Your preferred Celtic target at #3

[Cellar-Door]

I have never gotten into the NBA draft stuff as much as the NFL stuff. But are there any/many examples of young college players like Brown putting up poor advanced stats in college and then reaching the perceived scouting high ceilings?

Well I can't find some advanced stats for certain guys, but eyeballing it based on what I can here are guys who were not great college performers by the numbers (particularly as Freshmen) who blossomed starting with 2006 draft class:
Rondo, Lowry, Bradley, Westbrook, Holliday, Henson, McCollum, Muhammad, LaVine,

Now it's going to depend on what stat you use, etc. etc. but those are all guys who were similar performers to Brown in their first year, some stayed longer and improved in college, some in the pros.

 

[LondonSox]

I just can't figure out why you would draft a maybe like brown (or chriss) Vs a trade for Okafor. This seems like turning down the boat for the mystery box because the boat is a fixer upper.

 

[Auger34]

There's pretty much no chance either Brown is there in the 10-12 range.

Yeah it seems like the longest he could possibly last is until 8 and that might be a stretch. He must just be crushing these workouts because the latest intel is that the Lakers, C's and Wolves are all strongly considering him

 

[MillarTime]

I just can't figure out why you would draft a maybe like brown (or chriss) Vs a trade for Okafor.

If you believe the latest Ford rumor they may be doing both.

 

[moondog80]

If you believe the latest Ford rumor they may be doing both.

To be clear Ford wasn't reporting it as a rumor, just a "trade that makes sense".

 

[Cellar-Door]

I just can't figure out why you would draft a maybe like brown (or chriss) Vs a trade for Okafor. This seems like turning down the boat for the mystery box because the boat is a fixer upper.

Because you know what Okafor can for sure not do, and it is some really important stuff. I'd be furious if we traded the 3 for a player like Okafor. I don't see any way a team playing Okafor significant numbers competes for a title. He's like a poor man's Enes Kanter.
I'd rather take a chance on a guy who may be able to be a true star, and may bust out than a guy I know is a mediocre player with the potential to be a good offensive player and nothing else.

 

[MillarTime]

To be clear Ford wasn't reporting it as a rumor, just a "trade that makes sense".

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[ZMart100]

Kidd-Gilchrist went #2 in 2012 and had similarly unimpressive stats (12/7/1 per game). Of course, I'm sure some of that was due to the loaded team he was on. Not a perfect comp but similar given their age, athletic ability, and size. I don't think I'd be excited about getting a MKG with this pick.

They are very different types of players. MKG's rep was a high motor defensive stopper with the athleticism, but not the skill to be a good offensive contributor. Brown is regarded as an offensive player with the athleticism, but not the effort to be a good defensive player.

MKG from Draft Express

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is the top ranked wing player on our board (Beal is in the guard group), but it's more so due to his abilities as a hustle player, competitor, defender, rebounder, and his ability to do all the little things so well than it is his ability to score the basketball. With that said, it's not surprising Kidd-Gilchrist ranks near the bottom of the wings we compiled stats for in overall scoring efficiency, at 12th of 18 overall with 0.948 points per possession. Kidd-Gilchrist's 12.3 possessions used per game also ranks second to last of all players, coming in only ahead of Kentucky teammate Darius Miller.

Brown from Draft Express

Largely the same things about Brown's offense can be said about him defensively. He has all the tools to be successful and potentially even defend multiple positions down the road, but struggled at times with his focus off the ball and discipline defending one-on-one. He had some flashes using his strength and lateral quickness to apply ball pressure impressively around the arc and make his presence felt in the passing lanes, and is a strong rebounder, but has plenty of things to clean up on this end as well.

I am not a fan of Brown at #3.

 

[BigSoxFan]

They are very different types of players. MKG's rep was a high motor defensive stopper with the athleticism, but not the skill to be a good offensive contributor. Brown is regarded as an offensive player with the athleticism, but not the effort to be a good defensive player.

MKG from Draft Express

Brown from Draft Express


I am not a fan of Brown at #3.

I guess the point of my post was to find another comparable pick to Brown at #3 and not to compare their actual games, which are clearly different. I agree that Brown at #3 would do little to excite me. Would rather gamble on Bender or go with Dunn.

