Several of their better lineups featured both Cousins and Cauley-Stein. Cayley-Steins defensive flexibility and Cousins' ability to space the floor don't preclude them from playing together.
Your preferred Celtic target at #3
- Thread starter In my lifetime
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In one of Joeger's first interviews, he was asked by Grant Napear, longtime voice of the Kings' and afternoon talk show host, what he thought of the roster. The first name he discussed was WCS; Boogie was third, described as a matchup nightmare, after Joerger lauded Gay's scoring ability.
Now going back to my days in academics as a Kremlin watcher, and Napear's editorializing that Cousins is on his last chance with the Kings, your last line is probably the most relevant. It would allow Joerger to run a fast- paced attack with a stretch four and a playmaker, and WCS as the paint protector and fast break trailer. So, Dunn and Crowder, future picks?
I can definitely see them moving on from Cousins, but right now Jeannie Buss is demanding that the Lakers go all in on a vet all star, so I think they're the early favorites for the Boogieman as they have more present value to trade. But like I said way back at the start, if the Kings want to move Boogie I'm OK with Boston bidding on him instead.
I think some guys that could be realistically be available for a package involving the #3, are Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward, Paul Millsap and Marc Gasol, of course dependent if their current teams decide to blow it up(in the last two cases, if they don't think they'll retain Horford/Conley)
I wouldn't be shocked if either Paul George or James Harden hit the market either because their GMs are aggressive, but longshots.
I get that people think the #3 isn't valuable because there is a dropoff after the top 2, but if a team is looking to blow it up and move a good veteran player, draft picks are usually the best currency and #3 is very likely the best pick available, future picks included(I think the Lakers will pick and not trade). For #3 to not be the best, or at least close to the best, asset available in a trade it would have to be a near perfect situation where the acquiring team would've had to have drafted a player within the last year or two the trading team likes more than anyone they could draft at #3. And like him enough more than #3 to be willing to give up years of cost-control. And the acquiring team would probably have to think the veteran makes them a contender. Wouldn't quite be threading a needle, but in the ballpark.
If any good veteran gets shopped, I'd still bet the Celtics would be one of the first phone calls the unloading team makes.
Unless getting one of those guys convinces Durant to come here, (and it almost certainly won't) what's the point? None of those guys makes Boston better than Cleveland. They're all very good players, but they're not bringing a championship. I'd rather keep the #3. History says that at least one player picked #3 or better is going to turn out to have a better career than Simmons and/or Ingram. I trust Danny to figure out who that guy is going to be.
If you're only willing to make deals that instantly make you better than one of the top 3-4 teams in the league, you'll spend a lot of years building, and re-building and re-building again.
If you'd prefer to keep #3 instead of making a deal, that's fine and maybe even preferable. But I think ruling out making a deal because it doesn't make you the best team in the conference feels a bit rigid.
I still believe Dunn will end up the second or third best player in this draft depending on what Simmons ultimate deal is. But I also can't get too excited about that because it's a very weak draft. I like Murray but he's pretty far away. Hopefully they can trade it.
Ordinarily, yes. But in this case if Boston stands pat, they're going to have a very good chance at a top 3 pick for three consecutive drafts. And they'll be adding those players to a team which is already pretty good. That should put them among the top 3-4 teams in the league for quite a long while starting in about 2019 or 2020 or so.
So why give that up for anything less than being one of the top 3-4 teams right now?
Because being the 5th or 6th best team in the league is pretty cool too, and you'll still have that very good chance at having a top 3 pick in the next two drafts?
It's not like a trade would make the Celtics Brooklyn, where they'd be mortgaging their future to add post-prime players to their team. You'd be looking to add an in his prime player who can contribute now and for years down the line, and still retain a lot of assets. I don't think anyone is advocating trading for a rental or short-term solution.
Now is a pretty good time to strike if they're going to accelerate the program. Their best players are in their prime(besides Smart who's pre-prime) and their core guys are locked up to under market contracts. If you want to wait for a teenager at #3 to develop enough to help, some or most of your core will be headed out of their prime and/or have to be re-signed to bigger contracts leaving you less opportunity to add to them.
