Your catchall JOHN HENRY AND THE SOX ARE SOOOO CHEAP!!! thread

[BringBackMo]

Thought I'd start a single thread where everyone can post all their complaints about how unwilling to spend JWH and the Red Sox are. This central repository might help to improve the flow of discussion in other Red Sox threads.

For instance, posters who are frustrated that the Sox are engaging with free agent Juan Soto despite quite obviously having no willingness to spend what it will take to actually sign him can make their arguments here. That will will keep the "Sox talking to Soto" thread centered on discussions about how the Sox are talking to Soto and what that might mean for roster construction, etc.

Even better, this thread doesn't have to be limited to just examples of the Sox being unwilling to spend on top free agents anymore. Sick of the team cheaping out and signing bottom-tier players? This will be the perfect venue to argue that the Sox are now "the Rays north." Meanwhile, the Justin Wilson thread will be freed up to focus on Wilson's peripherals and whether there's actually something there that the team can work with in the lab.

Missed out on Fried? Talk to this thread.

Ticket prices went up again? Talk to this thread.

Sox traded Mookie, huh? Talk to this thread.

 

[the1andonly3003]

Can ppl complain about Liverpool too? TAA, Virgil and Salah seem gone after this window!

 

[Big Papi's Mango Salsa]

Can I talk in here about how I don't think they're cheap. There is a difference between upper middle class (which is where they've been the past half decade), middle class, being cheap and being upper class.

I just kind of hate HOW they've spent the roughly $225m or so per year on the baseball team, not that I don't think they've spent it. In my mind, this is still more of a Bloom issue than a JWH issue, but this off-season - when there are many paths they could take to address needs (none of which necessitate Juan Soto) will tell at least me a lot on if this was a function of Bloom or FSG.

If they end up this off-season giving out relatively small, short term contracts, then I'll be wrong, of course. It's a big off-season.

Or put another way, if they don't end up with Soto but do end up with Hernandez, Eovaldi and Tanner Scott, I'm not going to call them cheap. Or Santander, Fried and Hoffman. Etc, etc. If they DO end up spending something like 1/$20m on Paul Goldschmidt, 2yrs and $35m on Tyler O'Neill, 2 years and $50m on Andrew Heaney and 2yrs and $30m on AJ Minter, I won't call them cheap, but I'll hate the way they've elected to spend.

 

[pjheff]

I just kind of hate HOW they've spent the roughly $225m or so per year on the baseball team, not that I don't think they've spent it.

Do you not think that Henry feels the same?

 

[Big Papi's Mango Salsa]

Do you not think that Henry feels the same?

Honestly, I'm not sure, but I think this year will tell a lot about who shares the biggest amount of blame pie based on how the money is spent.

My take has pretty consistently been to err on the side of believing in FSG and blaming Bloom for the plethora of short term deals to stop gap pieces, and I had / have been calling for Bloom to be fired since the 2022 deadline. Were I the one writing the checks, I'd have lost faith in allowing him to make big money deals either, to be clear, though I'd also have fired him long before he was.

Last off-season I really and truly did think that with a new PoBO at the helm, that they'd at minimum get back into the mid tier deals for if not elite then at least high level players (for instance, I really wanted Montgomery, Imanaga and Teoscar Hernandez signed to something like 6 and 4 and 4 year deals, respectively). They of course made all short term commitments.

This year there are a wide number of players out there that could nicely fit sizable deficiencies in the organization with multi year commitments (Burnes, Fried, Snell, Flaherty, Eovaldi, Santander, Hernandez, Bregman, Adames, Kim, Alonso, Walker or a trade and extension for someone like Crochet, Gilbert, etc). If they make commitments like that, then I'd a) feel somewhat vindicated in my perception of FSG's feelings toward the FO the past several years and; b) agree that JWH DOES feel the same; however, if c) they stick with these small time deals to stop gap options, then I'd have no real choice but to look at the evidence and believe that Henry does not in fact feel the same way.

