Xander Bogaerts Offense : Warmer than Orlando in January

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twibnotes

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ivanvamp said:
 
Good post.  If this thesis is true, then perhaps the most important thing the Red Sox can do as an organization in 2015 is to find THE SPOT for Xander (SS or 3b, either way) and just leave him there permanently.  
Think it also speaks to the need to give the young guys strong back ups who can spell them from time to time.


(This is why I don't see Mookie and Castillo as redundant. Plenty of abs can be had by all if Victorino/Castillo/Mookie cycle through two positions)
 

bellowthecat

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Despite how raw Xander has looked at SS throughout the season, I think it should be noted that Xander is only at -1.0 UZR in 766 innings at SS this year (0.8 UZR in 812.2 innings for his career).  IMO he should be kept at SS and given every opportunity next year to show improvement.  Also, during his essentially 3 month long slump Xander posted BABIPs of .149 in June, .286 in July, and .170 in August.  You can say those are just noise balancing out the sky high BABIP in the first two months of the season, but it looked to me like he stopped hitting line drives like he was early in the season and was getting under nearly ever ball and flying out harmlessly.  Maybe this was the wrist, maybe it was pitchers adjusting to him, maybe his mechanics were out of whack, I don't know, it could be any one or all of those things.  But I have a hard time seeing him posting BABIPs like that over half a season again and I am still very confident in his ability to be an above average player for the Red Sox going forward.
 

benhogan

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PaulinMyrBch said:
Eric would only post that chart if he could include a mystery player B, which would be Nomar's worst 60 games in his rookie year once we clicked on the spoiler tag.
commonly known as 'VANdalism'
 
It seems that either Xander was hurt, or fatigued and could have used more then a few days off.  This is where I think Farrell comes up short as a manager, he doesn't seem to control the players time/rest properly.  He hides behind the excuse that the player didn't ask out and just needs to 'play' through it...Wish he would start using the teams deep depth and farm to even out play for the regulars.
 

Harry Hooper

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We can't know for certain, but I think it was less of an injury issue and more of a confidence issue. When he started feeling for the pitch rather than swinging with conviction, he lost his zip with the bat through the hitting zone. Getting the time off for the DL stint, and not going up to the plate and staring at that batting average on the scoreboard for a few days, may have allowed him to do a reset.
 

pokey_reese

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To me the big thing that stood out, and still does, was the complete lack of walks after April/May:
 
April: 13
May: 12
June: 3
July: 3
August: 6
September: 1
 
His K numbers were fairly steady over that time, but he just stopped walking entirely for months.  Given his bad BABIP numbers during those months, one would think it was the result of pressing and expanding his zone in an attempt to hit anything, but his O-Swing% numbers are just a shade below league average (29.3% vs 31.1%), so it doesn't look like that was the case.  Actually, it's almost eerie, but his plate discipline numbers at Fangraphs are almost identical to the ML average across the board.
 
This may just be a case of a young guy who had so much success in the minors learning that big league pitchers can paint the edges much better, and so he gets caught looking at a lot more called third strikes in some ABs (leading to more Ks) and then swings at more close pitches than he did in the minors in 2-2 and 3-2 counts, reducing the walk rate.
 

joe dokes

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pokey_reese said:
To me the big thing that stood out, and still does, was the complete lack of walks after April/May:
 
April: 13
May: 12
June: 3
July: 3
August: 6
September: 1
 
His K numbers were fairly steady over that time, but he just stopped walking entirely for months.  Given his bad BABIP numbers during those months, one would think it was the result of pressing and expanding his zone in an attempt to hit anything, but his O-Swing% numbers are just a shade below league average (29.3% vs 31.1%), so it doesn't look like that was the case.  Actually, it's almost eerie, but his plate discipline numbers at Fangraphs are almost identical to the ML average across the board.
 
This may just be a case of a young guy who had so much success in the minors learning that big league pitchers can paint the edges much better, and so he gets caught looking at a lot more called third strikes in some ABs (leading to more Ks) and then swings at more close pitches than he did in the minors in 2-2 and 3-2 counts, reducing the walk rate.
 