 

[LondonSox]

Because you know what Okafor can for sure not do, and it is some really important stuff. I'd be furious if we traded the 3 for a player like Okafor. I don't see any way a team playing Okafor significant numbers competes for a title. He's like a poor man's Enes Kanter.
I'd rather take a chance on a guy who may be able to be a true star, and may bust out than a guy I know is a mediocre player with the potential to be a good offensive player and nothing else.

If that's the case so be it. But he's not chopped liver and picking a guard you don't need or reaching for a guy who would be a late lottery pick in most drafts seems a bit weirdly negative.

I don't really care for the sixers if they can get a player they want even if he's overrated due to the weak draft that's fine. That player probably starts for the sixers, that player is a liability for the Celtics. If you are getting a big man he's a bigger question mark than okafor, okafor is exceptional offensively at 20. He is as likely to improve defensively as a guy like brown is, or chriss. But you don't even know if you get offense. Bender fine, that would make sense lots and lots of upside.

 

[nighthob]

Face it, no one is giving the Sixers a top five pick for Al Jefferson v1.1. It is what it is, the league's moving away from guys like him. He was born a decade too late and as of now his offense doesn't look like it can carry the defense.

 

[bowiac]

Well I can't find some advanced stats for certain guys, but eyeballing it based on what I can here are guys who were not great college performers by the numbers (particularly as Freshmen) who blossomed starting with 2006 draft class:
Rondo, Lowry, Bradley, Westbrook, Holliday, Henson, McCollum, Muhammad, LaVine,

Now it's going to depend on what stat you use, etc. etc. but those are all guys who were similar performers to Brown in their first year, some stayed longer and improved in college, some in the pros.

I'm gonna push back on this on a bit, since I think most "advanced" metrics will rate Brown as one of the worst of these guys. I'll take WS/40 here the year they were drafted, since it's available further back than BPM (but I don't think it's biased against Brown). I'll also add where these guys were drafted, since we're talking about Brown with the 3rd overall pick, not some late round flier...: I've provided WS/40 as a freshman in parens where it's dramatically lower.

1. McCollum: 0.265 - 10th overall
2. Lowry : 0.204 - 24th overall (0.112 as a freshman)
3. Henson: 0.198 - 14th overall (0.120 as a freshman)
4. Westbrook: 0.161 - 4th overall (0.108 as a freshman)
5. Muhammad: 0.153 - 14th overall
6. Rondo : 0.150 - 21st overall
7. Holliday: 0.139 - 17th overall
8. Bradley: 0.127 - 19th overall
9. Brown: 0.117 - 3rd overall
10. LaVine: 0.111 - 13th overall

Now, as you note, some of these guys played more than one year, but there's a reason they weren't drafted after their freshman year! The point is to wait until the promising athlete actually displays some skills before you use a pick on them.

I think Zach LaVine is probably the best comp on the list. Played a single year, was equally mediocre, and is regarded at least as well athletically as Brown is. But there's also a reason he went 13th overall. Maybe that's just a function how bad this draft is at the top of course.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

Dunn is on the Woj pod today and he sold me on him. Did not know his backstory.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I'm gonna push back on this on a bit, since I think most "advanced" metrics will rate Brown as one of the worst of these guys. I'll take WS/40 here the year they were drafted, since it's available further back than BPM (but I don't think it's biased against Brown). I'll also add where these guys were drafted, since we're talking about Brown with the 3rd overall pick, not some late round flier...: I've provided WS/40 as a freshman in parens where it's dramatically lower.

1. McCollum: 0.265 - 10th overall
2. Lowry : 0.204 - 24th overall (0.112 as a freshman)
3. Henson: 0.198 - 14th overall (0.120 as a freshman)
4. Westbrook: 0.161 - 4th overall (0.108 as a freshman)
5. Muhammad: 0.153 - 14th overall
6. Rondo : 0.150 - 21st overall
7. Holliday: 0.139 - 17th overall
8. Bradley: 0.127 - 19th overall
9. Brown: 0.117 - 3rd overall
10. LaVine: 0.111 - 13th overall

Now, as you note, some of these guys played more than one year, but there's a reason they weren't drafted after their freshman year! The point is to wait until the promising athlete actually displays some skills before you use a pick on them.

I think Zach LaVine is probably the best comp on the list. Played a single year, was equally mediocre, and is regarded at least as well athletically as Brown is. But there's also a reason he went 13th overall. Maybe that's just a function how bad this draft is at the top of course.

Yeah, I was using Freshmen year mostly. I agree he's toward the bottom, but I also think looking at where they were drafted can be a mistake.

