WS GAME thread: NYM vs. KC

Who do you want to win?


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glasspusher

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Having someone from the MFY and sox 2004 teams on the same set of analysts should be a must. Now Millar and ARod!
 
Please, give us ARod over HR. ARod is good in the booth.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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And kudos to the KC Royals and their fans.  And its entirely possible that the Mets with a few tweaks to their bullpen and IF can be back here to face KC again next year.
 

Shane

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glasspusher said:
Having someone from the MFY and sox 2004 teams on the same set of analysts should be a must. Now Millar and ARod!
 
Please, give us ARod over HR. ARod is good in the booth.
Pains me to say this, but I agree.

The last couple years ARod has been more of an embarrassment to the MFY than anything else - it's been a while since I really hated him.
 

soxhop411

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glasspusher said:
Having someone from the MFY and sox 2004 teams on the same set of analysts should be a must. Now Millar and ARod!
 
Please, give us ARod over HR. ARod is good in the booth.
I have been campaigning for this since the playoffs started.
 

soxhop411

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Leskanic's_Thread said:
“The Mets have nothing to hold their heads down for, except they didn’t play that well and they gave away this World Series.” -Frank Thomas, assassin
 
Congrats to the Royals. An enjoyable team, and I'm happy they made New York fans sad.
That's amazing.
 

E5 Yaz

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Apisith said:
Do the Royals lose any of their key players? Gordon is a FA, right?
 
Gordon, Zobrist, Cueto, Chris Young and (injured) Greg Holland all could leave.
 

jtn46

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Wasn't able to gamethread until the game was over, but this is what I thought before the 9th...
 
The problem with giving Harvey the 9th is that Familia has been completely unable to strand runners in this series, so whatever circumstance arises that pushes Collins to take Harvey out of the game is a bad situation to bring Familia into. Collins tried to steal outs before bringing in Familia twice in 2 days and it lost him the World Series.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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One thing I'll say for Collins. He knows he fucked up and in the postgame, he owned it. Doesn't change anything, but at least he has some integrity, unlike certain managers in Red Sox history who still defend their most egregious blunders years later.
 

Hombre

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Worked out well. NY can suck it. Two painful losses icing on the cake. This KC team was remarkably resilient and deserving champions. Dayton Moore has his work cut out for him though.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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KC has been a very fun team to watch the last two seasons. Very likable group of players that give it all and never quit. They were never out if a game in the playoffs, even when down 4 in the 8th or 2 in the 9th. Very deserving champs.
 

crystalline

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jtn46 said:
Wasn't able to gamethread until the game was over, but this is what I thought before the 9th...
 
The problem with giving Harvey the 9th is that Familia has been completely unable to strand runners in this series, so whatever circumstance arises that pushes Collins to take Harvey out of the game is a bad situation to bring Familia into. Collins tried to steal outs before bringing in Familia twice in 2 days and it lost him the World Series.
Time honored trope:

Good bullpens make managers look like geniuses, and bad bullpens make managers look like fools
 

BaseballJones

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I don't really understand how the Royals were so good this year.  They had four regulars with really bad OPS+ numbers (Perez 89, Infante 49, Escobar 68, and Rios 73).  They were only 10th in MLB in team ops, and 7th in team runs scored.  So not bad, but nothing crazy good.  Their rotation wasn't great.  A bunch of pretty decent, but not great, pitchers - kind of what I think the Sox were anticipating.  10th in MLB in team ERA as a whole, but 22nd in starting pitching ERA.
 
Their real strengths were their bullpen (#2 in MLB in era), and defense.  And they seemed to just....play well.  Weird to say, but that's kind of it.  They outperformed their pythag by 5 games this year.  And think of the playoff comebacks:
 
Division Series, Game 1.  Down 4-1, came back to win 5-4, with two runs in the 6th and one more in the 7th.
Division Series, Game 4.  Down 6-2, came back to win 9-6, with five runs in the 8th and two more in the 9th.
Division Series, Game 5.  Down 2-0, came back to win 7-2, with three runs in the 5th and three more in the 8th.
Championship Series, Game 2.  Down 3-0, came back to win 6-3, with five runs in the 7th and one more in the 8th.
World Series, Game 1.  Down 4-3, came back to win 5-4, tying the game in the 9th off Familia, and then winning it in the 14th.
World Series, Game 2.  Down 1-0, came back to win 7-1, with four runs in the 5th and three more in the 8th.
World Series, Game 4.  Down 3-1, came back to win 5-3, with one run in the 6th, and three more in the 8th.
World Series, Game 5.  Down 2-0, came back to win 7-2, with two runs in the 9th, and then winning it with five runs in the 12th.
 