Again, not saying you're wrong for wanting to hold the pick, I would too if the right deal isn't available, just think only being willing to make a deal if it instantly makes you elite might leave you waiting a long time to contend.
Hield I just don't get the love. He's old for a rookie, he can't play point, can't distribute and can't play defense, not a rebounder.... Sign me up! You really have to try to do better than a (old) shooter who offers little else at 3rd pick surely?
Maybe he'll surprise with coaching, he did improve at college. But if I had that pick I'd have no interest in Hield.
Maybe he'll surprise with coaching, he did improve at college. But if I had that pick I'd have no interest in Hield.
I don't think Hield is really under consideration for #3. I think he would be a possibility if we trade down into the 6-8 range. Bender seems like the guy at #3 if Ainge stays put.
I think that is the right move, but plenty of people excited about Hield, including in this thread, I don't really get it.
With the Nuggets and Phoenix also having three first round picks it will be tough to have much leverage if teams want trade up. And if they want to move up they would want to offer two firsts possibly, but that wouldn't help the Celtics. Denver has 15(and 19) & 7 and Phoenix has 13(and 28) & 4. They haven't played their cards like Danny did last year though.
The C's would get more value out of facilitating a trade. Like Boogie to the Lakers. Would Vlade like to have the 2nd and 3rd pick of the draft?
If New Orleans or Sacto fall in love with a player they will be the teams to try to move up. But what do they have to offer that will entice the Cs to move out of three.
Would Danny take a swing on a player like Chriss if he thinks he has the most upside available instead of taking Dragan, Dunn, or Murray who are the consensus number three picks. Or maybe someone else rockets up the draft boards.
The C's would get more value out of facilitating a trade. Like Boogie to the Lakers. Would Vlade like to have the 2nd and 3rd pick of the draft?
If New Orleans or Sacto fall in love with a player they will be the teams to try to move up. But what do they have to offer that will entice the Cs to move out of three.
Would Danny take a swing on a player like Chriss if he thinks he has the most upside available instead of taking Dragan, Dunn, or Murray who are the consensus number three picks. Or maybe someone else rockets up the draft boards.
Why would they help the Lakers get Boogie? What's in it for them in the trade down to #8? It's not even like either team has unencumbered firsts to trade and it's not like you're getting Russell (because I expect the Kings would rather have Russell than any player at #3).
Why?
The 5'9" All Star guard on the Celtics is why.
Buss' job is on the line and the Celtics front office, and most front offices in the league, would be happy to help facilitate trades as long as they get something out of it. I'm not the first to mention this scenario. Danny is happy to help out others. Tyler Zeller, Marcus Thornton and Cleveland's 2016 first round pick turned into Isaiah Thomas because of Danny's willing to "help out" Cleveland.
No, that's my question, what in the name of god does Boston get out of it? I understand why LA would want #3 to add to #2 and Russell to land Cousins, but why does Boston get involved when the only available assets here are Ben McLemore and the eighth pick?
A bit of a fluff piece, but still a nice read about Bender, who might be the preferred Celtic target at 3.
http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/the-next-porzingis/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national
http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/the-next-porzingis/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national
I think the success of Porzingis is going to have some NBA execs giving the Euros a closer look. They had gone out of favor recently after some notable misses.
A less fluffy analysis of Bender from Kevin O'Conner http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/5/19/11711150/dragan-bender-nba-draft-2016-boston-celtics-phoenix-suns
He suggests that Bender's ceiling is a plus defender, that can switch pick and rolls, and be a Kukoc-like player on offense. If Ainge agrees and concludes that there is non-trivial possibility of him reaching that ceiling, then he seems like the pick, as those skills are especially valuable in the current NBA.
You know, that article by Andersen explains why Bender doesn't really seem to jump that high.
Why take the risk of shredding your knees when your brother had HIS knees ruined?
More and more I think they'll take Bender.