The whole question of the decision is whether it makes sense to take a chance on a guy like that early. I mean, most of those guys are ones that teams regret passing on, so the question is as always do you take the shot on being able to teach and marry skills to his physical tools. Some teams are more willing than others to take that risk.

If I were picking the 3 best comps, to me of that group it's LaVine, Muhammad and Westbrook. Westbrook and LaVine are the similar athletes/bodies, Muhammad has the similar HS pedigree.

It's a tough call with Brown, he struggled A LOT, on the other hand his team's offense and coaching was abysmal and he was asked to carry an incredible load especially for a team with no PG. Cal was a brutal offense with no spacing and too often the play was... "Jaylen go make something happen driving into a double with no shooters to kick to". I see some real flaws, but I also see the upside that I think it could be worth a gamble, more so than guys like Murray or Hield. He probably should have gone back to school, except that this year has less top end talent than next year, and Cal isn't going to be any better.

 

[moly99]

I just can't figure out why you would draft a maybe like brown (or chriss) Vs a trade for Okafor. This seems like turning down the boat for the mystery box because the boat is a fixer upper.

Because players like Okafor are basically obsolete in the modern NBA. You can't evaluate a player in a vacuum. You have to consider how he affects the team as a whole.

You can't play Okafor as a center because he can't protect the rim or defend the pick and roll. So you need another big man next to him to make up for the fact that he gives you nothing defensively. But this means that you are now relying on Okafor to defend stretch fours and even small forwards like Lebron or Melo when other teams go small.

If you play Okafor as a power forward next to a traditional center you now have two big men operating in the post. That makes life easy for the defense, as they can commit extra bodies to deny entry passes to the post and less effort chasing guys around the perimeter.

The only way for Okafor to be a positive for his team is if they pair him with a guy like Serge Ibaka who can protect the rim, defense the pick and roll and also stretch the floor. But in that case it is really the other big man that is the more important player rather than Okafor.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Because players like Okafor are basically obsolete in the modern NBA. You can't evaluate a player in a vacuum. You have to consider how he affects the team as a whole.

You can't play Okafor as a center because he can't protect the rim or defend the pick and roll. So you need another big man next to him to make up for the fact that he gives you nothing defensively. But this means that you are now relying on Okafor to defend stretch fours and even small forwards like Lebron or Melo when other teams go small.

If you play Okafor as a power forward next to a traditional center you now have two big men operating in the post. That makes life easy for the defense, as they can commit extra bodies to deny entry passes to the post and less effort chasing guys around the perimeter.

The only way for Okafor to be a positive for his team is if they pair him with a guy like Serge Ibaka who can protect the rim, defense the pick and roll and also stretch the floor. But in that case it is really the other big man that is the more important player rather than Okafor.

Okafor is Sully with a superior offensive game and 5 years in the bank on him while on a rookie contract. That is a ton of positives for a 20-year old who is still expanding his face up shooting range. When did Okafor become Marisse Speights?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Okafor is Sully with a superior offensive game and 5 years in the bank on him while on a rookie contract. That is a ton of positives for a 20-year old who is still expanding his face up shooting range. When did Okafor become Marisse Speights?

Only if one completely ignores rebounding and defense is this true.
Even as a rookie Sullinger was a significantly better defender, and the rebounding is a huge difference.
Okafor will likely be the better (though a wildly different type of) player, but all he's really shown so far in the league is some good post moves and the ability to volume score. He needs a lot of work to be a good player and concerns about an unathletic big who doesn't rebound or defend are justified even if he can score, the ceiling on that is pretty low, even the comps of Jefferson and Kanter re misleading since those are good rebounding, scoring bigs who can't defend.

 

[LondonSox]

We shall see, I think people are way too down on him and The Celts are playing Colangelo like a fiddle and going to get Okafor Plus something for the third pick. Because Colangelo can't wait a year for a stacked PG prospect draft. Apparently both sides will be annoyed when it happens.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I agree with HRB and others who take a balanced view of Okafor. The idea that the NBA has changed so fundamentally that a post-scoring big isn't of any value seems overplayed to me; Okafor is certainly limited today, and that's a concern (and why he is available). He also can do some things that teams still need. If the price is a collection of lower-tier assets I think he's worth the gamble given where the Celtics are overall.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I agree with HRB and others who take a balanced view of Okafor. The idea that the NBA has changed so fundamentally that a post-scoring big isn't of any value seems overplayed to me; Okafor is certainly limited today, and that's a concern (and why he is available). He also can do some things that teams still need. If the price is a collection of lower-tier assets I think he's worth the gamble given where the Celtics are overall.