That's incredible.  
 

Remagellan

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MakMan44 said:
The fuck happened to the mets who played in the DS and CS?
 
 
Buster Olney nailed it before the series.  He said the Mets shaky infield defense was hidden in the first two series because the Cubs and Dodgers strike out so much.  But he warned that the Royals, who put the ball in play and strike out much less, might expose and exploit the awfulness of the Mets infield defenders.    That's certainly one prediction that was borne out in this series.
 
Collins also had a horrible series.  Familia blowing the first game is on Familia, but his puzzling usage after that is on Collins.  Using him in a Friday blowout was silly.  Not giving him a clean inning for six outs on Saturday and three outs last night cost the Mets the series.  
 

Average Reds

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Agree about Collins, but I've been told by numerous folks that I'm just engaging in second guessing and that no one could criticize Collins for letting Harvey start the 9th.

You laid it out here perfectly. His bullpen usage was atrocious and it cost the Mets.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Leskanic's_Thread said:
“The Mets have nothing to hold their heads down for, except they didn’t play that well and they gave away this World Series.” -Frank Thomas, assassin
 
Congrats to the Royals. An enjoyable team, and I'm happy they made New York fans sad.
 
edit:
https://vine.co/v/e3j2eOOT5Xx
 
I mean, heck, anybody rooting for the Mets knows he's absolutely right.
 

jackleary

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Those comebacks demonstrate the power of a dynamite bullpen. They never surrendered a run and allowed the team to come back each time. They were the better team. That said I am sick about how we played but it happens.

congrats to long suffering Royals fans and to the best team im baseball.
 

fenwaypaul

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bankshot1 said:
 
or maybe  "Murphy's Flaw"
 
This deserved some love.
 
Anyone think we'll be seeing endless replays of Murphy's game 4 error for the next 30 years whenever the Mets are on national TV? Me neither.
 

BaseballJones

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jackleary said:
Those comebacks demonstrate the power of a dynamite bullpen. They never surrendered a run and allowed the team to come back each time. They were the better team. That said I am sick about how we played but it happens.

congrats to long suffering Royals fans and to the best team im baseball.
 
Clearly the KC bullpen was incredible.  But you still need to score the runs late in the game to come back.  8 of their 11 playoff wins were comebacks.  Some, obviously, more dramatic than others, but still.  That's just amazing.  Not just great work by the bullpen, but a relentless offense, coupled with some timely gaffes by the opposition, and some terrific base running, did the trick.
 

InsideTheParker

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Gene Conleys Plane Ticket said:
One thing I'll say for Collins. He knows he fucked up and in the postgame, he owned it. Doesn't change anything, but at least he has some integrity, unlike certain managers in Red Sox history who still defend their most egregious blunders years later.
I agree with this, as someone who thought it was a bad mistake at the time. I am surprised that there are not more comments here about the folly of listening to a pitcher who is demanding things. Actually, the very fact that he is pushing his manager to change his mind puts extra pressure on him to perform and leads to mistakes. Even John Lackey yielded to John Farrell when he put his hand out for the ball. Undermining your manager is an arrogant, selfish move. Almost any closer is going to have a much better inning when he starts it himself. This was a ruinous act of weakness on Collins' part, even though I sympathize with and like the guy. I am off to the NY papers to see if he is being pilloried. I hope it's not too strong.
 

glasspusher

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I don't have my facts 100% here, but last night heard something to the effect that Harvey generated 13 swings and misses, but only 1 after the 6th inning. He wasn't quite as good at the end as he appeared.
 
Absolutely balls of steel moment by Hosmer going home in the 9th. Nobody in their right mind does that.
 

InsideTheParker

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glasspusher said:
I don't have my facts 100% here, but last night heard something to the effect that Harvey generated 13 swings and misses, but only 1 after the 6th inning. He wasn't quite as good at the end as he appeared.
 
Absolutely balls of steel moment by Hosmer going home in the 9th. Nobody in their right mind does that.
Cain with no outs against the Jays? It's their way of playing baseball, and their coaching is at the back of it, as is outlined by a great article in SI by Verducci posted somewhere here on Sosh about a week ago.
 

TheoShmeo

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This observation might have been made before so mea culpa, if so.  But it's amazing how many echoes there were in this series.
 