Why take the risk of shredding your knees when your brother had HIS knees ruined?
More and more I think they'll take Bender.
I did some digging to find some interesting guys who were listed with a (relatively) low vertical -- NBA.com doesn't track combine numbers before 2000, so Nowitzki and Kukoc aren't available. But here's a handful of guys with < 29" vertical:
Brendan Haywood
Smush Parker (!)
Demarcus Cousins
Larry Sanders
Nicola Vucevik
Not a common occurrence but not exactly a death sentence. Just for reference you have guys like Gobert (29), Monroe (29), and our own Kelly Olynik (29.5) just above the threshold.
Brendan Haywood
Smush Parker (!)
Demarcus Cousins
Larry Sanders
Nicola Vucevik
Not a common occurrence but not exactly a death sentence. Just for reference you have guys like Gobert (29), Monroe (29), and our own Kelly Olynik (29.5) just above the threshold.
I'm with you 100% on this Hield analysis. "Maybe" the game at the next level can slow down enough for him to be a JJ Redick but there is no guarantee about that. Whoever the comp is between Wayne Ellington and Redick is where I'd rate Hield. People are assuming since Hield is a 4-year player that he'll be able to step in and contribute right away however there are so many other areas of the game he has to adjust to I'm not seeing it except being force fed minutes on a bad team. I've got him in the mid to high teens in my mock.
The difference with Bender is that he doesn't show any of the fluidity in his game that Porzingis did last year. Porzingis was a capable regular on his Euroleague team while lacking the physical strength which we knew would come in a couple of years thus having huge upside. Bender already had a solid physical presence yet can't even get backup minutes on his team and is another guy who, like Hield, could easily be a pick that his team regrets.
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Last years draft was top heavy especially my opinion at the time with my man-crush on Porzingis, Mudiay, and WCS. This year isn't top heavy but it is imo MUCH deeper once you get into the 20's and 30's........you're going to see more players seeing NBA minutes drafted outside the lottery in 2-3 years than any draft I can recall.
I've said it before, but this draft reminds me a lot of 2001. The star quality at the top may be light, but there are a lot of guys in that second round that are going to end up having ten year NBA careers.
Yeah, it sure feels that way. I don't remember liking anyone on the board other than Bobby Portis by the time the Celtics took Rozier at 16 whereas this year there's at least a dozen guys I'd be able to get excited about that'll be available at 23, and probably still a handful at 35.
If the Cs do draft Bender, and I think they will, the one on one battles between him and Olynyk will be legendary.
In fact, the Cs could run a lineup where KO and Bender are the twin PGs and Smart, Crowder, and Bradley can invert the offense . . . .
I think this is unfair to Bender, and lacking a lot of important context. I'm not taking anything away from Porzingis - and I think he was the more impressive prospect going into last year, but here are a few key caveats.
#1 - Bender was born in November 1997. So at the time of this draft he is going to be 18 and 7 months. Porzingis was born August 2, 1995 and was almost a year and a half older at the time of last year's draft. The much more analogous comparison would be when Porzingis was slated to be in the 2014 draft before he withdrew (and there was talk that the Celtics had made him a promise at 17).
#2 - I'm mystified where you're getting that Bender "already had a solid physical presence" in contrast to Porzingis. He's listed at 7'1, 225 and is very thin. Scouting report after scouting report talks about his need to bulk up and add physical strength because he gets pushed off the block constantly. This is borne out by the clips available on youtube and elsewhere. Porzingis was listed at 7'2/7'3, 230 last year and was also very thin. If there's a difference in how filled out Porzingis was last year vs. Bender this year, it's not an appreciable difference.
#3 - As I already noted, Porzingis in 2014-15 was a full 16 months older than Bender, and he played about 21 minutes a game between the domestic Spanish league (a league with the excellent Barcelona and Real Madrid) and the Eurocup competition (second-tier competition - analogous to UEFA Cup in soccer). Porzingis had a very nice season, averaging 11 points and 4.6 rebounds and was named Rising Star in the Eurocup competition. But it's important to note that Sevilla was a very ordinary team without a particularly illustrious history that was perhaps more open to playing their younger players. They did not even make the 16-team knockout stage in the second-tier Eurocup competition and finished 19-31 overall on the season.
