WS GAME thread: NYM vs. KC

Who do you want to win?


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singaporesoxfan

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rembrat said:
 
Yea, that was kinda my point. The Mets show up with a somewhat competent defense and we're looking at back to back WS losses for the Royals. That's not taking anything away from the Royals that's just the truth. But frankly I don't want to hear about how great they are. They came out of a shitty division during a down year in the AL and faced flawed teams in the postseason. 
 
I think expecting the Mets to show up with a somewhat competent defense would be to expect a totally different Mets team. This was a team, as mentioned above, that relied on pitchers missing bats covering for mediocre defense, and that was a bad match-up for what the Royals do well.
 
By most metrics the Royals were the 4th- or 5th-best team in MLB. Mets came out of an even shittier division, and were worse than the Royals throughout the season, and faced flawed teams as well. I don't think the Royals are among the great teams of the 21st century, but they were one of the less flawed teams in a year where everyone was flawed.
 

E5 Yaz

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terrisus said:
I mean, this is basically saying "It worked, so no one can criticise it."
That's a very myopic way to look at things.
 
I'm not saying you can't be critical, but that criticism has to come within context.
 
As I said, the entire sequence was filled with variables that any hypothetical situation could have changed the outcome entirely. To focus on just one such variable -- Hosmer's lead -- borders on the myopic view here.
 

loshjott

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Al Zarilla said:
Harvey had a dominant 8th inning and was only at 101 pitches after the 8th, I think. That made it 12.6 pitches per inning for him, so if he had an average inning, he would have finished at 114 or so. This was Harvey's last game of the season no matter what, so I could see letting him start the 9th. Collins defended not pulling him after the walk, saying what would have been the sense to send him out for just one batter. OK (?). Couple of interesting other similar games (ignoring who was ahead in the series) in 2010 game 4, Bochy gave Brian Wilson the 9th even though Bumgarner had a 3 hit shutout after 8 with 106 pitches. In game 5, Bochy pulled Lincecum after 8 dominant innings, a 1 run, 3 hit, 101 pitch performance, for Wilson again. But, we all know Bochy and Righetti would listen to the SP and then go with what they thought was the right decision anyway. 
 
And in last year's NLDS, Matt Williams pulled Zimmermann after a single with 2 outs in the ninth in a 1-0 game. Zimm had retired something like 18 in a row before the hit. A fresh Storen blew the save and the Nats lost in 18 innings. Williams was killed for lifting Zimm.* Managers can't win when their top relievers don't do their job.
 
 
* In fairness, Williams showed later in the series and the entire 2015 season that he deserved the criticism. 
 

E5 Yaz

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Delonte James Jr. said:
In 2002 postseason, the Angels scored 35 runs in the 7th inning onward. The 2009 Yankees, 36. This year's Royals? A record 51. Holy fuck.
 
Royals outscored the Mets 15-1 from the 7th inning on
 

terrisus

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E5 Yaz said:
 
I'm not saying you can't be critical, but that criticism has to come within context.
 
As I said, the entire sequence was filled with variables that any hypothetical situation could have changed the outcome entirely. To focus on just one such variable -- Hosmer's lead -- borders on the myopic view here.
 

We can't examine elements of a play?
So should we just come into this thread at the beginning and say "Hoping for a good game!" and at the end and say "Well done to the Royals!"
 
Yes, of course there are multiple elements at play.
To simply say "He was safe, so we can't examine any of them" is silly.
 

E5 Yaz

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terrisus said:
 
We can't examine elements of a play?
So should we just come into this thread at the beginning and say "Hoping for a good game!" and at the end and say "Well done to the Royals!"
 
Yes, of course there are multiple elements at play.
To simply say "He was safe, so we can't examine any of them" is silly.
 
Which is why I called it a fool's errand.
 
Break it down any which you you want
 

terrisus

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E5 Yaz said:
Which is why I called it a fool's errand.
 
Break it down any which you you want
 

But it's not "a fool's errand."
It's analyzing aspects of a play.
 
Again, the post I was originally replying to said:
 
Rovin Romine said:
A decent throw would have got him. Let's just say it was a very risky, borderline stupid, move that worked out well - but only because Duda choked.
Why are you not taking issues with the fact that the throw wasn't decent, and Duda did choke?
I merely replied adding some more context to what would have happened in that situation.
 

Norm Siebern

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I think Harvey is skating away free here from criticism. Everyone is blaming Collins. What about Harvey?

If you're going to play the macho "give me the ball, this is MY game" card, then you better back that up. When you don't, then you deserve to get called out on your failure. Harvey gacked that game up, not Collins. "It's MY game, give me the ball!" Give me a break. If you're gonna say it then you better do it.
 

Average Reds

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Norm Siebern said:
I think Harvey is skating away free here from criticism. Everyone is blaming Collins. What about Harvey?

If you're going to play the macho "give me the ball, this is MY game" card, then you better back that up. When you don't, then you deserve to get called out on your failure. Harvey gacked that game up, not Collins. "It's MY game, give me the ball!" Give me a break. If you're gonna say it then you better do it.
 
