WS Game 7: A Curse Dies and a Curse Continues

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Leskanic's Thread

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What an epic, amazing game. I don't share the animosity toward Theo and his departure that it seems a bunch of people here do, nor do I have much bile left for Maddon now that he's out of the division. Fuck Chapman, but at least he was pushed to the edge of extreme goat status.

It's been hard to watch the celebrations, the crowd shots, and even the pre-packaged "Finally!" commercials without getting emotional thinking about when we got to experience all this in 2004. If it can't be the Sox in a given year, I want it to be a team whose fans need that same kind of release and relief that we got then. The fans in the North Side have that tonight. I'm really, really happy for them.

Now ten straight titles for the Red Sox, and then maybe a year off to let an Indians team (with only a goddamn C logo the whole time) breaking their streak.
 

CaptainLaddie

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Guys, I just drove 21 hours with my sister from New Orleans to DC and we were both thinking about pulling over around 8p and thinking about calling it a night -- but that game kept us awake and cheering for the Cubs (gotta go with Lester, Lackey, Rossy, Jed, and Theo over Tito, Nap, and Coco) for five straight hours. What a fucking game. The radio call for the Cubs was very good and I really enjoyed "watching" a game that epic and incredible on the radio. Now that I'm home I've watched a bunch of highlights and, man... just fantastic. And also, the MLB At-Bat app only crapped out on us 2 or 3 times, and only in places with horrible signal. Way better than trying to listen on AM radio the entire way.

My sister knows baseball pretty well, and we watched most of the 2004 ALCS and WS together, including G4 of the WS. It was a pretty amazing bookend to listen to this game with her, both of us clapping and cheering through the Georgia and North Carolina night. I was going to keep driving through the first three innings, then she'd take over, but I kept getting more and more amped as the game went along, and I kept driving (karma, you know). It's funny - we haven't been as close in the last few years but this drive (and this game) got us closer than we have in a long time. When we finally arrived back at my house, we had a long hug and talked about the game a bit again, watching highlights I had tagged on Twitter to watch together.

Christ, what a fucking game, man.
 

axx

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Jul 16, 2005
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BTW, Schwarber ended up hitting .412 in the series (7-17). Managed to generate runs in three of the four games he started. Not bad for a guy who missed most of the season.
 

loshjott

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Dec 30, 2004
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if Zobrist hits that semi-sharp grounder 6" to the right, it's a DP and who knows. credit to Montero as well to get that deciding insurance run in.

Indians had a golden chance in the bottom 9th, which is all you can ask for after being down 5-1 and 6-3. Top of the lineup against a burnt out Chapman. Kipnis, Lindor and Napoli basically no-showed in this game and that was fatal
With all the talk about the rain delay changing things, the Tribe's inability to do anything against a spent and shaken Chapman in the bottom of the ninth gets lost. That was the turning point.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Nov 17, 2010
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Guys, I just drove 21 hours with my sister from New Orleans to DC and we were both thinking about pulling over around 8p and thinking about calling it a night -- but that game kept us awake and cheering for the Cubs (gotta go with Lester, Lackey, Rossy, Jed, and Theo over Tito, Nap, and Coco) for five straight hours. What a fucking game. The radio call for the Cubs was very good and I really enjoyed "watching" a game that epic and incredible on the radio. Now that I'm home I've watched a bunch of highlights and, man... just fantastic. And also, the MLB At-Bat app only crapped out on us 2 or 3 times, and only in places with horrible signal. Way better than trying to listen on AM radio the entire way.

My sister knows baseball pretty well, and we watched most of the 2004 ALCS and WS together, including G4 of the WS. It was a pretty amazing bookend to listen to this game with her, both of us clapping and cheering through the Georgia and North Carolina night. I was going to keep driving through the first three innings, then she'd take over, but I kept getting more and more amped as the game went along, and I kept driving (karma, you know). It's funny - we haven't been as close in the last few years but this drive (and this game) got us closer than we have in a long time. When we finally arrived back at my house, we had a long hug and talked about the game a bit again, watching highlights I had tagged on Twitter to watch together.

Christ, what a fucking game, man.
Its not too often you get to align a historic game with a great personal event. That makes this a "I'll remember where I was when..." game for you. In 40 years, most of us will assume we were on the coach, bed, in a bar, etc.

I know it's corny, but that's great for you, man.
 

Hagios

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Dec 15, 2007
672
When Theo saw the breadth of his domain he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer.
 

Average Reds

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Sep 24, 2007
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Guys, I just drove 21 hours with my sister from New Orleans to DC and we were both thinking about pulling over around 8p and thinking about calling it a night -- but that game kept us awake and cheering for the Cubs (gotta go with Lester, Lackey, Rossy, Jed, and Theo over Tito, Nap, and Coco) for five straight hours. What a fucking game. The radio call for the Cubs was very good and I really enjoyed "watching" a game that epic and incredible on the radio. Now that I'm home I've watched a bunch of highlights and, man... just fantastic. And also, the MLB At-Bat app only crapped out on us 2 or 3 times, and only in places with horrible signal. Way better than trying to listen on AM radio the entire way.