We had:
 
1. The Collins Grady Moments.  So yeah, sending Harvey back out there was massively more defensible than sending Pedro out for the 8th.  But who didn't immediately think back to Grady when Collins didn't remove Harvey after the walk?  Grady is in a league of his own but like Sox fans and Grady, Met fans will be second guessing Collins' decision to leave the starter in there for years.
 
2. The Hosmer and Murphy Buckner moments.  First we had Hosmer looking eerily like Buckner but mercifully getting taken off the hook and then we had another infielder have a ball go under his glove. 
 
3. The Carlos Beltran ending.  I would guess that very few Mets didn't think back to Beltran on that called strike three.
 
4. The amazing come-back from down 1-3, sort of like the 04 Sox/Yanks.  Oh, wait.... 
 

singaporesoxfan

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InsideTheParker said:
I agree with this, as someone who thought it was a bad mistake at the time. I am surprised that there are not more comments here about the folly of listening to a pitcher who is demanding things. Actually, the very fact that he is pushing his manager to change his mind puts extra pressure on him to perform and leads to mistakes. Even John Lackey yielded to John Farrell when he put his hand out for the ball. Undermining your manager is an arrogant, selfish move. Almost any closer is going to have a much better inning when he starts it himself. This was a ruinous act of weakness on Collins' part, even though I sympathize with and like the guy. I am off to the NY papers to see if he is being pilloried. I hope it's not too strong.
 
We've had the discussion of this before - obviously in 2003, but also in a different context, with the RG3 playoff game a few years back. Players almost always want to go back. I don't blame Harvey for doing that, just as I didn't blame Pedro for wanting to go back out. I don't think it's undermining the manager so much as it's part and parcel of players' competitive nature.. (As a side note, wanting to go back out also seems to have helped rescue his reputation.) It's Collins' job to listen to and then override his players, and he failed at it.
 
After all the angst this season about Harvey's innings limits, seems fitting that the Mets' season ended because Harvey pitched too much, not too little.
 

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TheoShmeo said:
This observation might have been made before so mea culpa, if so.  But it's amazing how many echoes there were in this series.
 
We had:
 
1. The Collins Grady Moments.  So yeah, sending Harvey back out there was massively more defensible than sending Pedro out for the 8th.  But who didn't immediately think back to Grady when Collins didn't remove Harvey after the walk?  Grady is in a league of his own but like Sox fans and Grady, Met fans will be second guessing Collins' decision to leave the starter in there for years.
 
2. The Hosmer and Murphy Buckner moments.  First we had Hosmer looking eerily like Buckner but mercifully getting taken off the hook and then we had another infielder have a ball go under his glove. 
 
3. The Carlos Beltran ending.  I would guess that very few Mets didn't think back to Beltran on that called strike three.
 
4. The amazing come-back from down 1-3, sort of like the 04 Sox/Yanks.  Oh, wait.... 
 
The circumstances of some of your points are very different, but I can at least understand why you stretched to make the point.  However, the bolded is one of the more ridiculous things I've seen posted here recently..
  • In the ninth inning of Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS, the Mets trailed by 2 runs and loaded the bases with two out for Carlos Beltran.  A single would have tied the game and a double would have been a walk off.
  • In the 12th inning of Game 5 of the 2015 World Series, the Mets trailed by 5 runs and put a runner on with two out for Wilmer Flores.  A home run would have pulled the Mets within 3 runs, which would have been utterly and completely meaningless.
The game was over long before Flores struck out.  If a single Mets' fan had thoughts of the 2006 NLCS, I would be shocked.
 

jtn46

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Yeah I simultaneously loved and hated that moment. Loved seeing Harvey so amped up to stay in, but hated that Collins would fuck it up and listen to him. Can't think about history or heroics in that moment as the manager, your job is to win the game. We will forever fondly remember Derek Lowe's 5.1 inning 3 ER start. When your team wins it all, what passes as heroics doesn't have to be grandslams and complete game shutouts. If the Mets pull off a comeback and win the series no one ho hums about Harvey's start yesterday if it's 8 innings instead of 9.
 

Rovin Romine

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glasspusher said:
I don't have my facts 100% here, but last night heard something to the effect that Harvey generated 13 swings and misses, but only 1 after the 6th inning. He wasn't quite as good at the end as he appeared.
 
Absolutely balls of steel moment by Hosmer going home in the 9th. Nobody in their right mind does that.
 
A decent throw would have got him.  Let's just say it was a very risky, borderline stupid, move that worked out well - but only because Duda choked. 
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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I get the second guessing of the Collins decision in 9th, but was anyone thinking the Mets had any chance to win both games 6 and 7 in KC?
 