I'm trying to draw the distinction between disliking the process as opposed to just picking at the results with hindsight, which anyone can do if they'd like, I don't mind reading it. Though I personally don't feel just picking apart at things that happened is "fair" for myself.

 

[54thMA]

I wonder if the Yankees getting to the World Series for the first time since 2009 will move the needle for Henry and result in him spending this off season, like the Yankees did in 2009 after the Red Sox went to the World Series in 2007 and the Rays went in 2008 after they played each other in the 2008 ALCS and the Yankees were on the outside looking in, looking up at not one, but two teams, much like the Red Sox are doing now with the Yankees and the Orioles ahead of them..

 

[YTF]

Can ppl complain about Liverpool too? TAA, Virgil and Salah seem gone after this window!

There are forums for other sports.

 

[TomRicardo]

Thought I'd start a single thread where everyone can post all their complaints about how unwilling to spend JWH and the Red Sox are. This central repository might help to improve the flow of discussion in other Red Sox threads.

For instance, posters who are frustrated that the Sox are engaging with free agent Juan Soto despite quite obviously having no willingness to spend what it will take to actually sign him can make their arguments here. That will will keep the "Sox talking to Soto" thread centered on discussions about how the Sox are talking to Soto and what that might mean for roster construction, etc.

Even better, this thread doesn't have to be limited to just examples of the Sox being unwilling to spend on top free agents anymore. Sick of the team cheaping out and signing bottom-tier players? This will be the perfect venue to argue that the Sox are now "the Rays north." Meanwhile, the Justin Wilson thread will be freed up to focus on Wilson's peripherals and whether there's actually something there that the team can work with in the lab.

Missed out on Fried? Talk to this thread.

Ticket prices went up again? Talk to this thread.

Sox traded Mookie, huh? Talk to this thread.

So the goal is to take any realistic talk about the state of the team put into one thread so people can talk about how the team is secretly built to win 100 wins every where else?

 

[astrozombie]

FWIW, here is where I come down on this whole thing, with the caveat that I am pretty anti-ownership these days:
1. I don't think they are "cheap" in the sense that they are operating like the A's. I think they are "cheap" in what they are spending relative to the amount of revenue they generate.
2. Spending money does not always correlate perfectly with winning, but it at least demonstrates that you are trying. The Angels have been awful for decades, but no one accused Moreno of not trying.
3. FSG was not always this way. 20 years ago they wanted to win, put the resources into doing it and did. Part of the reason I dislike the "THEY WON 4 CHAMPIONSHIPS I TRUST THEM FOREVER" argument is that yes, it did matter once and no, I don't think that matters quite as much any more. Things change.
4. What changed? I think other pursuits of ownership (particularly their pursuit of an NBA team) have caused them to focus attention on that. The Sox print money and they - correctly - deduced that they could spend less money on the team and the revenue would not be affected all that much. If I can get a cheeseburger for $10, why would I pay $21 for that same cheeseburger with an extra slice of cheese? They know they can't spend like the Rays because then they would lose revenue, but they are following the old Bruins Jacobs model of "spend just enough to be not crappy, not great".
5. FSG's messaging is so bad at all this that I have to doubt their sincerity. They talk about the need to get pitching (then don't - the Sox had the same needs last year), they were "in" on YY (until it turns out that - according to some posters - we was only ever going to sign in LA and would have happily done so for $1, even though he did take a lot of money to go there). Then they talk about the Fenway experience (!!) and good student prices as reasons people should come see the Sox.
6. For all the "they were a top 5 payroll team before the last few", part of that payroll was the albatrosses of Price and Sale. Yeah, it counts towards payroll but not towards the product on the field. Teams like the Yankees and Dodgers (and formerly the Sox) would have realized those sunk costs and spent their way out of the problem.

 

[BringBackMo]

So the goal is to take any realistic talk about the state of the team put into one thread so people can talk about how the team is secretly built to win 100 wins every where else?