I don't think he skates free.  The problem is that no matter how you slice it, it's Collins' decision.
 

TheoShmeo

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Average Reds, the point on Beltran was not at all meant to be on all fours.  That series ended on a called strike three.  So did this one.  That's all. 
 
Having been at Game 7 in 2006 at Shea, I remember the silence and horror in the stands when Beltran didn't swing.  The only sounds one could hear from my vantage point in the stands were those being made by the Cardinals on the field.  That narrow aspect of what happened last night was one of my first thoughts when the game ended, not that Flores was equivalent in any way to Beltran or that the circumstances were the same.  But, in truth, I had been thinking about the other parallels before then and this just struck me as one more. 
 
Maybe that also occurred to Mets fans, maybe it didn't.  But I would be surprised if it didn't.  It's hardly scientific but some of the Mets fans I know seem a little sensitive to called strike threes to end games.  I've heard Beltran references at some pretty innocuous times.
 

glasspusher

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Rovin Romine said:
 
A decent throw would have got him.  Let's just say it was a very risky, borderline stupid, move that worked out well - but only because Duda choked. 
 
Yes- and probably figured into his gamble. He's out, the Royals' season isn't over, unlike the Mets'.
 

santadevil

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B H Kim said:


(Sorry if this was already posted earlier or elsewhere)
 
That's amazing.
 
I was wondering why they didn't pull him after the walk as well.
All Collins had to say to Harvey was that any baserunner and you're done.
Bullpen would be ready.
 

E5 Yaz

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Ned Yost, in his post-game press conference, said that this was the eighth World Series he had been a part of, and the first time his team had won.
 
In typical Ned yost fashion, Ned Yost yosted himself.
 
1982 - Brewers catcher (L)
 
1991, 1992, 1996, 1999 - Braves coaches (Ls)
 
2014 - Royals manager (L)
 
1995 - Braves coach; 2015 - Royals manager (Ws)
 

Rovin Romine

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glasspusher said:
Yes- and probably figured into his gamble. He's out, the Royals' season isn't over, unlike the Mets'.
 
Well, the outcomes were:
1) a tie game, nobody on, 2 out 
2) down a run, runner on 3rd with 1 out remaining
3) a game ending double play 
 
The Royals were up 3 games to 1.  A loss would have made it 3-2 with 2 games to play in KC. 
 
The odds really were down to the possibility Duda would botch the throw on the run home v. the possibility KC's final batter would get a hit if he stayed at 3B.  The Mets pitchers would have had 1B and 2B open, so they wouldn't have had to be especially careful and could have issued two intentional walks if necessary.  
 
I think 9 times out of 10 Duda makes the throw.  I don't know how the odds play out for KC's ability to bring Hosmer in from 3rd. 
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Rovin Romine said:
 
 
I think 9 times out of 10 Duda makes the throw.  I don't know how the odds play out for KC's ability to bring Hosmer in from 3rd. 
KC's scouts might not agree, which probably had something to do with Hosmer going:
 
 
 
"Our scouts told us that coming in: "Any time you can maybe ... " and they remember that stuff," Kuntz said. "And you go, 'Oh my god, he's really going to do it.' And then, bless Lucas' heart, he was wide left — not wide right — but wide left. That was pretty cool though."
 
Kuntz said they wouldn't have just tried a daring move like that on anybody, but Duda "is a good bat. One of those kinds of deals." Translation: K.C. wasn't concerned about his defensive ability.
 
 

Lowrielicious

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P'tucket said:
KC's scouts might not agree, which probably had something to do with Hosmer going:
 
 
 
from that article: "Eric Hosmer's mad dash home was fueled by the knowledge that Lucas Duda is not a good first baseman, David Wright's arm is weak, and the Royals were playing with house money."
 
Watching a replay of that whole play (didn't get to see the game live), I immediately thought Wright screwed up coming across Flores like that. Even though in general the 3b coming across is the better play, he has the weaker arm and worse angle watching the runner. I also agree with the earlier comment that Hosmer didn't take full advantage either as he could have got a couple of steps better secondary given Wright was moving away from him making that play. He should have been as far off the bag as Wright was away from it, which would have made him safe even if Duda made a better throw. Although even a decent (not perfect) throw should still get him in that situation.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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B H Kim said:


(Sorry if this was already posted earlier or elsewhere)
 
This reminds me of a story from one of Schilling's regular season starts at Fenway in 2004. Francona walked out to the mound and Schilling asked, "But why, Tito, why?" And Francona replied, "Because I fucking said so, that's why."
 
 
Rovin Romine said:
 
Well, the outcomes were:
1) a tie game, nobody on, 2 out 
2) down a run, runner on 3rd with 1 out remaining
3) a game ending double play 
 
The Royals were up 3 games to 1.  A loss would have made it 3-2 with 2 games to play in KC. 
 