Do we really think Philly would trade Okafor for a package similar to what Chad Ford made up? Because I'm not buying it. I would gladly do a trade like that but it seems Philly is angling for the #3 to get Dunn. That I would not do.

 

[DJnVa]

Only if one completely ignores rebounding and defense is this true. .

Well, he did say offensive game, so I'm pretty sure he was ignoring defense.

 

[amfox1]

Do we really think Philly would trade Okafor for a package similar to what Chad Ford made up? Because I'm not buying it. I would gladly do a trade like that but it seems Philly is angling for the #3 to get Dunn. That I would not do.

Former PC HC head coach Tim Welsh reported on CSN's Sports Tonight that PHI is pushing to complete a trade for #3 before the draft.

Let's consider a couple of scenarios.

1. No third team. This makes it tough because neither Noel (BOS's preference) nor Okafor (PHI's preference) is worth #3.
Proposed trade: BOS trades #3 and Sullinger to PHI for Noel and LAL's 2017 1st round pick owned by PHI (top 3 protected). BOS gets its rim protector for a year and moves into the lottery of a stronger draft where they don't already own 8 picks. PHI gets its point guard. Sullinger is added just to make the numbers work (since BOS is technically over the cap until 7/1).

2. Third team (CHI/SAC). This is difficult because of the difficulties of making a three-team trade.
Proposed trade: PHI trades Okafor, #24 and #26 to BOS for #3 and Jerebko, BOS trades Okafor, Bradley, Rozier, #16 and #26 to CHI for Butler. PHI pays a strong price for #3 but doesn't give up next's year's draft pick or Noel. BOS would only do the deal if they had a deal to trade Okafor for an established star. BOS gives CHI two starters and three first round picks (counting Rozier), allowing CHI to rebuild on the fly. One could substitute SAC and Cousins for CHI and Butler. Okafor and WCS could actually be a great fit. Jerebko is added just to make the numbers work (since BOS is technically over the cap until 7/1).

 

[MillarTime]

2. Third team (CHI/SAC). This is difficult because of the difficulties of making a three-team trade.
Proposed trade: PHI trades Okafor, #24, #26 and Landry to BOS for #3, BOS trades Okafor, Bradley, Rozier, #16 and #26 to CHI for Butler. PHI pays a strong price for #3 but doesn't give up next's year's draft pick or Noel. BOS would only do the deal if they had a deal to trade Okafor for an established star. BOS gives CHI two starters and three first round picks (counting Rozier), allowing CHI to rebuild on the fly. One could substitute SAC and Cousins for CHI and Butler. Okafor and WCS could actually be a great fit.

It's....boner time.

 

[Auger34]

Former PC HC head coach Tim Welsh reported on CSN's Sports Tonight that PHI is pushing to complete a trade for #3 before the draft.

Let's consider a couple of scenarios.

1. No third team. This makes it tough because neither Noel (BOS's preference) nor Okafor (PHI's preference) is worth #3.
Proposed trade: BOS trades #3 and Sullinger to PHI for Noel and LAL's 2017 1st round pick owned by PHI (top 3 protected). BOS gets its rim protector for a year and moves into the lottery of a stronger draft where they don't already own 8 picks. PHI gets its point guard. Sullinger is added just to make the numbers work (since BOS is technically over the cap until 7/1).

2. Third team (CHI/SAC). This is difficult because of the difficulties of making a three-team trade.
Proposed trade: PHI trades Okafor, #24, #26 and Landry to BOS for #3, BOS trades Okafor, Bradley, Rozier, #16 and #26 to CHI for Butler. PHI pays a strong price for #3 but doesn't give up next's year's draft pick or Noel. BOS would only do the deal if they had a deal to trade Okafor for an established star. BOS gives CHI two starters and three first round picks (counting Rozier), allowing CHI to rebuild on the fly. One could substitute SAC and Cousins for CHI and Butler. Okafor and WCS could actually be a great fit.

That #2 option is very interesting...I think you would substitute Rozier for the 23. Then CHI would have 14,16, 23 and 26 in a really deep draft and a good trade chip in Bradley. Not sure who would say no to that one (unless CHI is holding onto the dream of competing this year)

 

[mauf]

Former PC HC head coach Tim Welsh reported on CSN's Sports Tonight that PHI is pushing to complete a trade for #3 before the draft.

