WS Game 7: A Curse Dies and a Curse Continues

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Hagios

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Dec 15, 2007
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Some random thoughts:

  • We've seen Playoff Tito before, but this year seemed like it really was the year of modern bullpen usage: ride your best arms in the highest leverage innings.
  • Given that, the chickens came home to roost in game 7. I think Tito made a mistake using Miller in the 7-1 game. It was a low leverage situation. "Lock up the win" is the opposite of "high leverage".
  • Will we ever see a pitcher start games 1, 4 and 7 again?
  • How will Kluber, Chapman, and Miller pitch next year? I wonder if the new bullpen mindset is going to lead to pitchers routinely getting "Foulk'd" in the playoffs.
  • Will Playoff Tito spill into regular season bullpen usage throughout the league? It would be interesting if we started to see closers come in because the heart of the order is up in the 8th.
 

ifmanis5

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Ratings were HUGE: http://deadline.com/2016/11/cubs-world-series-win-ratings-fox-1201847712/

In metered market results, last night’s deciding game at Progressive Field in Cleveland hit a massive 25.2/40 rating. While not reaching the 49.0/73 result of this year’s Super Bowl, that’s the best any World Series Game 7 and in fact any MLB game has done in overnight ratings since the mega-market New York Yankees lost 3-2 to the Arizona Diamondbacks on November 4, 2001. That game got a 27.0/38 metered market rating. Last night’s Game 7 did beat the June 19 Game 7 of the NBA Finals, where the Cleveland Cavaliers defeated reigning champs the Golden State Warriors, by 33% in MM results.
 

Max Power

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MLB got lucky the game was exciting when they drew those kinds of numbers. A whole new generation of fans may have been produced with just one game.

I couldn't believe Tito let Kluber start the fourth, but he had to know Miller was cooked, too. The Indians just ran out of bullets by the end of the series. The one mistake he may have made was panicking to remove Coco's arm from the outfield with the runner on third and less than 2 out. That left the entire season riding on Michael Martinez's bat rather than Coco Crisp's. It's tough to anticipate something like that.
 

santadevil

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Rajai Davis was terrible in the field and great with the bat.
While his home run was awesome and very improbable, the Indians should have been winning when he came up to bat in the first place.

If Naquin makes the play in game 6, I believe they said he would have been starting over Davis and this game goes completely different.
Not sure if the Indians win it with Naquin in the field, but I'm sure it would've been a lot less exciting.
 

LostinNJ

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Jul 19, 2005
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Some random thoughts:

  • Will Playoff Tito spill into regular season bullpen usage throughout the league? It would be interesting if we started to see closers come in because the heart of the order is up in the 8th.
I think we will see less of that "7th inning guy," "8th inning guy" stuff. But the part about having a guy throw 2 or more innings and up to 40 pitches, that will remain a playoffs-only phenomenon.
 

Al Zarilla

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I wonder what the mathematical odds of the Red Sox, White Sox and Cubs all ending droughts within 12 years period, when their prior titles were won within a decade of each other, a century before
Suddenly, or maybe not suddenly, the Indians drought is longer than the Red Sox one if we'd won it in 1986. I don't know why I keep thinking of that year and mathematical connections to it, but I do. 18 years after 1986, our drought ended, 1918. I'll go back in my hole.
 

pk1627

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Disappointed for Tito, but his team simply ran out of pitchers. I do think he stayed with Kluber too long, but I guess he had little else.

The way the Cubs came back even won me over. Good for them. Good for Chicago.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I think we will see less of that "7th inning guy," "8th inning guy" stuff. But the part about having a guy throw 2 or more innings and up to 40 pitches, that will remain a playoffs-only phenomenon.
I don't think we'll see much less of it. Not in a world where teams play 20 days in a row and you have to use all the guys in your bullpen.
 

capecodjr41

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Sep 7, 2016
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I couldn't believe Tito let Kluber start the fourth, but he had to know Miller was cooked, too. The Indians just ran out of bullets by the end of the series. The one mistake he may have made was panicking to remove Coco's arm from the outfield with the runner on third and less than 2 out. That left the entire season riding on Michael Martinez's bat rather than Coco Crisp's. It's tough to anticipate something like that.
Tito let Kluber start the 5th which was definitely a mistake I thought. He then promptly allowed a leadoff HR. It was clear Kluber was gassed on this night and he even could have pulled him with 2 outs and a man on second with Heyward batting in the 4th. He got away with the Heyward at-bat but Miller should have started the 5th, he was rested. What inning did he remove Coco? Imagine your whole season coming down to the worst hitter in baseball? In a tied winner-take-all game that could go on for awhile I don't think I would put Martinez into my lineup. Coco is too clutch, you make the defensive sacrifice.
 