 The Post calling this loss a disgrace is typical Post and way over the line.  Give KC some credit.  The better team won.
 

rembrat

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Lars The Wanderer said:
The Giants catch the ball. The Mets played D like they were wearing rollerskates.
 
Yea, that was kinda my point. The Mets show up with a somewhat competent defense and we're looking at back to back WS losses for the Royals. That's not taking anything away from the Royals that's just the truth. But frankly I don't want to hear about how great they are. They came out of a shitty division during a down year in the AL and faced flawed teams in the postseason. 
 

terrisus

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Rovin Romine said:
 
A decent throw would have got him.  Let's just say it was a very risky, borderline stupid, move that worked out well - but only because Duda choked. 
 
It seems to me like Hosmer could have gotten further away from the bag while the ball was being fielded/before it was thrown. He was far closer to the bag than either of the fielders were to be able to even try to get him out. Instead of getting a bigger jump, he just kind of hung out a few feet from the bag not doing much of anything until the ball was thrown to first.
 
 

E5 Yaz

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terrisus said:
 
It seems to me like Hosmer could have gotten further away from the bag while the ball was being fielded/before it was thrown. He was far closer to the bag than either of the fielders were to be able to even try to get him out. Instead of getting a bigger jump, he just kind of hung out a few feet from the bag not doing much of anything until the ball was thrown to first.
 
He has to do that; you have to see the release, or at least the throwing arm past the point of no return. That goes back to the Manny Machado play a year or two ago, when Machado held the ball and trapped the runner.
 

snowmanny

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jtn46 said:
Yeah I simultaneously loved and hated that moment. Loved seeing Harvey so amped up to stay in, but hated that Collins would fuck it up and listen to him. Can't think about history or heroics in that moment as the manager, your job is to win the game. We will forever fondly remember Derek Lowe's 5.1 inning 3 ER start. When your team wins it all, what passes as heroics doesn't have to be grandslams and complete game shutouts. If the Mets pull off a comeback and win the series no one ho hums about Harvey's start yesterday if it's 8 innings instead of 9.
What is Derek Lowe's 5.1IP 3ER start?   I do very fondly remember a couple of his (much better than that) playoff starts but that one has me stumped. 
 

terrisus

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E5 Yaz said:
 
He has to do that; you have to see the release, or at least the throwing arm past the point of no return. That goes back to the Manny Machado play a year or two ago, when Machado held the ball and trapped the runner.
 

I know he can't start running until the ball is released.
 
What I mean, though, is say hypothetically it would take a fielder 3 seconds to reach the base.
If he's only 0.5 seconds away from the base, he can get much further away from it without worrying. Get a 2-second lead and stay there until the ball is thrown.
 
*Times are for comparison purposes only, I haven't timed that off. You get the general idea, though.
 

E5 Yaz

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terrisus said:
 
I know he can't start running until the ball is released.
 
What I mean, though, is say hypothetically it would take a fielder 3 seconds to reach the base.
If he's only 0.5 seconds away from the base, he can get much further away from it without worrying. Get a 2-second lead and stay there until the ball is thrown.
 
*Times are for comparison purposes only, I haven't timed that off. You get the general idea, though.
 
He was safe. Saying if this and this had happened, he would be more safe is immaterial.
 
When I first saw the RF camera replay, it looked to me as though Wright might have confused the 3B coach for Hosmer as he turned back to "hold" the runner. Have no idea if that's true, but that also doesn't matter.
 
That play contained so many variables  -- starting with the broken bat (would it have been a single over the drawn in infield if the bat hadn't broken?) -- that trying to decipher the proper way to execute what happened is a fool's errand
 

MakMan44

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rembrat said:
 
Yea, that was kinda my point. The Mets show up with a somewhat competent defense and we're looking at back to back WS losses for the Royals. That's not taking anything away from the Royals that's just the truth. But frankly I don't want to hear about how great they are. They came out of a shitty division during a down year in the AL and faced flawed teams in the postseason. 
Impossible to say with any clarity, but I agree with the sentiment.
 
The Royals ended up winning the series because they were able to REALLY capitalize on mistakes when they mattered most. Which is what good teams do, but it doesn't excuse the fact that the Mets played shitty baseball and pissed away any chance they had at winning the series. It's a fine line to walk because I don't want to take away credit for what the Royals did but I also think that ignoring or shrugging off the Met's mistakes is silly. 
 

terrisus

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E5 Yaz said:
He was safe. Saying if this and this had happened, he would be more safe is immaterial.
I mean, this is basically saying "It worked, so no one can criticise it."
That's a very myopic way to look at things.