Nah. The goal is to see if we can find a way to discuss news of the team without it being reduced in every single thread to how cheap and not committed to winning the Red Sox are.

 

[jose melendez]

Watching the 2004 doc, one of the things that struck me was just how badly ownership wanted to win. I don't think they have that any more. If they do, they certainly aren't showing it.

 

[Van Everyman]

Watching the 2004 doc, one of the things that struck me was just how badly ownership wanted to win. I don't think they have that any more. If they do, they certainly aren't showing it.

I was literally typing this as you posted, jose ... I found it sort of interesting seeing Henry talk about roster building and the Yankee rivalry ca. 2003 and 2004 in The Comeback on Netflix. At least some of it seemed a little awkward in light of their recent payroll -- or at least, a stark contrast.

 

[Youkilis vs Wild]

I think this offseason is a decent test of whether FSG has really changed its approach since 2019 permanently, or if the last few years were basically the equivalent of 2012-2014, and that FSG operates with a boom-bust, cyclical mentality. If they go all-in this offseason, then you can certainly fault the cyclical approach, but I would at least take some comfort in knowing the good times do come back.

Now, a couple caveats here, each of which could undermine my own hopeful thesis from opposite directions...

Regarding the 2012-2014 reset, 2013 was obviously a nice year to have! But it was also clearly a bit of lightning in a bottle and you could make a case that 2021 was a pretty similar year.

And in recent years, the Sox have spent some money -- not enough, most agree, but some -- with middling to really bad results. Thinking specifically of Story/Giolito/Yoshida. Suggests some evaluation and luck issues may be to blame there as much as anything, because maybe they have a better run the last few years if those guys panned out better.

 

[lexrageorge]

I’m still glad the Sox stayed far away from the fool’s gold that is Jordan Montgomery. I want the Sox to spend money, but to spend it on the right players. Soto would be nice, but if they are creative they can still build a contending team without him. But I don’t want them spending money for the sake of spending money — Crawford, Hanley, Sandoval say hi.

 

[chrisfont9]

Watching the 2004 doc, one of the things that struck me was just how badly ownership wanted to win. I don't think they have that any more. If they do, they certainly aren't showing it.

That's a high bar though. Nothing will ever be like 2003-4 again, at least not until 2100. Whether they are sufficiently motivated is a fair question though.

 

[Daniel_Son]

Thanks, Mo. I agree - every single thread getting overtaken by the same few posters insisting that Boston is cheap is getting really tired. I have my gripes with the team, don't get me wrong, but we were #6 in team payroll as recently as 2022, #1 just 5 years ago, and basically top 3 for the preceding two decades. The cheapness calls don't track for me, I'm sorry, nor do the accusations that JWH doesn't want to own a winning ballclub anymore. We've had a rough few years. I don't think it's an indicator of future performance. If anything, I'd argue that our relative lack of future salary commitments make us the most logical landing spot for a big-ticket guy like Soto, or someone interested in being on the ground floor of a dynasty like Sasaki.

 

[ShaneTrot]

My beef is they seem to have no problem gouging the customer in their ballpark. While spending like they are the Diamondbacks or Cardinals and somehow being worse than both of those two teams. Cohen is spending monopoly money on the Mets and charges reasonable ticket prices.
I am convinced that the success of the Rays, made them a little crazy. Why increase the Sox payroll when the Rays were the little engine that could? Of course, the Rays care about defense and have a remarkable ability to rehabilitate pitchers, get good innings out of them, or trade them before those same pitchers self-destruct.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

This thread was created so that if denial is a required response, its still available for all the people who are rooting for a small market wonder.

That said, we really should not grade the offseason until its over.

 

[BringBackMo]

This thread was created so that if denial is a required response, its still available for all the people who are rooting for a small market wonder.

That said, we really should not grade the offseason until its over.

No, this thread was created just for you. Welcome!

 

[SouthernBoSox]

View: https://twitter.com/bossportsgordo/status/1857526592609689677?s=46

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

No, this thread was created just for you. Welcome!