Let's consider a couple of scenarios.

1. No third team. This makes it tough because neither Noel (BOS's preference) nor Okafor (PHI's preference) is worth #3.
Proposed trade: BOS trades #3 and Sullinger to PHI for Noel and LAL's 2017 1st round pick owned by PHI (top 3 protected). BOS gets its rim protector for a year and moves into the lottery of a stronger draft where they don't already own 8 picks. PHI gets its point guard. Sullinger is added just to make the numbers work (since BOS is technically over the cap until 7/1).

2. Third team (CHI/SAC). This is difficult because of the difficulties of making a three-team trade.
Proposed trade: PHI trades Okafor, #24 and #26 to BOS for #3 and Jerebko, BOS trades Okafor, Bradley, Rozier, #16 and #26 to CHI for Butler. PHI pays a strong price for #3 but doesn't give up next's year's draft pick or Noel. BOS would only do the deal if they had a deal to trade Okafor for an established star. BOS gives CHI two starters and three first round picks (counting Rozier), allowing CHI to rebuild on the fly. One could substitute SAC and Cousins for CHI and Butler. Okafor and WCS could actually be a great fit. Jerebko is added just to make the numbers work (since BOS is technically over the cap until 7/1).

I can't imagine Philly parting with Noel and a likely lottery pick for Dunn.

Scenario #2 is slightly more plausible, but if the Bulls want to trade Butler, I have to imagine they'll have better offers than AB, Okafor, and a couple of non-lottery 1st rounders. Remember, AB is going to get crazy-expensive in two years; he's worth a lot more to a contender than to a rebuilding team, which Chicago would be in this scenario.

 

[Auger34]

I can't imagine Philly parting with Noel and a likely lottery pick for Dunn.

Scenario #2 is slightly more plausible, but if the Bulls want to trade Butler, I have to imagine they'll have better offers than AB, Okafor, and a couple of non-lottery 1st rounders. Remember, AB is going to get crazy-expensive in two years; he's worth a lot more to a contender than to a rebuilding team, which Chicago would be in this scenario.

Chicago could easily flip Bradley for another asset or to move up in the draft. (Bradley, 16 and 23 for 6?) The obvious question would be would Chicago prefer the 3 or Okafor? Remember, Jahlil is a hometown kid, which might actually mean a good deal to the pretty backwards Bulls FO

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Only if one completely ignores rebounding and defense is this true.
Even as a rookie Sullinger was a significantly better defender, and the rebounding is a huge difference.
Okafor will likely be the better (though a wildly different type of) player, but all he's really shown so far in the league is some good post moves and the ability to volume score. He needs a lot of work to be a good player and concerns about an unathletic big who doesn't rebound or defend are justified even if he can score, the ceiling on that is pretty low, even the comps of Jefferson and Kanter re misleading since those are good rebounding, scoring bigs who can't defend.

Okafor entered the league as a 19-year old kid in such a dysfunctional situation that when even an Ish Smith was reacquired he became the most efficient offensive center in the league from Christmas on. What were your expectations of a 19-year old rookie without an NBA point guard on the roster, zero offensive spacing, and learning defensive schemes with a bunch of D-League guys scrambling around lost on that end of the floor? He's not a franchise player which is seems like some are killing him for not being which isn't fair to the player and clouds the vision of what he can become in 2-3 years.

Despite these obstacles Okafor's overall game greatly improved from October to March from where I sat.

 

[mauf]

Chicago could easily flip Bradley for another asset or to move up in the draft. (Bradley, 16 and 23 for 6?) The obvious question would be would Chicago prefer the 3 or Okafor? Remember, Jahlil is a hometown kid, which might actually mean a good deal to the pretty backwards Bulls FO

New Orleans might do that, but turning Butler into Okafor and #6 would be a disaster for Chicago.

AB has value to the right team, but I'm not sure any of the teams who'd be interested would part with the kind of assets Chicago would need to make a deal like scenario #2 viable. They certainly wouldn't take a leap of faith that they could -- you would need to get a fourth team involved up front. Four-team deals are rare for a reason.

 

[amfox1]

I can't imagine Philly parting with Noel and a likely lottery pick for Dunn.

Keep in mind that it is one year of Noel, then he's a RFA. That would be the cost of trading for #3 and getting the player you want this year, using a top-3 protected pick next year. I don't think that it is an unreasonable cost, especially given that PHI has three centers and has to trade one and given that the new GM was brought in to turn around the ship quickly.

