YOUR 2016-2017 Boston Celtics!

Light-Tower-Power · Dec 1, 2016

I think one of the first big issues totally aside from the trades is the fact that I don't think IT would accept a bench role at this point.

mandro ramtinez · Dec 1, 2016

I think Boogie costs, at minimum, both of the Nets picks plus one of Rozier or Brown and one of Smart, Bradley or Crowder.

gammoseditor · Dec 1, 2016

mandro ramtinez said:
I think Boogie costs, at minimum, both of the Nets picks plus one of Rozier or Brown and one of Smart, Bradley or Crowder.

That's potentially a #6 pick, #3 pick, and two unprotected Brooklyn picks. It's more than we got for Pierce and KG. It's more than 4 times what we gave up for Ray Allen. It's a lot more than we gave up for KG.

mandro ramtinez · Dec 1, 2016

gammoseditor said:
That's potentially a #6 pick, #3 pick, and two unprotected Brooklyn picks. It's more than we got for Pierce and KG. It's more than 4 times what we gave up for Ray Allen. It's a lot more than we gave up for KG.

I think it's going to take a haul to convince Sac to trade Cousins. Cousins is 26 presumably with a bunch of prime years ahead while KG was 31 with a ton of accumulated miles in 07. I recognize I might be overstating the price. I frankly don't think there is any way to construct a viable trade for Cousins that leaves enough assets to then acquire Wall, too.

wutang112878 · Dec 1, 2016

Before we even get to trades, I think we have to figure out if Horford could work as a 4. Against a guy like Randolph it would be fine, but we'd want to compete against Cleveland and GS with these lineups so could Horford cover Love and Draymond when they stretch him outside. Additionally, in today's NBA can you win by having 2 of your top 3 players be bigs? Specifically on these lineups, will they have enough outside shooting to stop opponents from just dropping down to the paint.

I might go about this differently. Maybe offer Horford + something other than the Nets picks for Cousins and then go use the Nets picks to get a great shooting 2 or 3, like Klay if he was available. If IT was driving and kicking out to Klay, or Cousins was operating down low and kicking out to Klay I think that might be a complimentary offense.

TroyOLeary · Dec 1, 2016

wutang112878 said:
Before we even get to trades, I think we have to figure out if Horford could work as a 4. Against a guy like Randolph it would be fine, but we'd want to compete against Cleveland and GS with these lineups so could Horford cover Love and Draymond when they stretch him outside. Additionally, in today's NBA can you win by having 2 of your top 3 players be bigs? Specifically on these lineups, will they have enough outside shooting to stop opponents from just dropping down to the paint.

I might go about this differently. Maybe offer Horford + something other than the Nets picks for Cousins and then go use the Nets picks to get a great shooting 2 or 3, like Klay if he was available. If IT was driving and kicking out to Klay, or Cousins was operating down low and kicking out to Klay I think that might be a complimentary offense.

So after finally nabbing a big-name free agent we're going to trade him mid-season to a terrible team?

wutang112878 · Dec 1, 2016

If you think it gives you a shot at a title, then I think you have to do it. I dont think loyalty is that big of a consideration to NBA players. When they get to free agency if they think they can leave for greener pastures, then they do. 5 years from now if we've won a title and we are trying to get a top free agent again, I think his focus will be on $ and his chances to win here and trading Horford will probably be a distant memory.

Jed Zeppelin · Dec 1, 2016

The Kings aren't accepting a trade based around Al Horford. A Cousins trade will require the picks and probably Brown as well. What we gave up for KG is irrelevant. We're going to have to give more because we have more, and no GM can trade a star player without getting at least one Brooklyn pick in return if he wants to keep his job.

teddykgb · Dec 1, 2016

I think it is exceptionally strange to propose trades to strengthen probably the two strongest positions on our roster (PG and C). I don't think Horford can play the 4 every night and I'm not sure why we'd want to displace Isaiah for Wall. These aren't bad players or anything, but our needs are elsewhere.

I'd personally prefer to pursue a true 3 who can score which would give us some flexibility to use Crowder at the 4 at times and go small. Whether that's George, Butler, Hayward, etc ... all the names we've bandied about in the past. Jae has really developed into quite a player but I think a truly difficult to guard player at this spot or the 2 would help us a lot on offense.

I don't really know what a PF is in the NBA anymore but I know that Amir Johnson and Tyler Zeller are getting too many minutes. I'm relatively certain we need another big, but I don't know if that person needs to start alongside Horford or just be a better rotational option. At least in theory, if it were rotational, Olynyk should be an option there but he just can't seem to become a nightly impact player you can rely upon.

gammoseditor · Dec 1, 2016

wutang112878 said:
If you think it gives you a shot at a title, then I think you have to do it. I dont think loyalty is that big of a consideration to NBA players. When they get to free agency if they think they can leave for greener pastures, then they do. 5 years from now if we've won a title and we are trying to get a top free agent again, I think his focus will be on $ and his chances to win here and trading Horford will probably be a distant memory.

I don't see how your scenario gets us in the tier with GS and Cleveland.

wutang112878 · Dec 1, 2016

gammoseditor said:
I don't see how your scenario gets us in the tier with GS and Cleveland.