Last edited:

Dahabenzapple2

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1 more comment about 'language' regarding relievers

we hear that Maddon or another manager doesn't 'TRUST' guys in the bullpen

I used to hear this bullshit regarding what Torre thought or whoever thought - often not reality based.

in this case, Maddon not using Strop or Edwards (until he absolutely had to) because he doesn't 'TRUST' them is the worst kind of idiocy/tomfoolery as both of them are excellent swing and miss high end set-up guys but because of Maddon thinking with his emotions and whatever other demons overtook him more and more as the series progressed, he's thinking contradicted reality.

of all the situations in game 7 that Maddon created to try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory (knowing that bringing Chapman into game 6 and THEN bringing him back for the 8th and THEN the 9th - all THREE of those decision as stupid and moronic managerial decisions as I've ever seen), bringing life-clinging Chapman out for the bottom of 9th was arguably even worse than pulling Hendricks after 4-2/3rds. These TWO decisions had no even half-baked justification or rationalization.

Is there ANYONE who agreed with either of them except Joe Maddon?!?!

so off the top of my head the worst 5 managerial decisions I can remember and somehow he escaped them all with 2 wins and a World Series victory.

He made Grady Little look like Connie Mack in his prime.
 

Rovin Romine

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Suddenly, or maybe not suddenly, the Indians drought is longer than the Red Sox one if we'd won it in 1986. I don't know why I keep thinking of that year and mathematical connections to it, but I do. 18 years after 1986, our drought ended, 1918. I'll go back in my hole.
I think there should be some kind of Fan Futility/Suffering index. How do we measure it though? Are repeated post-season appearances good or bad? Or are they good or bad related to the last WS win?
 

Harry Hooper

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Actually his decision making reminded me of Grady in this sense - Maddon apparently had a subjective list of "best pitchers" in his head. He then used them, regardless of whether they were gassed, in odd roles, or looked ineffective.
Apparently there were a number of relievers with coldsores in Maddon's pen.
 

capecodjr41

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Sep 7, 2016
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1 more comment about 'language' regarding relievers

we hear that Maddon or another manager doesn't 'TRUST' guys in the bullpen

I used to hear this bullshit regarding what Torre thought or whoever thought - often not reality based.

in this case, Maddon not using Strop or Edwards (until he absolutely had to) because he doesn't 'TRUST' them is the worst kind of idiocy/tomfoolery as both of them are excellent swing and miss high end set-up guys but because of Maddon thinking with his emotions and whatever other demons overtook him more and more as the series progressed, he's thinking contradicted reality.

of all the situations in game 7 that Maddon created to try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory (knowing that bringing Chapman into game 6 and THEN bringing him back for the 8th and THEN the 9th - all THREE of those decision as stupid and moronic managerial decisions as I've ever seen), bringing life-clinging Chapman out for the bottom of 9th was arguably even worse than pulling Hendricks after 4-2/3rds. These TWO decisions had no even half-baked justification or rationalization.

Is there ANYONE who agreed with either of them except Joe Maddon?!?!

so off the top of my head the worst 5 managerial decisions I can remember and somehow he escaped them all with 2 wins and a World Series victory.

He made Grady Little look like Connie Mack in his prime.
Showalter declining to use Britton in 5 instances vs. Toronto and subsequently losing the game with the best reliever in baseball on the bench was worse than anything Maddon did. However Maddon's itchy trigger finger with his starters throughout the whole series was just bizarre. Sure enough it was the first time in WS history a starter did not go 6 full innings in any game. He could write an encyclopedia on micro-management. He was totally out managed by Tito in the series but Theo stockpiled the Cubs so deep that he got away with it. This series should not have been this close. Maddon has built a huge reputation as the most "prepared" manager in the game but in this series he was totally exposed. His bullpen usage makes John Farrell look like Casey Stengel.
 

Average Reds

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1 more comment about 'language' regarding relievers

we hear that Maddon or another manager doesn't 'TRUST' guys in the bullpen

I used to hear this bullshit regarding what Torre thought or whoever thought - often not reality based.

in this case, Maddon not using Strop or Edwards (until he absolutely had to) because he doesn't 'TRUST' them is the worst kind of idiocy/tomfoolery as both of them are excellent swing and miss high end set-up guys but because of Maddon thinking with his emotions and whatever other demons overtook him more and more as the series progressed, he's thinking contradicted reality.

of all the situations in game 7 that Maddon created to try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory (knowing that bringing Chapman into game 6 and THEN bringing him back for the 8th and THEN the 9th - all THREE of those decision as stupid and moronic managerial decisions as I've ever seen), bringing life-clinging Chapman out for the bottom of 9th was arguably even worse than pulling Hendricks after 4-2/3rds. These TWO decisions had no even half-baked justification or rationalization.