That's a pretty good observation.
The last generational SS the Sox raised -- Nomar -- didn't walk much either. (Of course, Nomar didn't strike out very much either).
 

EricFeczko

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pokey_reese said:
To me the big thing that stood out, and still does, was the complete lack of walks after April/May:
 
April: 13
May: 12
June: 3
July: 3
August: 6
September: 1
 
His K numbers were fairly steady over that time, but he just stopped walking entirely for months.  Given his bad BABIP numbers during those months, one would think it was the result of pressing and expanding his zone in an attempt to hit anything, but his O-Swing% numbers are just a shade below league average (29.3% vs 31.1%), so it doesn't look like that was the case.  Actually, it's almost eerie, but his plate discipline numbers at Fangraphs are almost identical to the ML average across the board.
 
This may just be a case of a young guy who had so much success in the minors learning that big league pitchers can paint the edges much better, and so he gets caught looking at a lot more called third strikes in some ABs (leading to more Ks) and then swings at more close pitches than he did in the minors in 2-2 and 3-2 counts, reducing the walk rate.
I think you've hit the nail on the head RE: Xander. I think his approach, and the change in his approach over this year, reflects a young player learning the strike zone and then learning to make contact. Here's some brooksbaseball charts:
The first chart shows Xander's criterion at the plate. Criterion is an excellent measure of bias: independent of plate discipline, and for any given pitch does xander prefer to swing or not?

View attachment 580
 
We can see by this chart that Xander has become more aggressive as the season unfolds over time. Perhaps this is indicative of a player learning the MLB strikezone, in order to develop better contact skills at the plate. If so, then we should expect to see his whiffs per swing reduce over time. Alternatively, it may indicate that the player is pressing, if so then whiffs per swing should increase over time:

View attachment 581

Here we can see that Xander was whiffing the most at the beginning of the season; however, we can also see a quadratic downward trend as the season develops. In other words, as Xander has become more aggressive, he's been able to make contact. This supports the speculation that Xander was learning how to read MLB pitches, and then putting this information into practice through the season by swinging more frequently. It's a small sample size, but it culminates in better contact rates in the last two months of the season so far, which may indicate that Xander has learned to improve his hitting.

I look forward to seeing whether this carries over into next season. If the speculation is accurate, we may see a vastly improved hitter in 2015.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The MassLive story after today's game had an interesting comment about Xander's troubles at 3rd. In what almost seemed to be a throwaway comment, Jason Mastrodonato wrote (emphasis added):
 
He was uncomfortable at third base, despite how hard he tried to adjust. He tried to play it, showed up early to work with fielding instructor Brian Butterfield and took all the reps he could. But his butt wouldn't sink down far enough to properly field groundballs from third base and his throwing motion was off.

No matter the effort put in, the results didn't change much.
This tidbit was news to me but I don't get to see him play much. Any one think this is accurate?

Because if it is and Xander can't stick at short, then what position does he play?

edit: here's the link - http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2014/09/john_farrell_on_xander_bogaert.html
 

Sprowl

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
This tidbit was news to me but I don't get to see him play much. Any one think this is accurate?
 
That seems off target to me -- I didn't notice posture issues at third, only issues of inexperience, such as knowing when to go to which base with men on base. Also, I think his throws looked stronger and more direct from 3B to SS.
 
Nevertheless, it looks like he is slated to get another full season at shortstop to prove me wrong. I'm OK with that, because Marrero is shaping up to be Iggy Manque.
 

SumnerH

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smastroyin said:
 But, obviously excepting prodigal defensive players, the pivot is something you learn as you get the rhythm of your double play partner.  I don't think Xander is prodigal defensively, but he seems to have basic tools to be an average-ish defender over there
 
Prodigal means wasteful.  The biblical story of the prodigal son was notable because the son went and blew all kinds of money--so much that he was starving to death because he'd blown his savings--but then returned home and was forgiven.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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SumnerH said:
 
Prodigal means wasteful.  The biblical story of the prodigal son was notable because the son went and blew all kinds of money--so much that he was starving to death because he'd blown his savings--but then returned home and was forgiven.
 