You mean a core of Klay, Cousins & IT? I think Klay can be a 1A fiddle and you can win a title, sort of the same way Pierce was but Klay's game is different. I think IT could be your 3rd best, but the big question is Cousins. Right now Cousins is 5th in PER and 2nd in Usage, last year it was 11th in PER and 5th in Usage, the year before that he was 7th in PER and 3rd in Usage. Meanwhile, his total rebound % is very good. Now you'd have to project him to a team that has actual talent which should bring down his usage and increase his PER, and his rebounding would be a huge boost to this team. Plus the rest of your roster should still be very deep after that and if we assembled that team I think we could attract a significant FA piece as well. I think it gets us pretty close to a title but I'm sure we'd have some tweaking to do.

We should also realize that there is probably a 1% chance that we have another 08 offseason where Ainge puts virtually the entire title team together in 1 offseason.

teddykgb · Dec 1, 2016

wutang112878 said:
You mean a core of Klay, Cousins & IT? I think Klay can be a 1A fiddle and you can win a title, sort of the same way Pierce was but Klay's game is different. I think IT could be your 3rd best, but the big question is Cousins. Right now Cousins is 5th in PER and 2nd in Usage, last year it was 11th in PER and 5th in Usage, the year before that he was 7th in PER and 3rd in Usage. Meanwhile, his total rebound % is very good. Now you'd have to project him to a team that has actual talent which should bring down his usage and increase his PER, and his rebounding would be a huge boost to this team. Plus the rest of your roster should still be very deep after that and if we assembled that team I think we could attract a significant FA piece as well. I think it gets us pretty close to a title but I'm sure we'd have some tweaking to do.

We should also realize that there is probably a 1% chance that we have another 08 offseason where Ainge puts virtually the entire title team together in 1 offseason.

I don't think we have anywhere near the assets required to get both Cousins and Klay. "Horford + something other than the Nets picks" isn't a viable package to get Cousins. Horford is a good player whom we just signed but SAC isn't getting better by getting an older, inferior version of boogie and none of our top picks. We'd have to nearly empty the cupboard to get Cousins which would leave us without enough to get Klay unless you start talking yourself into GS needing Bradley and Crowder or something as role players. Which is fine theory but if they're willing to move Klay they'll have plenty of interesting offers.

NoXInNixon · Dec 1, 2016

The Kings aren't trading Cousins unless they have to. And if they have to trade him, the Celtics don't have to offer a fair package, they just have to offer the best one. What contender has anything to offer better than the two Brooklyn picks alone?

nighthob · Dec 1, 2016

From everything I've seen and heard, Stevens doesn't want Cousins, so I doubt Boston pursues him. The risk of him going full Dwightmare are just way too high. You could probably construct a deal for KT around Horford, but Boston's frontcourt is already weak enough. No thanks on Wall. The bloom's off the rose there, and I wouldn't be giving up a top five pick for him.

Right now I still expect the big change to come this summer with the addition of Hayward and Boston making another run at Westbrook (especially if they land the first pick, because Markell Fultz is RWB Jr. and I could see the Thunder finding the prospect of redoing the Durant/Westbrook/Harden thing a real attraction with two lottery picks in 2018).

HomeRunBaker · Dec 1, 2016

teddykgb said:
I think it is exceptionally strange to propose trades to strengthen probably the two strongest positions on our roster (PG and C). I don't think Horford can play the 4 every night and I'm not sure why we'd want to displace Isaiah for Wall. These aren't bad players or anything, but our needs are elsewhere.

- Yeah especially in a league based around wings and perimeter isolation.

- Horford's days of playing the 4 are long gone between him losing some athleticism over the past few years and the way the game has changed with athletic stretch-4's. Take last night for example, he would have been asked to chase Tobias Harris around the perimeter for 35 minutes.

mcpickl · Dec 1, 2016

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Here’s the exercise.

Sacramento Kings get: 2017 Brooklyn Pick, Amir Johnson/Tyller Zeller (expiring contract), Marcus Smart

Washington Wizards get: 2018 Brooklyn Pick, 2019 LA Clippers first, 2019 Memphis Grizzlies first, Jonas Jerebko (expiring contract)

Do these trades entice either the Kings or Wizards to move Wall/Cousins? If so, why? If not, why not and is it possible to get them both? Is this something the Celtics would do? Why or why not?

I'd say the package for Boogie is at least one serious asset too light, even if Sacramento was ready to move him.

The package for Wall isn't close. Even if the Brooklyn pick were a guaranteed top 3 pick Washington wouldn't bite. The Clippers pick is a guaranteed non lottery pick, and a few years away. The Memphis pick is a longshot to be very valuable, and that longshot wouldn't come in until 2021. Can't see Ernie Grunfeld having the job security to gamble for a payoff that far down the road.

I don't see a way the Celtics would have enough to get both Boogie and Wall, even if they unloaded every pick and prospect they have.

HomeRunBaker · Dec 2, 2016

mcpickl said:
The Memphis pick is a longshot to be very valuable, and that longshot wouldn't come in until 2021. Can't see Ernie Grunfeld having the job security to gamble for a payoff that far down the road.

Slight tangent but I'm very excited to see Memphis enter their rebuilding years just as their unprotected #1 is conveyed to us. This has all the potential to be a Brooklyn-like coup.

Great point on GM job security. The pick is so much more valuable to us right now as it carries little trade value so far down the road for this very reason. Few if any GM's would be able to give up the value it would take to acquire it as their lifespan in that role could expire before the pick is ever made.

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