The odds really were down to the possibility Duda would botch the throw on the run home v. the possibility KC's final batter would get a hit if he stayed at 3B.  The Mets pitchers would have had 1B and 2B open, so they wouldn't have had to be especially careful and could have issued two intentional walks if necessary.  
 
I think 9 times out of 10 Duda makes the throw.  I don't know how the odds play out for KC's ability to bring Hosmer in from 3rd. 
 
KC may have had burned child syndrome from stranding the tying run on 3rd against a dominant pitcher in last year's Game 7. If I were KC, I would have spent the last 12 months wondering why I didn't try a trick play against Bumgarner. Maybe bunt for a 2-out hit, like the A's did against us in Game 1 back in 2003. Maybe steal home. Maybe shout to the pitcher, "You're shoelace is untied," and sprint for home when he corrects your grammar. Anything but standing there with 2 outs waiting for a base hit.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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This may be the first time Yost is compared to Belichick, but this Royals team reminds me a lot of recent Patriots teams. They don't outshine the league at every position, but they are very well prepared, and they execute their game plan. Through sheer competence alone they beat down every other team who can't help but trip over their own shoelaces.
 

E5 Yaz

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kieckeredinthehead said:
This may be the first time Yost is compared to Belichick, but this Royals team reminds me a lot of recent Patriots teams. They don't outshine the league at every position, but they are very well prepared, and they execute their game plan. Through sheer competence alone they beat down every other team who can't help but trip over their own shoelaces.
 
I think that shows in both the Hosmer play and the Cain scoring from first against Jays moment (when they knew Bautista always throws to second in that situation). The preparation is impressive
 

mauidano

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E5 Yaz said:
 
I think that shows in both the Hosmer play and the Cain scoring from first against Jays moment (when they knew Bautista always throws to second in that situation). The preparation is impressive
 
Rusty Kuntz nailed it too.  Their coaches were prepared for it.  I can hardly wait for this guy to take over this stuff for the Sox!
 

Dehere

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miracleofmidre said:
Pardon me if I missed more commentary on this, but I am surprised that there isn't more criticism being levied at Collins for allowing Cespedes to finish his at-bat with the bases loaded earlier in the game after hitting the ball of his knee. Cespedes would have been an easy double play target had he not popped the ball up, he was an invalid.
If anything you may be too generous here. If Cespedes hits the ball on the ground there it's a great candidate for a triple play.
 

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Al Zarilla said:
Lot of people but pretty subdued crowd (on MLBN) compared with Red Sox, Patriots, Bruins, Giants and Warriors parades I've seen recently.
 
I am not sure it is a fair knock against their fan base because there have been zero arrests for tipping over cars and starting fires. 
 

E5 Yaz

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What strikes me is the number who turned out in the team colors
 

rembrat

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Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Ceasar, Napolean, Jonny Gomes.
 

soxhop411

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phrenile said:
Gomes's speech:

https://twitter.com/FSKansasCity/status/661649919745220608
OF course he has an American flag.... I wonder if he will wear the flag suit to the white house
 

rembrat

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Didnt Obama butcher Gomes' name back in 2013? Or was that Nap's?
 

soxhop411

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Kansas City mayor James Sly estimated that 800,000 people turned out to watch the Royals’ championship parade (at least one police sergeant thought it was higher), which is even more impressive when you realize that Kansas City’s population is just 470,000. But while it’s one thing to hear a number like 800,000, it’s quite another to see it.
 

 

 
 

 

http://deadspin.com/nearly-twice-as-many-people-as-live-in-kansas-city-watc-1740428523?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
 

Rancho Relaxo

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I just started a job in downtown Kansas City. It was insane yesterday in the best of possible ways. People were ditching cars on the highway shoulders and hoofing it to the parade. It was just so very cool to see.
 
I've lived in Kansas City 20 years or so. When I first moved here, good friends tried to convince me this really was a baseball town. Admittedly, I was skeptical. Almost every season, people would abandon the Royals as soon as the faintest whisper of football season came along. Other team's fans would dominate the stadium (aside from opening day). Fans ranged from indifferent to embittered to enraged. I used to joke that Kansas City offered the best/cheapest Red Sox tickets available. There were some lean years.
 
Worse, for so long, it didn't seem like there was a way out of it. Incompetent management. Tightwad absentee ownership. A team with a rich developmental history stripped to the bones. Overspending for mediocre talent. Draft busts. Trading away premium homegrown superstar talent to see those players flourish elsewhere (while the incoming talent didn't often measure up). Maybe it's folly. Or blind faith. Or something. But I admire those who stuck with the team (and completely understand why others didn't). And I couldn't be happier to be proven wrong -- about so many things.
 
And over the last couple of years, it has been incredible to see fans at sports bars glued to televisions (even during the regular season), to overhear people in parking lots updating each other on the latest game development, to see people so excited and happy. It's such a change from the sports atmosphere I had originally known. It's awesome.
 
For what it's worth, I'm really, really happy for the Royals and their fans. Good for them.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Rancho Relaxo's most excellent post and Gomes' mic drop made the Royals victory all the more amazing.  They deserved to win and their fans deserved it too.