Bender, on the other hand, plays at Maccabi Tel Aviv, a team usually at the top of the Israeli domestic league (not as good as the Spanish league, but still better than many European leagues), and has an impressive history. Maccabi beat Real Madrid for the Euroleague Championship two years ago in 2014 under David Blatt. This year, Maccabi went 24-9 in the Domestic League, but had a disappointing year internationally - going 4-6 in the Euroleague and failing to advance from the group stage - leading to transfer to the Eurocup. Maccabi then went 2-4 in the Eurocup and failed to advance to the knockout round. Regardless, Bender played for a better team. He played very little in the international competitions and didn't get off the bench in last night's first domestic playoff. In the domestic league schedule, he played more, averaging 13.7 minutes, 5.4 points and 2.7 boards per game. For point of reference, in 2013-14, Porzingis (still four months older at the time than Bender) played 14.9 minutes a game and averaged 6.7 points and 2.8 rebounds a game in the Spanish ACB. I certainly wish Bender played more, but let's not pretend it was some kind of huge difference from Porzingis at the same age.
Finally, I think Bender shows a lot of fluidity to his game. He runs the floor about as impressively as you'll ever see for a seven footer, he's a tremendous passer, and he's learning to put the ball on the floor. I'm not sure that he's the right choice, but I think the upside is enticing.
Maybe legendarily awful. Get out of here w drafting another soft unathletic big. No thank you.
If you're calling Bender "unathletic" you probably need to do a little more research.
With a 29 inch vert and being scared to jump? Never mind lets grab thar gazelle and marvel at how pathetic he and KO can be together!!!
There is less than 0 chance Danny drafts Dragen Bender. There is just no way. Sorry to upset the fanboys in here.
You've taken a really odd stance on this. There's not really too many Bender fanboys, just some folks pointing out some, uh, flaws in your reasoning.
But definitely continue with your "less than 0" and "fanboys" style of posting, because it's very constructive.
At 7'1 with equivalent wingspan, it is more important that a player be able to move his feet laterally than soar vertically. Bender's lateral movement gives him the ability to defend smaller players on switches (which would be especially important for a team like the Celtics that switches often).
I'm still thinking that the Celtics will trade the #3, and have no strong opinions on Bender beyond the clips that have already been posted, but vertical leap strikes me as one of the less important athletic characteristics of a tall player with plenty of reach. Mark Eaton couldn't really jump at all, but blocked plenty of shots without ever leaving the ground. As Red Auerbach and Frank Layden said, you can't teach height.
I'm still thinking that the Celtics will trade the #3, and have no strong opinions on Bender beyond the clips that have already been posted, but vertical leap strikes me as one of the less important athletic characteristics of a tall player with plenty of reach. Mark Eaton couldn't really jump at all, but blocked plenty of shots without ever leaving the ground. As Red Auerbach and Frank Layden said, you can't teach height.
This is my expectation, that Boston deals back into the 5-7 range for an extra lottery pick next year. I will also concur about vertical numbers being far less important than than the lane agility ones for big men. Every year quick bigs with poor ups show well defensively. Bobby Portis being last year's version. I haven't been overly impressed with Bender's mixtapes, but I always admit that I spend more time on NCAA hoops than is healthy, and always defer to others on the Euros.
I still want Jamal Murray, though.
The 5th, 6th and 7th picks belong to Minnesota, New Orleans and Denver. You're unlikely to get a top-10 pick next year from any of those three teams -- Minny and NO won't be in the bottom 10 next year (and their picks will absolutely be top-3 protected), and I can't see Denver trading a pick that isn't top-10 protected for the right to move up four spots.