My sister knows baseball pretty well, and we watched most of the 2004 ALCS and WS together, including G4 of the WS. It was a pretty amazing bookend to listen to this game with her, both of us clapping and cheering through the Georgia and North Carolina night. I was going to keep driving through the first three innings, then she'd take over, but I kept getting more and more amped as the game went along, and I kept driving (karma, you know). It's funny - we haven't been as close in the last few years but this drive (and this game) got us closer than we have in a long time. When we finally arrived back at my house, we had a long hug and talked about the game a bit again, watching highlights I had tagged on Twitter to watch together.

Christ, what a fucking game, man.
That's a great story. (Seriously)

Less seriously, let us know when the Folgers coffee commercial is coming out.
 

JimD

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Nov 29, 2001
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This series really made me appreciate the miracle that was 2004. Not just the ALCS comeback but the perfect confluence of performances that allowed the Sox to sweep the Cardinals. Had St. Louis come back and won game 3 or 4 and pushed that series to five games or more, I truly believe the Sox would have run out of arms. Schilling was likely done as an effective starter and we'd be looking at Wake or Pedro (probably on short rest). Who knows if the Lowe high-wire act would have finally failed or if Foulke had any bullets left?

Tito ran out of time last night, especially with Kluber and Miller. The Tribe needed to close this out in five or eventually the superior talent on the Cubs would assert itself, and sure enough it did.
 

Flunky

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Tigers fans breathe a collective sigh of relief. All those years of "not quite" from dominance in the Central just to see the Indians do it in a rando one off year. Didn't happen...

St. Louis and White Sox fans, quietly vomiting in a corner...
 

canderson

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Jul 16, 2005
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Cubs fans have lost their current identity. For Boston, it was an elusive title they had sniffed but weren't tied up in being losers. Chicago's is.
 

Blundatola

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Jun 9, 2008
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The best thing about this is that the Cubs become just another championship team. Their immense talent will either go on a winning spree, and people will tire of them, or they'll not live up to expectations and become like the Atlanta Braves ... all those division banners and one title
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Cubs fans have lost their current identity. For Boston, it was an elusive title they had sniffed but weren't tied up in being losers. Chicago's is.
Oh no! How will we ever cope?
 

Arroyo Con Frijoles

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Jul 19, 2005
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Cubs fans have lost their current identity. For Boston, it was an elusive title they had sniffed but weren't tied up in being losers. Chicago's is.
Given all the times I laughed at people saying this exact thing about the Red Sox after 2004 (your attempt at distinguishing between the teams notwithstanding), I guess I have to laugh at this too.

Regardless, even if you're right, and whatever it means to lose your "identity," I'm sure Cubs fans will take the trade.
 

Flunky

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Steve Bartman should tell anyone and everyone to fuck off.

All the "you can sleep now, Steve" twitter bullshit is just as bad as the racist stuff classy Cardinals fans hurled at Kolten Wong in 2013.
 

Hagios

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Dec 15, 2007
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Some random thoughts:

  • We've seen Playoff Tito before, but this year seemed like it really was the year of modern bullpen usage: ride your best arms in the highest leverage innings.
  • Given that, the chickens came home to roost in game 7. I think Tito made a mistake using Miller in the 7-1 game. It was a low leverage situation. "Lock up the win" is the opposite of "high leverage".
  • Will we ever see a pitcher start games 1, 4 and 7 again?
  • How will Kluber, Chapman, and Miller pitch next year? I wonder if the new bullpen mindset is going to lead to pitchers routinely getting "Foulk'd" in the playoffs.
  • Will Playoff Tito spill into regular season bullpen usage throughout the league? It would be interesting if we started to see closers come in because the heart of the order is up in the 8th.
 

ifmanis5

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Sep 29, 2007
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Ratings were HUGE: http://deadline.com/2016/11/cubs-world-series-win-ratings-fox-1201847712/

In metered market results, last night’s deciding game at Progressive Field in Cleveland hit a massive 25.2/40 rating. While not reaching the 49.0/73 result of this year’s Super Bowl, that’s the best any World Series Game 7 and in fact any MLB game has done in overnight ratings since the mega-market New York Yankees lost 3-2 to the Arizona Diamondbacks on November 4, 2001. That game got a 27.0/38 metered market rating. Last night’s Game 7 did beat the June 19 Game 7 of the NBA Finals, where the Cleveland Cavaliers defeated reigning champs the Golden State Warriors, by 33% in MM results.
 