Moreover, that post and the previous one were in reply to a post about if he hadn't been safe/if the throw had been better.
So you'll want to take your issue back a bit further.
 

Al Zarilla

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jtn46 said:
Yeah I simultaneously loved and hated that moment. Loved seeing Harvey so amped up to stay in, but hated that Collins would fuck it up and listen to him. Can't think about history or heroics in that moment as the manager, your job is to win the game. 
Harvey had a dominant 8th inning and was only at 101 pitches after the 8th, I think. That made it 12.6 pitches per inning for him, so if he had an average inning, he would have finished at 114 or so. This was Harvey's last game of the season no matter what, so I could see letting him start the 9th. Collins defended not pulling him after the walk, saying what would have been the sense to send him out for just one batter. OK (?). Couple of interesting other similar games (ignoring who was ahead in the series) in 2010 game 4, Bochy gave Brian Wilson the 9th even though Bumgarner had a 3 hit shutout after 8 with 106 pitches. In game 5, Bochy pulled Lincecum after 8 dominant innings, a 1 run, 3 hit, 101 pitch performance, for Wilson again. But, we all know Bochy and Righetti would listen to the SP and then go with what they thought was the right decision anyway. 
 

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Pardon me if I missed more commentary on this, but I am surprised that there isn't more criticism being levied at Collins for allowing Cespedes to finish his at-bat with the bases loaded earlier in the game after hitting the ball of his knee. Cespedes would have been an easy double play target had he not popped the ball up, he was an invalid. His best-case scenario was what happened, with nothing but downside from there. While sending up a cold body to hit for Cespedes would have had other ramifications for the lineup, and may very well have been a very simple out to get for the Royals, the idea that a guy who could barely stand was left in the game puting multiple outs at risk all at once seemed like the first emasculation of the Mets' manager (or was it the trainers' call with Cespedes?). It was a very poor decision, and the Mets were lucky not to have squandered that opportunity in full based on that choice to leave him in.
 
That Harvey was able to talk his way back into the game was Collins' second offense of this type last night, not his first, in my mind.
 

Al Zarilla

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miracleofmidre said:
Pardon me if I missed more commentary on this, but I am surprised that there isn't more criticism being levied at Collins for allowing Cespedes to finish his at-bat with the bases loaded earlier in the game after hitting the ball of his knee. Cespedes would have been an easy double play target had he not popped the ball up, he was an invalid. His best-case scenario was what happened, with nothing but downside from there. While sending up a cold body to hit for Cespedes would have had other ramifications for the lineup, and may very well have been a very simple out to get for the Royals, the idea that a guy who could barely stand was left in the game puting multiple outs at risk all at once seemed like the first emasculation of the Mets' manager (or was it the trainers' call with Cespedes?). It was a very poor decision, and the Mets were lucky not to have squandered that opportunity in full based on that choice to leave him in.
 
That Harvey was able to talk his way back into the game was Collins' second offense of this type last night, not his first, in my mind.
I was somewhat surprised Collins let Cespedes finish his AB also. It was pretty shocking to see him limping that badly down the line and to the dugout. Usually after an injury , a player is allowed to, like throw a couple of pitches in the case of a pitcher injury, or, do a couple of short sprints in Cespedes' case. I don't think Cespedes did that. Collins should have required it.
 

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54thMA said:
So these assholes aren't going to get swept then; great, just great.
 
Plan B; a nutpunch game 7 loss that will leave a mark on their fanbase forever.
Ok, so it wasn't a nutpunch game 7 loss afterall.
 
It was not one, not two, but THREE blow saves by Calvin Familia..........................plus that shitshow defense.
 
Thirty years later, revenge really is a dish served cold.
 
It was delicious being in New Jersey yesterday with all the sad sack Mets fans walking around the convention with vacant looks on their faces; ie, they  knew it was all over, they weren't coming back from down 3-1.
 
It's really too bad Vince scully wasn't around to call the game Saturday night "Little roller up along second base..............and it gets by Murphy................and Moustakis scores....................AND THE ROYALS TIE IT!!!!!".........................ok, it might not have been Moustakis, but who gives a shit, you get the drift.....................
 

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@EricFisherSBJ: Overnights for World Series G5 last night - KC did a local mkt 60 and 80 share, highest since Phoenix did 62.3/80 for G7 in '01

@EricFisherSBJ: Those numbers are bonkers. Three of every 5 TV sets in KC, and four of five actually turned on, were tuned into WS game.