Nope. Its created for the those roto types who dream of creating a WS winner using spit and kleenex. And people who place a lot of value in words.

I just want the Red Sox to contend every year and if JWH/Werner and RedBird have to spend all their dough for that, so be it. Its not my money.

 

[joe dokes]

Spending money does not always correlate perfectly with winning, but it at least demonstrates that you are trying

It's the most obvious way of trying to convince people you are trying, and by far the easiest way to shut people up in the winter. It could almost as equally demonstrate that you are stupid. (Not YOU you, obviously).
Getting good players in all ways that good players can be gotten "demonstrates that you are trying."

 

[BringBackMo]

Nope. Its created for the those roto types who dream of creating a WS winner using spit and kleenex. And people who place a lot of value in words.

I just want the Red Sox to contend every year and if JWH/Werner and RedBird have to spend all their dough for that, so be it. Its not my money.

This post is a worthy addition to the thread. I really think this could catch on.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

This post is a worthy addition to the thread. I really think this could catch on.

The facts are that the Sox haven't been allocating resources to payroll and haven't been winning.

And it sucks to have type this but we all understand that just spending money does not equate to winning. But we also know that spending money can give your team more diverse roster that allows you to compete through injuries etc.

I am simply posting reality. Everything else is wishcasting.

 

[pjheff]

Honestly, I'm not sure, but I think this year will tell a lot about who shares the biggest amount of blame pie based on how the money is spent.

My take has pretty consistently been to err on the side of believing in FSG and blaming Bloom for the plethora of short term deals to stop gap pieces

My guess is that Henry sees short term deals as a feature, not a bug. I’d imagine that he’s tired of paying a significant portion of his payroll each year for guys who aren’t producing on his roster. The clear directive has been to build from within, supplement from without, and only extend long-terms deals to younger players with a high likelihood to provide a return on the investment.

 

[BringBackMo]

The facts are that the Sox haven't been allocating resources to payroll and haven't been winning.

And it sucks to have type this but we all understand that just spending money does not equate to winning. But we also know that spending money can give your team more diverse roster that allows you to compete through injuries etc.

I am simply posting reality. Everything else is wishcasting.

The reality, as has been discussed many times, is that the Sox have spent the past five seasons rebuilding. They have drafted very well and have developed players at an impressive rate. They already have players like Casas, Abreu, Rafaela, and Crawford contributing in the majors, and they have one of the very best minor league systems in baseball about to graduate its first wave of elite prospects to the majors, with waves of highly rated prospects developing behind them. The Sox are also in excellent position with regard to the luxury cap just as they enter their GFIN window. They can afford a Soto, or more likely a collection of free agent pitchers and hitters who may not be HoF caliber but rate to be plenty good enough for this team to be legitimate contenders this season.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

One person's rebuilding is another person's not-contending and not even really trying. Maybe that changes now but the onus is on the team - not on the superfans to try to sell us that ownership is secretly committed to playing with the big market clubs.

Rebuilding = irrelevant in terms of contending. Rebuilding = losing.

 

[TrotNixonRing]

So I guess stockpiling top prospects isn’t relevant to contending?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

So I guess stockpiling top prospects isn’t relevant to contending?

Have they contended? Are they set do so as currently constituted?

They may well be in the mix this year. They have to prove it - the faith of those here isn't proof of anything other than some folks just really love the Red Sox.

 

[BaseballJones]

Have they contended?

2021, yes.

2022-2024, no.

But it takes time. I think they're on the precipice.

 

[joe dokes]

One person's rebuilding is another person's not-contending and not even really trying. Maybe that changes now but the onus is on the team - not on the superfans to try to sell us that ownership is secretly committed to playing with the big market clubs.

Rebuilding = irrelevant in terms of contending. Rebuilding = losing.

The bolded is absolute bullshit. Spending a fucktillion dollars on free agents to keep the braying masses at full winter priapism will not field a winning team in the absence of a built (or rebuilt) rest of the system.