If you're bearish on Bender, and not bullish on any of Murray/Dunn/Hield/Brown, then I think you're looking at trading down to 10-12 and picking Sabonis, Labissiere (if he falls that far), or Valentine. That's not a terribly intriguing prospect, as I don't think teams like Orlando, Milwaukee or Utah will be eager to mortgage the farm to trade up to pick Bender, so I'm hoping Danny likes one of the guys who's worthy of the 3rd pick.
I was listening to The Ringer's NBA Show podcast on the draft lottery, and they were very high on Marquee Chriss out of Washington. They called him a top 5 prospect, right now, and that he has a fair chance of being the best player in the draft. I get he's very athletic and has good size, and apparently a good shot, but they seem to be alone in rating him that high. If one of the options are to trade down, how far could they drop and still get him? And is he worth it?
I've never seen anything out of him other than online scouting reports and youtube videos, so I'm genuinely curious. They were gushing over him.
I've never seen anything out of him other than online scouting reports and youtube videos, so I'm genuinely curious. They were gushing over him.
The idea with Chriss is that he's sort of the prototypical modern PF that has both the quickness to hedge out on the perimeter plus the ups to swat away a lot of shots. He's really raw and a long term prospect. But he does have all the tools necessary to be the best player from this class if everything breaks right.
Rebounding is probably the skill that translates most directly from college to the NBA. Chriss's rebounding numbers at Washington were poor. This is probably the biggest knock on him, along with the fact that he'll be completely useless if his shot doesn't develop (whereas someone like Ellenson might crack a rotation as a more traditional 4 even if his shot doesn't improve). There has also been talk about attitude problems. But yeah, the upside is definitely there.
I haven't seen Chriss going higher than 10th in anyone's mock, so he's more of a trade-up target from #16 than a trade-down target.
I haven't seen Chriss going higher than 10th in anyone's mock, so he's more of a trade-up target from #16 than a trade-down target.
Lateral quickness. Vertical doesn't really translate to anything but jumping high.
An obvious example is Rudy Gobert who has the same vertical as Bender and is generally considered a terrific athletic defender.
Being a big Maccabi fan, I've watched Bender a lot this season and small parts of last season (in the Israeli 2nd league). Some background first:
Maccabi is going through its worst season in over 20 years, possibly all-time. There was a very early exit from the Euroleague, followed by poor performances in the Eurocup (Europe's 2nd league - UEFA cup style) and a quick exit there. Going 24-9 and finishing 2nd in the domestic league is actually a huge disappointment, this is a team that's won 50 Israeli championships and 5 European titles, most recently in 2014. There is a big budget difference between them and the rest of the Israeli league teams and they're expected to dominate. They lost the championship last year (for the 4th time in 8 seasons) to Hapoel Jerusalem and were expected to rebound, only to finish behind Jerusalem during the regular season.
So I feel this was a bad situation for Bender to be in to start with, in Maccabi you have to win basically every game or there is huge pressure. The coach couldn't afford to play a 18 year old who makes some young mistakes on the court (the coach was let go mid-season and even though the new coach was Tabak, a Croatian like Bender, he didn't get a long leash with him as well). He was really better off on loan starting for a mid-tier European team. When he did get some minutes mid-season he got sidelined with an injury for a few weeks, it was a tough break.
On the court, he was basically as advertised (the good and the bad). He's athletic, quick for his size, did a good job switching onto to guards and had the ability to stay with them. He has to improve his rebounding though and get a lot stronger as he was out-muscled constantly by big men. He was very similar to Olynyk in his first 2 seasons, getting called for fouls repeatedly for reaching and not putting his hands straight up (though you could see improvement towards the end of the season, I would bet someone was working with him on it). On offense, it's even harder to say as he really wasn't part of Maccabi's attack. He was mostly in the corner for catch and shoot 3's and he didn't get to the rim much. I didn't really see him pass/create much but I don't think he was really given the chance. He plays with a lot of energy, runs pretty well on the break and isn't afraid of anyone. His length got him blocks and rebounds even when he was beaten off the dribble or didn't box out.