I think smas was going for the adjective form of "prodigy", but really there isn't one. "Prodigious" has diverged in meaning too much from the noun form. "Precocious" is probably the closest thing to a match, but it's not quite right either.
 

1974pawsox

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
"Prodigious" has diverged in meaning too much from the noun form.
The first meaning of "prodigious" given by the Oxford English Dictionary is "Of the nature of a prodigy; ominous, portentious."  That seems to cover X and his defense pretty well in my book.
 

mabrowndog

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TheShynessClinic said:
Since returning from his concussion, Xander has a .998OPS.
 
After a hot first week of the year he cooled off and stood at .260/.351/.300/.651 on April 15. From there he gradually built his production back up to .304/.395/.464/.859 on June 3 by hitting .318/.409/.516/.925 during the interim 7 weeks (181 PA over 42 G).
 
Then he went ice cold for 11+ weeks. Bogaerts hit .149/.195/.215/.410 in his next 247 PA over 62 G through August 22, with a 64/12 K/BB and a .188 BABIP suggesting poor quality of contact rather than bad luck. And the eye test bore that out, as even with some shots to the gaps being snagged by great catches, and several deep drives getting caught just a foot or two short of the wall, he was popping up and grounding out quite a bit. That stretch dropped his season line to .223/.293/.333/.627, and then came that bonk on the head.
 
As you note, he's at .359/.373/.625/.998 with 10 K & 2 BB since returning (68 PA over 16 G) -- even after going 0-for-3 his first day back (@ TBR) and with three other oh-fers mixed in (2 straight @ NYY, 1 vs TOR). His K rate during that previous cold stretch was 25.5%, but it's been 14.7% post-concussion. Good signs all over, provided he sustains this progress.
 

jscola85

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mabrowndog said:
 
After a hot first week of the year he cooled off and stood at .260/.351/.300/.651 on April 15. From there he gradually built his production back up to .304/.395/.464/.859 on June 3 by hitting .318/.409/.516/.925 during the interim 7 weeks (181 PA over 42 G).
 
Then he went ice cold for 11+ weeks. Bogaerts hit .149/.195/.215/.410 in his next 247 PA over 62 G through August 22, with a 64/12 K/BB and a .188 BABIP suggesting poor quality of contact rather than bad luck. And the eye test bore that out, as even with some shots to the gaps being snagged by great catches, and several deep drives getting caught just a foot or two short of the wall, he was popping up and grounding out quite a bit. That stretch dropped his season line to .223/.293/.333/.627, and then came that bonk on the head.
 
As you note, he's at .359/.373/.625/.998 with 10 K & 2 BB since returning (68 PA over 16 G) -- even after going 0-for-3 his first day back (@ TBR) and with three other oh-fers mixed in (2 straight @ NYY, 1 vs TOR). His K rate during that previous cold stretch was 25.5%, but it's been 14.7% post-concussion. Good signs all over, provided he sustains this progress.
 
The only minor quibble is his low BB rate during the recent hot streak, but at the same time, he's cut way down on the K rate as well.  I'd rather see him not walk a lot and put a ton of balls in play than walk 8% of the time but strike out 25%.  His BABIP is .380 in that stretch, which is high, but not outrageous if he is hitting a ton of line drives.  You wouldn't expect him to normalize at a .359 batting average, but during hot streaks a .380 BABIP doesn't seem crazy.
 
One last thing to note is that at each level in the minors, Bogaerts seemed to go through a month or two of adjustments, then by month 3 or so, he just flipped a switch and started dominating pitchers.  I am not saying that's what he has done and we've suddenly got a Silver Slugger shortstop, but I do think that sometimes things can "click" and a guy will start to acclimate to a new level.  Perhaps it just took him longer to do this in the majors.
 