Max Power

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MLB got lucky the game was exciting when they drew those kinds of numbers. A whole new generation of fans may have been produced with just one game.

I couldn't believe Tito let Kluber start the fourth, but he had to know Miller was cooked, too. The Indians just ran out of bullets by the end of the series. The one mistake he may have made was panicking to remove Coco's arm from the outfield with the runner on third and less than 2 out. That left the entire season riding on Michael Martinez's bat rather than Coco Crisp's. It's tough to anticipate something like that.
 

santadevil

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Rajai Davis was terrible in the field and great with the bat.
While his home run was awesome and very improbable, the Indians should have been winning when he came up to bat in the first place.

If Naquin makes the play in game 6, I believe they said he would have been starting over Davis and this game goes completely different.
Not sure if the Indians win it with Naquin in the field, but I'm sure it would've been a lot less exciting.
 

LostinNJ

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Jul 19, 2005
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Some random thoughts:

  • Will Playoff Tito spill into regular season bullpen usage throughout the league? It would be interesting if we started to see closers come in because the heart of the order is up in the 8th.
I think we will see less of that "7th inning guy," "8th inning guy" stuff. But the part about having a guy throw 2 or more innings and up to 40 pitches, that will remain a playoffs-only phenomenon.
 

Al Zarilla

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Dec 8, 2005
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I wonder what the mathematical odds of the Red Sox, White Sox and Cubs all ending droughts within 12 years period, when their prior titles were won within a decade of each other, a century before
Suddenly, or maybe not suddenly, the Indians drought is longer than the Red Sox one if we'd won it in 1986. I don't know why I keep thinking of that year and mathematical connections to it, but I do. 18 years after 1986, our drought ended, 1918. I'll go back in my hole.
 

pk1627

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Disappointed for Tito, but his team simply ran out of pitchers. I do think he stayed with Kluber too long, but I guess he had little else.

The way the Cubs came back even won me over. Good for them. Good for Chicago.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I think we will see less of that "7th inning guy," "8th inning guy" stuff. But the part about having a guy throw 2 or more innings and up to 40 pitches, that will remain a playoffs-only phenomenon.
I don't think we'll see much less of it. Not in a world where teams play 20 days in a row and you have to use all the guys in your bullpen.
 

capecodjr41

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Sep 7, 2016
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I couldn't believe Tito let Kluber start the fourth, but he had to know Miller was cooked, too. The Indians just ran out of bullets by the end of the series. The one mistake he may have made was panicking to remove Coco's arm from the outfield with the runner on third and less than 2 out. That left the entire season riding on Michael Martinez's bat rather than Coco Crisp's. It's tough to anticipate something like that.
Tito let Kluber start the 5th which was definitely a mistake I thought. He then promptly allowed a leadoff HR. It was clear Kluber was gassed on this night and he even could have pulled him with 2 outs and a man on second with Heyward batting in the 4th. He got away with the Heyward at-bat but Miller should have started the 5th, he was rested. What inning did he remove Coco? Imagine your whole season coming down to the worst hitter in baseball? In a tied winner-take-all game that could go on for awhile I don't think I would put Martinez into my lineup. Coco is too clutch, you make the defensive sacrifice.
 
Last edited:

Dahabenzapple2

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1 more comment about 'language' regarding relievers

we hear that Maddon or another manager doesn't 'TRUST' guys in the bullpen

I used to hear this bullshit regarding what Torre thought or whoever thought - often not reality based.

in this case, Maddon not using Strop or Edwards (until he absolutely had to) because he doesn't 'TRUST' them is the worst kind of idiocy/tomfoolery as both of them are excellent swing and miss high end set-up guys but because of Maddon thinking with his emotions and whatever other demons overtook him more and more as the series progressed, he's thinking contradicted reality.

of all the situations in game 7 that Maddon created to try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory (knowing that bringing Chapman into game 6 and THEN bringing him back for the 8th and THEN the 9th - all THREE of those decision as stupid and moronic managerial decisions as I've ever seen), bringing life-clinging Chapman out for the bottom of 9th was arguably even worse than pulling Hendricks after 4-2/3rds. These TWO decisions had no even half-baked justification or rationalization.

Is there ANYONE who agreed with either of them except Joe Maddon?!?!

so off the top of my head the worst 5 managerial decisions I can remember and somehow he escaped them all with 2 wins and a World Series victory.

He made Grady Little look like Connie Mack in his prime.
 

Rovin Romine

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Suddenly, or maybe not suddenly, the Indians drought is longer than the Red Sox one if we'd won it in 1986. I don't know why I keep thinking of that year and mathematical connections to it, but I do. 18 years after 1986, our drought ended, 1918. I'll go back in my hole.
I think there should be some kind of Fan Futility/Suffering index. How do we measure it though? Are repeated post-season appearances good or bad? Or are they good or bad related to the last WS win?
 