While I don't think this season helped him develop his basketball skills enough, it probably helped toughen him up as he's had to deal with expectations and big roster turnover. Both Israeli fans and media will tell you he's been a big disappointment, the crowd even boo'd him (or at least the coach subbing him in) for no real reason. The Israeli media meanwhile might be worse than NY Media when it comes to Maccabi Tel Aviv here. There were big expectations with a "future Top 5 NBA Draft pick" and everyone seems to forget he's a kid that turned 18 during the season.
To sum up, I think Bender either needs to spend another season on another European team (I doubt he's in Maccabi's plans for next season as they're promising a "big, bounceback season") to get stronger and play more minutes, or he needs to come straight to the NBA where he will probably not play a lot during his first season but he can work on getting stronger and learn from the best. I do think he will be solid NBA player, as he's tough, a hard-worker and has all the physical tools. He's also a good fit in today's NBA with his ability to shoot and switch onto guards from the 4-5 positions. It's going to take at least 2-3 years before he can really contribute though.
As a Celtics fan, I'd go another route as I don't think he's a good fit.
Maccabi is going through its worst season in over 20 years, possibly all-time. There was a very early exit from the Euroleague, followed by poor performances in the Eurocup (Europe's 2nd league - UEFA cup style) and a quick exit there. Going 24-9 and finishing 2nd in the domestic league is actually a huge disappointment, this is a team that's won 50 Israeli championships and 5 European titles, most recently in 2014. There is a big budget difference between them and the rest of the Israeli league teams and they're expected to dominate. They lost the championship last year (for the 4th time in 8 seasons) to Hapoel Jerusalem and were expected to rebound, only to finish behind Jerusalem during the regular season.
So I feel this was a bad situation for Bender to be in to start with, in Maccabi you have to win basically every game or there is huge pressure. The coach couldn't afford to play a 18 year old who makes some young mistakes on the court (the coach was let go mid-season and even though the new coach was Tabak, a Croatian like Bender, he didn't get a long leash with him as well). He was really better off on loan starting for a mid-tier European team. When he did get some minutes mid-season he got sidelined with an injury for a few weeks, it was a tough break.
On the court, he was basically as advertised (the good and the bad). He's athletic, quick for his size, did a good job switching onto to guards and had the ability to stay with them. He has to improve his rebounding though and get a lot stronger as he was out-muscled constantly by big men. He was very similar to Olynyk in his first 2 seasons, getting called for fouls repeatedly for reaching and not putting his hands straight up (though you could see improvement towards the end of the season, I would bet someone was working with him on it). On offense, it's even harder to say as he really wasn't part of Maccabi's attack. He was mostly in the corner for catch and shoot 3's and he didn't get to the rim much. I didn't really see him pass/create much but I don't think he was really given the chance. He plays with a lot of energy, runs pretty well on the break and isn't afraid of anyone. His length got him blocks and rebounds even when he was beaten off the dribble or didn't box out.
While I don't think this season helped him develop his basketball skills enough, it probably helped toughen him up as he's had to deal with expectations and big roster turnover. Both Israeli fans and media will tell you he's been a big disappointment, the crowd even boo'd him (or at least the coach subbing him in) for no real reason. The Israeli media meanwhile might be worse than NY Media when it comes to Maccabi Tel Aviv here. There were big expectations with a "future Top 5 NBA Draft pick" and everyone seems to forget he's a kid that turned 18 during the season.
To sum up, I think Bender either needs to spend another season on another European team (I doubt he's in Maccabi's plans for next season as they're promising a "big, bounceback season") to get stronger and play more minutes, or he needs to come straight to the NBA where he will probably not play a lot during his first season but he can work on getting stronger and learn from the best. I do think he will be solid NBA player, as he's tough, a hard-worker and has all the physical tools. He's also a good fit in today's NBA with his ability to shoot and switch onto guards from the 4-5 positions. It's going to take at least 2-3 years before he can really contribute though.
As a Celtics fan, I'd go another route as I don't think he's a good fit.