 

[BigSoxFan]

So I guess stockpiling top prospects isn’t relevant to contending?

Isn’t this thread about spending? They are fully capable of doing both of these things. This offseason will tell us all we need to know. There are multiple guys who would be material upgrades over what they have and there is plenty of room to spend.

Now, it’s time for results. I am hopeful for a far more impactful offseason than last. I also don’t blame people for being skeptical.

 

[joe dokes]

Have they contended? Are they set do so as currently constituted?

They may well be in the mix this year. They have to prove it - the faith of those here isn't proof of anything other than some folks just really love the Red Sox.

You said "irrelevant to contending." it isn't.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

The bolded is absolute bullshit. Spending a fucktillion dollars on free agents to keep the braying masses at full priapism will not field a winning team in the absence of a built (or rebuilt) rest of the system.

I acknowledged that just spending does not equate to winning above. Do we need to review payroll and standings data here? I dont think we do but the Sox have not contended in this decade. That's a fact.

 

[E5 Yaz]

And people who place a lot of value in words.

A pitcher is worth 1,000 words

 

[BringBackMo]

One person's rebuilding is another person's not-contending and not even really trying. Maybe that changes now but the onus is on the team - not on the superfans to try to sell us that ownership is secretly committed to playing with the big market clubs.

Rebuilding = irrelevant in terms of contending. Rebuilding = losing.

LOL. What?

Here are the Houston Astros six seasons prior to winning 101 games and the World Series in 2017. Through these seasons they built the best farm system in baseball.
2011: 56-106
2012: 55-107
2013: 51-111
2014: 70-92
2015: 86-76
2016: 84-78

Here are the Braves four seasons prior to winning their division in 2018, which launched a current run that includes a World Series title. During these seasons they built one of the best systems in baseball.
2014: 79-83
2015: 67-95
2016: 68-93
2017: 72-90

We could do Baltimore for a more recent example but whatever.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

The bolded is absolute bullshit. Spending a fucktillion dollars on free agents to keep the braying masses at full winter priapism will not field a winning team in the absence of a built (or rebuilt) rest of the system.

Building a farm system is a good thing. But the Red Sox (1) generate ~$600 million per year, (2) play in a league without a salary cap, and (3) operate in a sport with a draft that's more of a crapshoot than any other sport out there. The idea that a team that exists in that reality has no choice but to take a step back from spending on free agents for six years and "wait for a cost-controlled core" before spending again is asinine.

 

[joe dokes]

Building a farm system is a good thing. But the Red Sox (1) generate ~$600 million per year, (2) play in a league without a salary cap, and (3) operate in a sport with a draft that's more of a crapshoot than any other sport out there. The idea that a team that exists in that reality has no choice but to take a step back from spending on free agents for six years and "wait for a cost-controlled core" before spending again is asinine.

There is almost no point -- other than to silence critics -- to spending big on free agents while the rest of the system sucks, as it is not likely to lead to winning big.

 

[soxhop411]

LOL. What?

Here are the Houston Astros six seasons prior to winning 101 games and the World Series in 2017. Through these seasons they built the best farm system in baseball.
2011: 56-106
2012: 55-107
2013: 51-111
2014: 70-92
2015: 86-76
2016: 84-78

Here are the Braves four seasons prior to winning their division in 2018, which launched a current run that includes a World Series title. During these seasons they built one of the best systems in baseball.
2014: 79-83
2015: 67-95
2016: 68-93
2017: 72-90

We could do Baltimore for a more recent example but whatever.

Building a farm system is a good thing. But the Red Sox (1) generate ~$600 million per year, (2) play in a league without a salary cap, and (3) operate in a sport with a draft that's more of a crapshoot than any other sport out there. The idea that a team that exists in that reality has no choice but to take a step back from spending on free agents for six years and "wait for a cost-controlled core" before spending again is asinine.