 

[nighthob]

I'm pretty sure the consensus amongst Hinkie fans is that they would consider Nerlens Noel for LeBron if the Cavs were chipping in some future firsts to balance out the deal.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Keep in mind that it is one year of Noel, then he's a RFA. That would be the cost of trading for #3 and getting the player you want this year, using a top-3 protected pick next year. I don't think that it is an unreasonable cost, especially given that PHI has three centers and has to trade one and given that the new GM was brought in to turn around the ship quickly.

Three centers and about to add yet another big who can't shoot, and Saric on top of that. At least these two have some positional versatility on offense, though their heavy interest in Dunn suggests they don't necessarily want to put all their eggs in the Simmons-as-Point-Forward basket. Regardless, it would be fascinating watching them try to work all of these guys into the lineup. I hope they keep Okafor, as I'm dying to see him paired with Simmons on D.

 

[LondonSox]

I'm pretty sure the consensus amongst Hinkie fans is that they would consider Nerlens Noel for LeBron if the Cavs were chipping in some future firsts to balance out the deal.

You such a trolling loser. At least you know it based on your avatar.
We had this conversation ad infinitum in the Sixers thread and you now try to bring it here, bugger off.

Many sixers fans think Noel is the better fit with Embiid/ Simmons the RFA angle you've been soundly argued against over and over. End.
Okafor is not wart free, but he's two years younger than Dunn and Baker said improved all year, and notably in efficiency when the Sixers had a point guard. I don't think he's a worse prospect than when he was consensus top 2/3 pick in a better draft.
I think Okafor vs the number 3 pick is close to fair, certainly not so ridiculous as to be implausible. There's no one at 3 who is clearly better than Okafor. Dunn is fine but two years older than Jah, Bender has more upside but is a big question mark overall, Murray has handle and defensive concerns, Chriss can't rebound any better than Oakfor AND can't score yet, Brown has disappointed every time I've watched him. I understand the concerns about Okafor but I think the love of new shiny upside vs known concerns is skewing things. Either way I think it's close enough to be a conversation. But please remind us all some more why you're not allowed to post on big boy threads.

Most Sixers fans understand one of Noel and Okafor needs to go if Embiid is healthy. I'd rather Okafor but I'd be happy to wait, Okafor for a lower pick next year might give a better prospect anyway.

 

[mauf]

Keep in mind that it is one year of Noel, then he's a RFA. That would be the cost of trading for #3 and getting the player you want this year, using a top-3 protected pick next year. I don't think that it is an unreasonable cost, especially given that PHI has three centers and has to trade one and given that the new GM was brought in to turn around the ship quickly.

Re-signing Noel is likely to be a better use of Philly's money than the alternatives -- even with Simmons in the fold, no significant free agent is going there anytime soon. Also, given the reasons Colangelo was brought in, I don't see him trading away the club's only arguably above-average player. I definitely get your point about the exchange of value being fair; I just don't see the Sixers deciding that such a deal is in their interest.

 

[zenter]

I'm pretty sure the consensus amongst Hinkie fans is that they would consider Nerlens Noel for LeBron if the Cavs were chipping in some future firsts to balance out the deal.

Ahh... Back to normal. WTF???

You such a trolling loser. At least you know it based on your avatar.
We had this conversation ad infinitum in the Sixers thread and you now try to bring it here, bugger off.

brickowski:rondo::nighthob:hinkie/sixers

Arguing with people who construct strawmen and then beat them to dust is as fruitful as it sounds. I should know - I try to argue with P91 in V&N.

 

[MillarTime]

If they can't swing a trade at #3 (don't want Okafor or Noel for #3), then I want them to pick Kris Dunn. He has a very high ceiling and also perhaps the highest floor in the draft as well (outside of Simmons). The pick would create some roster issues without a doubt, but they can continue to explore trading one or two of Bradley, Smart, or Rozier (or even Dunn in the right deal) to balance out the roster after they see how free agency shakes out.

 

[Auger34]

At this point, my order of preference is
Dunn
Murray
Brown
Would be happy with any of those three. Would be sort of meh with Chriss, disappointed with Bender, and actually mad with Buddy. However, going after all of the tweets and rumors I think that the pick will be Dunn

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

Yeah, Buddy is the one guy I don't want out of the names mentioned.