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jscola85 said:
The only minor quibble is his low BB rate during the recent hot streak, but at the same time, he's cut way down on the K rate as well.  I'd rather see him not walk a lot and put a ton of balls in play than walk 8% of the time but strike out 25%.  His BABIP is .380 in that stretch, which is high, but not outrageous if he is hitting a ton of line drives.  You wouldn't expect him to normalize at a .359 batting average, but during hot streaks a .380 BABIP doesn't seem crazy.
 
X hit a ton of line drives in 2013, and very few flyballs. In 2014, he has been hitting fewer line drives, and a lot of flyballs. The key to his performance this year, however, seems to be not hitting a lot of groundballs. When the grounders go up, X wOBA goes down.
 
 

O Captain! My Captain!

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jscola85 said:
 
The only minor quibble is his low BB rate during the recent hot streak, but at the same time, he's cut way down on the K rate as well.  I'd rather see him not walk a lot and put a ton of balls in play than walk 8% of the time but strike out 25%.  His BABIP is .380 in that stretch, which is high, but not outrageous if he is hitting a ton of line drives.  You wouldn't expect him to normalize at a .359 batting average, but during hot streaks a .380 BABIP doesn't seem crazy.
 
One last thing to note is that at each level in the minors, Bogaerts seemed to go through a month or two of adjustments, then by month 3 or so, he just flipped a switch and started dominating pitchers.  I am not saying that's what he has done and we've suddenly got a Silver Slugger shortstop, but I do think that sometimes things can "click" and a guy will start to acclimate to a new level.  Perhaps it just took him longer to do this in the majors.
 
His OBP is also at .373 during the streak. There's a certain point at which you're not going to walk more because you're just not getting that many pitches out of the zone, and you're swinging at the ones in the zone. We'll see how he adapts once a new book gets out on him, and pitchers challenge him less in the zone. Then, I'd expect the BA and according SLG to come down, but the OBP to stay around where it is or even increase if he's really seeing and hitting the ball well.
 

oumbi

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oumbi, on 07 Sept 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:
oumbi said:
Well, Xander seems to like the month of September. One week in and his numbers read .357/.357/.571 for the month. Which, for those of you lacking both math skills and a calculator, means his OPS for the last week has been an impressive .928.
[SIZE=13.1428575515747px] [/SIZE]
 
alwyn96 said:
 
Sweet. If he can string 24 more weeks like this together, we should be good to go. 
One down and 23 to go.
 

jscola85

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oumbi said:
 
oumbi, on 07 Sept 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:
[SIZE=13.1428575515747px] [/SIZE]
 
One down and 23 to go.
 
 
OPS has risen over 50 points in the span of 72 PAs.  Pretty impressive given how late it was in the season when the streak started.  Not as impressive as his best streak, when he improved his line from .252/.358/.346 (.694 OPS) on May 11th to .304/.389/.453 on June 3 (hit .375 during that stretch of 95 PAs), but still very encouraging nonetheless.
 
It's a shame his summer months were so deplorable, because the other three months of the year he was a very good/great hitter.  Had he just maintained a ~600 OPS during his cold snap, he would have finished the year with an OPS around .750, which probably moves him up to a 2.5-3 WAR player.  The point is, if you believe he can make his cold streaks just bad and not deplorable, he looks to be close to the player we all thought he would be at this stage of his career.
 

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jscola85 said:
 
OPS has risen over 50 points in the span of 72 PAs.  Pretty impressive given how late it was in the season when the streak started.  Not as impressive as his best streak, when he improved his line from .252/.358/.346 (.694 OPS) on May 11th to .304/.389/.453 on June 3 (hit .375 during that stretch of 95 PAs), but still very encouraging nonetheless.
 
It's a shame his summer months were so deplorable, because the other three months of the year he was a very good/great hitter.  Had he just maintained a ~600 OPS during his cold snap, he would have finished the year with an OPS around .750, which probably moves him up to a 2.5-3 WAR player.  The point is, if you believe he can make his cold streaks just bad and not deplorable, he looks to be close to the player we all thought he would be at this stage of his career.
 