Harry Hooper

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Actually his decision making reminded me of Grady in this sense - Maddon apparently had a subjective list of "best pitchers" in his head. He then used them, regardless of whether they were gassed, in odd roles, or looked ineffective.
Apparently there were a number of relievers with coldsores in Maddon's pen.
 

capecodjr41

New Member
Sep 7, 2016
229
1 more comment about 'language' regarding relievers

we hear that Maddon or another manager doesn't 'TRUST' guys in the bullpen

I used to hear this bullshit regarding what Torre thought or whoever thought - often not reality based.

in this case, Maddon not using Strop or Edwards (until he absolutely had to) because he doesn't 'TRUST' them is the worst kind of idiocy/tomfoolery as both of them are excellent swing and miss high end set-up guys but because of Maddon thinking with his emotions and whatever other demons overtook him more and more as the series progressed, he's thinking contradicted reality.

of all the situations in game 7 that Maddon created to try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory (knowing that bringing Chapman into game 6 and THEN bringing him back for the 8th and THEN the 9th - all THREE of those decision as stupid and moronic managerial decisions as I've ever seen), bringing life-clinging Chapman out for the bottom of 9th was arguably even worse than pulling Hendricks after 4-2/3rds. These TWO decisions had no even half-baked justification or rationalization.

Is there ANYONE who agreed with either of them except Joe Maddon?!?!

so off the top of my head the worst 5 managerial decisions I can remember and somehow he escaped them all with 2 wins and a World Series victory.

He made Grady Little look like Connie Mack in his prime.
Showalter declining to use Britton in 5 instances vs. Toronto and subsequently losing the game with the best reliever in baseball on the bench was worse than anything Maddon did. However Maddon's itchy trigger finger with his starters throughout the whole series was just bizarre. Sure enough it was the first time in WS history a starter did not go 6 full innings in any game. He could write an encyclopedia on micro-management. He was totally out managed by Tito in the series but Theo stockpiled the Cubs so deep that he got away with it. This series should not have been this close. Maddon has built a huge reputation as the most "prepared" manager in the game but in this series he was totally exposed. His bullpen usage makes John Farrell look like Casey Stengel.
 

Average Reds

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1 more comment about 'language' regarding relievers

we hear that Maddon or another manager doesn't 'TRUST' guys in the bullpen

I used to hear this bullshit regarding what Torre thought or whoever thought - often not reality based.

in this case, Maddon not using Strop or Edwards (until he absolutely had to) because he doesn't 'TRUST' them is the worst kind of idiocy/tomfoolery as both of them are excellent swing and miss high end set-up guys but because of Maddon thinking with his emotions and whatever other demons overtook him more and more as the series progressed, he's thinking contradicted reality.

of all the situations in game 7 that Maddon created to try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory (knowing that bringing Chapman into game 6 and THEN bringing him back for the 8th and THEN the 9th - all THREE of those decision as stupid and moronic managerial decisions as I've ever seen), bringing life-clinging Chapman out for the bottom of 9th was arguably even worse than pulling Hendricks after 4-2/3rds. These TWO decisions had no even half-baked justification or rationalization.

Is there ANYONE who agreed with either of them except Joe Maddon?!?!

so off the top of my head the worst 5 managerial decisions I can remember and somehow he escaped them all with 2 wins and a World Series victory.

He made Grady Little look like Connie Mack in his prime.
This was a horribly managed series by Maddon. Just proved that the manager really doesn't have as much influence as we may think. (Although he sure tried.)

The one decision I will defend was bringing Chapman into Game 6 to get the last out in the 7th. I'm not saying that it's a move I would make, but that was the highest leverage spot in the game by far, and it paid off as Chapman got out of it with two ptiches.

Leaving him in for the 8th and starting the 9th with him in a 9-2 game was malpractice. And it set Chapman up for last night's near-debacle.
 

Pandemonium67

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The key at-bat was Gomes in the bottom of the 8th, two outs, man on first, three runs already in, Chapman collapsing after giving up three straight rockets. The count is 2-0, Chapman is gasping for breath, and Gomes promptly swings and misses at balls 3, 4 and 5.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Isn't that pretty much what Tito did too?
Tito had one great starter and flotsam. Maddon had 4 good to great starters. Tito needed to rely heavily on his pen to have a chance. Maddon did not, yet chose to try and prove to everyone he could match what Tito was doing. Absolute idiocy. He's lucky his over management didn't screw them out of winning.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Merritt was a good matchup against the Blue Jays on paper, not so much against the Cubs. I get that.

Coco was removed once Heyward got to 3rd in the 9th. I believe the very next pitch was that dumb foul bunt K, then the nice play by Lindor. The odds that removing Coco there matters is pretty damn low and it didn't pan out - at the same time, the chance that Martinez is your final out is also pretty low.