I'd probably go: Dunn, Brown, Bender, Chriss, Murray in that order. Murray's D/athleticism concerns me, otherwise he'd be my pick.

 

[Devizier]

If the Celtics pick anyone, I'll be disappointed. I'll probably only be *extra* disappointed if they go with Chriss. I'm still feeling burned by Kedrick Brown, all these years later.

 

[DJnVa]

Didn't Bender workout for Celtics yesterday? Anything on that?

 

[bowiac]

I'm at:

1. Bender.
<gap>
2. Dunn.
<gap>
3. Brown.
4. Murray.
5. Chriss.
6. Hield.

 

[nighthob]

Arguing with people who construct strawmen and then beat them to dust is as fruitful as it sounds. I should know - I try to argue with P91 in V&N.

You may want to look at the sorts of things that Hinkie fans keep writing. It's why I make fun of them. Most of them still think there's a shortage of centers in the NBA and that teams should be mortgaging their futures to trade for one of Philly's.

I'm at:

1. Bender.
<gap>
2. Dunn.
<gap>
3. Brown.
4. Murray.
5. Chriss.
6. Hield.

This list mostly mirrors mine, with a few caveats. For one I don't see a gap between Dunn and Bender because Bender's frame looks like it doesn't have sufficient room for filling out. So I can see some bust potential there (by which I mean that I think there's a much greater than zero likelihood that he's nothing better than a third big). I also have Murray before Brown.

 

[In my lifetime]

What would be your order of preference with the possibilities of Noel or Okafor, assuming the differences in their contracts and also the draft pick contracts? This assumes straight up deals for #3.

 

[zenter]

You may want to look at the sorts of things that Hinkie fans keep writing. It's why I make fun of them. Most of them still think there's a shortage of centers in the NBA and that teams should be mortgaging their futures to trade for one of Philly's.

I call BS. I'm in the Philly thread. There are two reasonable possibilities on what you're doing, both of which end in strawman.

1) If you're arguing against people here on this forum, you're WAY off base. Nobody who agreed with Hinkie here believes what you think they do. Trust me, I'm not only the president - I'm also a client. Therefore: strawman.
2) If you're arguing against Johnny from Burger King, then it means you're fighting imagined demons to make yourself look good. Which neither defeats the imagined demons nor makes them any less imaginary. Therefore: strawman.

I'll apologize for the brickowski comparison, but constant tilting at windmills (his windmill was "Rondo, IMHO") to hijack conversations ended in his departure.

 

[bowiac]

What would be your order of preference with the possibilities of Noel or Okafor, assuming the differences in their contracts and also the draft pick contracts? This assumes straight up deals for #3.

I would slot Noel in #3, and Okafor at #7.

 

[nighthob]

I'll apologize for the brickowski comparison, but constant tilting at windmills (his windmill was "Rondo, IMHO") to hijack conversations ended in his departure.

I'm not tilting at windmills, because there's no arguing with the irrational. I'm just making fun of them. All that needed to be said on the matter was the recent story about Philly discovering that their assets weren't as valuable as they hoped, and their hopes were considerably more realistic than some of the fever dreams in the Philly thread.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I would slot Noel in #3, and Okafor at #7.

This is where I'm at, with one caveat.

I think the C's should take Bender at 3.

However, if Philly is desperate enough for Dunn that you can get Noel and one of their future assets you go for it. If you can get one of the picks that has swap rights with the Kings, for instance, I think you have to do it. Not sure Philly does that, but that's where I stand.

 

[bowiac]

I agree with that.

Unrelatedly, new post up from Dean Demakis arguing that the rise of constant switching has caused defensive versatility to be underrated in the draft, and ranking prospects by versatility. Demakis has argued for Bender to be the #1 pick, and I'd imagine this is a big part of why.

 

[moly99]

If you really want to take the ball out of Isaiah Thomas' hands and run the offense through the post, then why not sign Dwight Howard as a free agent and keep the pick?

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

If you really want to take the ball out of Isaiah Thomas' hands and run the offense through the post, then why not sign Dwight Howard as a free agent and keep the pick?

I'm not sure who you're replying to here. Who is suggesting taking the ball out of IT's hands and running the offense through the post?

 

[moly99]

I'm not sure who you're replying to here. Who is suggesting taking the ball out of IT's hands and running the offense through the post?

Everyone who wants us to trade for Okafor. His only major strength is post scoring, so if we traded the third pick in the draft for him we would need to put the ball in his hands to get a fair return.