When people wonder how the Red Sox can be a championship caliber team next year, a better Bogaerts is a big part of the answer. There is no question in my mind that he can make his valleys less bad and less long and that makes him a middle of the order hitter that makes this lineup just that much longer.
 

ivanvamp

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Dude is 21 years of age.  I think the odds are very good that he'll reduce his valleys and increase his peaks.  And he will end up being a tremendous offensive player, especially for his position.
 
I'm high as a kite on Bogaerts.  Betts too, of course.
 

iayork

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ivanvamp said:
Dude is 21 years of age.  I think the odds are very good that he'll reduce his valleys and increase his peaks.  And he will end up being a tremendous offensive player, especially for his position.
For what it's worth, which isn't very much, historically 21-year-old players have hit at around 85% of their career peak.  For Xander's present OPS of around 0.680, that gives him a peak of about 0.800; far from terrible at SS, but I think we're hoping for at least a little more than that.  (Near-peak production, meaning >90% of peak, tends to be sustained for quite a few years, on average, so we're talking about a player who regularly OPSes in the low to mid .700s, with a peak at around .800.) But there's easily enough variation in the numbers that a sustained .850ish OPS is perfectly reasonable to hope for.
 
 

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iayork said:
For what it's worth, which isn't very much, historically 21-year-old players have hit at around 85% of their career peak.  For Xander's present OPS of around 0.680, that gives him a peak of about 0.800; far from terrible at SS, but I think we're hoping for at least a little more than that.  (Near-peak production, meaning >90% of peak, tends to be sustained for quite a few years, on average, so we're talking about a player who regularly OPSes in the low to mid .700s, with a peak at around .800.) But there's easily enough variation in the numbers that a sustained .850ish OPS is perfectly reasonable to hope for.
 
This is really interesting, thank you.
 
I'll add that with the lower offensive environment, an 800 OPS may be very, very good. Only 17 qualified hitters at any position did that in the AL this year.
 
And if offensive levels increase as Xander ages, we might expect his OPS to increase to more than .800.
 

ALiveH

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i'll just pile on that he's hit 13 HRs in 154 big league regular season games as a 20-21 year old.  That is really pretty impressive power considering his age, position and the current offensive environment (6 ML SSs hit more than 13 HRs this year).  He's shown great plate approach & batting eye in stretches.  I'm still pretty bullish that he can be a elite offensive player for a SS.  If he ends up moving to 3B for defensive purposes, then you're talking about an elite defensive 3B (instead of an avg SS).
 

jscola85

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Hanley Ramirez is the only SS this year who is qualified for the batting title with an OPS over .800, and his is only .805.  If Bogaerts turns into Hanley Ramirez, we will all be very, very happy.
 

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iayork said:
For what it's worth, which isn't very much, historically 21-year-old players have hit at around 85% of their career peak.  For Xander's present OPS of around 0.680, that gives him a peak of about 0.800; far from terrible at SS, but I think we're hoping for at least a little more than that.  (Near-peak production, meaning >90% of peak, tends to be sustained for quite a few years, on average, so we're talking about a player who regularly OPSes in the low to mid .700s, with a peak at around .800.) But there's easily enough variation in the numbers that a sustained .850ish OPS is perfectly reasonable to hope for.
true, but that sample is probably biased in favor of those who were productive. I imagine it is rare for anyone to struggle as badly as Xander did from June through August yet remain in the big leagues.
 

iayork

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Eddie Jurak said:
true, but that sample is probably biased in favor of those who were productive. I imagine it is rare for anyone to struggle as badly as Xander did from June through August yet remain in the big leagues.
It's biased, but counterintuitively so, because this is percent of peak offense. That means that a player who only was in the majors for one season as a 21-year old would have his peak production (100%) that year.

To smooth things out a little, that chart only includes players with at least 3 years MLB experience (at least 300 AB per season), which doesn't eliminate bias but maybe changes it a bit. Also fwiw it's only players since 1950.
 
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