While there is technically not a hard salary cap, the MLB of today has a salary cap that acts as hard cap (due to severe the repercussions of going over it). There was a time where mlb had no salary cap whatsoever and teams could spend whatever they wanted in FA/ domestic draft and the international FA market) , but those days are long gone (and many many many CBA’s ago).

now there are spending caps in the draft/ international FA market and punishments for breaking or going over those thresholds.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

There is almost no point -- other than to silence critics -- to spending big on free agents while the rest of the system sucks, as it is not likely to lead to winning big.

Bullshit. It is extremely possible to build a winning team through free agency and trades. MLB owners have effectively entered into a league-wide system of soft collusion whereby almost none of the teams try to do so, but that's not because it isn't possible.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

While there is technically not a hard salary cap, the MLB of today has a salary cap that acts as hard cap (due to severe the repercussions of going over it). There was a time where mlb had no salary cap whatsoever and teams could spend whatever they wanted in FA/ domestic draft and the international FA market) , but those days are long gone (and many many many CBA’s ago).

now there are spending caps in the draft/ international FA market and punishments for breaking or going over those thresholds.

Pretty sure the Red Sox have paid less than $20 million in luxury tax fees throughout the entire history of the club. What exactly is your definition of "severe repercussions."

 

[joe dokes]

Bullshit. It is extremely possible to build a winning team through free agency and trades. MLB owners have effectively entered into a league-wide system of soft collusion whereby almost none of the teams try to do so, but that's not because it isn't possible.

What do you trade to augment those FA's?

 

[BringBackMo]

Pretty sure the Red Sox have paid less than $20 million in luxury tax fees throughout the entire history of the club. What exactly is your definition of "severe repercussions."

Honest question: are you aware of the draft and IFA pool penalties for exceeding the cap over time?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

LOL. What?

Here are the Houston Astros six seasons prior to winning 101 games and the World Series in 2017. Through these seasons they built the best farm system in baseball.
2011: 56-106
2012: 55-107
2013: 51-111
2014: 70-92
2015: 86-76
2016: 84-78

Here are the Braves four seasons prior to winning their division in 2018, which launched a current run that includes a World Series title. During these seasons they built one of the best systems in baseball.
2014: 79-83
2015: 67-95
2016: 68-93
2017: 72-90

We could do Baltimore for a more recent example but whatever.

The Astros and Braves were not relevant during those periods, thank you. And if people love watching prospects develop, awesome.

I am talking about sustainably contending - that's what I am getting at. There are no rules or a well worn playbook on how to do that. Furthermore, other clubs don't take multiple seasons to rebuild - some do so on the fly. Others gamble that enough picks pan out but that often fails.

We are discussing the Boston Red Sox and some of us feel like this club should be a contender each and every season. Apparently you aren't in that group.

 

[BringBackMo]

The Astros and Braves were not relevant during those periods, thank you. And if people love watching prospects develop, awesome.

I am talking about sustainably contending - that's what I am getting at. There are no rules or a well worn playbook on how to do that. Furthermore, other clubs don't take multiple seasons to rebuild - some do so on the fly. Others gamble that enough picks pan out but that often fails.

We are discussing the Boston Red Sox and some of us feel like this club should be a contender each and every season. Apparently you aren't in that group.

The irony of your complaints is that what the Sox have built through this process has significantly improved their chances for the kind of sustainable contention you are demanding. In any case, you know who else didn’t believe the Red Sox should be a contender each and every season? Theo Epstein.

 

[joe dokes]

We are discussing the Boston Red Sox and some of us feel like this club should be a contender each and every season. Apparently you aren't in that group.

Who is a contender each and every year?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Who is a contender each and every year?

The Dodgers

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

Honest question: are you aware of the draft and IFA pool penalties for exceeding the cap over time?

Yes? Are you aware that those penalties don't even kick until a team hits $281 million in payroll, and that the penalty is only 10 draft slots?

 

[BringBackMo]

I am aware of the rules, yes.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

The Dodgers

And the Yankees, despite the fact that their farm system has produced a grand total of two position players of worth over the past 15 years, one of whom only just finished his second season.