn't a controlled substance per se. But it is federally regulated:
Offhand, I don't know if Ashley Manning could be charged under this - unless she planned to distribute the HGH to her husband.
The next issue is where Manning got the shipments. Some states list HGH as a controlled substance under state law, and some do not. (FL does not.)
Lastly, if we're talking about steroids or something like HGC, the analysis changes - there's much more liability there, both federally and locally.
Sly admitted to sending different sorts of performance enhancing drugs all over the country. So he's in a much sticker situation.
Of course not, but we're all free to draw conclusions from people's actions and other circumstantial evidence or lack thereof. I used the word "think" purposely.
Then the answer to your first question is the same. I don't think it has anything to do with "one party being innocent and the other guilty" because there's no way to definitively state the guilt or innocence of either. They could both be innocent, both guilty, or one of each. So that doesn't play into my thinking at all.
The second part of your statement -- "Learning from Brady's Deflategate gets us to lawyering up and hiring a good PR firm. It doesn't get us to collusion and / or intimidation." -- also brings up opinions that aren't proven. There's no proof of "collusion and/or intimidation."
If you want to draw a conclusion from conjecture and circumstantial evidence, go right ahead. I just don't think that's the way to go in cases such as these
So you have no opinion on the guilt or innocence of Tom Brady? I don't believe I've ever heard someone say that.
I'm not so sure it does--Manning's legal/PR team is being very aggressive but that's a reasonable strategy for either complete innocence-he's never taken a drug and his wife took HGH or something without his knowledge and know nobody would believe the truth--or complete guilt.
Yeah, that reminds me of all those hot takes about "OMG Brady talked to Jastremski the day after the game! He must have been orchestrating a cover-up" from last year. It was BS last year and is BS this year -- he would talk to the same people and do the same thing whether or not he's guilty.
Brady not lawyering up and hiring a PR flack right away while Peyton did is much more a reflection of the severity of the "crime" than competence in handling their situations. Brady had zero reason to think a couple tweets about air pressure would blow up (pun intended) and get to the point of a suspension. PEDs and accusations involving such is a much more understandable and well-tread minefield necessitating big-time firepower.
Do I have an opinion? Sure, I have an opinion: I think the charges are trumped up and the penalty, in particular, does not fit the alleged offense.
Do I know for a fact that Brady is guilty or innocent? Nope. Neither does anyone on this board.
But, to go back to your original goalposts, my opinion, or my belief, or what I think is immaterial in deciding whether Manning has done anything wrong.
I agree with this, and should have added it to my post about Manning learning from the Brady experience. That said, while the potential charges are worse, that doesn't preclude those around Peyton devising a strategy based on what they've seen brady (or others) go through in the past.
Brady took forever to get wise to the need to lawyer up and hire a PR flack, though. Right away, yeah, you can see how he might have dismissed it. But by the time of the Super Bowl, it was clear this was a big effin' deal, and while he was busy with game prep leading up to that, he should have handled things better after the Super Bowl.
No, you asked me whether the optics of Manning sending PIs to Sly's house would be an indicator that he is guilty, while Brady is not. And there's no way to tell that.