Is there ANYONE who agreed with either of them except Joe Maddon?!?!

so off the top of my head the worst 5 managerial decisions I can remember and somehow he escaped them all with 2 wins and a World Series victory.

He made Grady Little look like Connie Mack in his prime.
This was a horribly managed series by Maddon. Just proved that the manager really doesn't have as much influence as we may think. (Although he sure tried.)

The one decision I will defend was bringing Chapman into Game 6 to get the last out in the 7th. I'm not saying that it's a move I would make, but that was the highest leverage spot in the game by far, and it paid off as Chapman got out of it with two ptiches.

Leaving him in for the 8th and starting the 9th with him in a 9-2 game was malpractice. And it set Chapman up for last night's near-debacle.
 

Pandemonium67

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The key at-bat was Gomes in the bottom of the 8th, two outs, man on first, three runs already in, Chapman collapsing after giving up three straight rockets. The count is 2-0, Chapman is gasping for breath, and Gomes promptly swings and misses at balls 3, 4 and 5.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Isn't that pretty much what Tito did too?
Tito had one great starter and flotsam. Maddon had 4 good to great starters. Tito needed to rely heavily on his pen to have a chance. Maddon did not, yet chose to try and prove to everyone he could match what Tito was doing. Absolute idiocy. He's lucky his over management didn't screw them out of winning.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Merritt was a good matchup against the Blue Jays on paper, not so much against the Cubs. I get that.

Coco was removed once Heyward got to 3rd in the 9th. I believe the very next pitch was that dumb foul bunt K, then the nice play by Lindor. The odds that removing Coco there matters is pretty damn low and it didn't pan out - at the same time, the chance that Martinez is your final out is also pretty low.
 

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

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Tito had one great starter and flotsam. Maddon had 4 good to great starters. Tito needed to rely heavily on his pen to have a chance. Maddon did not, yet chose to try and prove to everyone he could match what Tito was doing. Absolute idiocy. He's lucky his over management didn't screw them out of winning.
He had to rely heavily on his pen but still only trusted 2 1/2 guys. He also had to rely heavily on his pen because he chose to use two pieces of "flotsam"--a term I disagree with-- on short rest.
 

coremiller

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The key at-bat was Gomes in the bottom of the 8th, two outs, man on first, three runs already in, Chapman collapsing after giving up three straight rockets. The count is 2-0, Chapman is gasping for breath, and Gomes promptly swings and misses at balls 3, 4 and 5.
It was a bad AB but Gomes is a backup catcher and the #9 hitter, and he had a .527 OPS this year. He just can't hit. The sequence in the 9th inning when Cleveland's top of the order went down 1-2-3 while Chapman was afraid to throw a fastball and started lobbing 87 mph hanging sliders up there was way worse, relative to skill/expectation.
 

Hagios

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Dec 15, 2007
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I think there should be some kind of Fan Futility/Suffering index. How do we measure it though? Are repeated post-season appearances good or bad? Or are they good or bad related to the last WS win?
Good question. Something like

Sum: each season since title *(max(PWS)+ k)

Max(PWS) - the highest probability of winning a WS at any point in the season. Every team starts the season at 0.03 and the 86 Sox reached .994.

K - a constant factor for how much it hurts to have to wait another year even if the team didn't accomplish much. Probably around 0.2 or so.
 

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

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Merritt was a good matchup against the Blue Jays on paper, not so much against the Cubs. I get that.

Coco was removed once Heyward got to 3rd in the 9th. I believe the very next pitch was that dumb foul bunt K, then the nice play by Lindor. The odds that removing Coco there matters is pretty damn low and it didn't pan out - at the same time, the chance that Martinez is your final out is also pretty low.
Why was Merritt, a lefty, a good match-up on paper against the BJ's and their right handed mashers?
 

Pandemonium67

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It was a bad AB but Gomes is a backup catcher and the #9 hitter, and he had a .527 OPS this year. He just can't hit...
Which is exactly why that fucker's bat should've been glued to his shoulder. The coaches share the blame; at 2-0, Gomes should've been red-lighted.
 

Bergs

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Tito had one great starter and flotsam. Maddon had 4 good to great starters. Tito needed to rely heavily on his pen to have a chance. Maddon did not, yet chose to try and prove to everyone he could match what Tito was doing. Absolute idiocy. He's lucky his over management didn't screw them out of winning.
I might quibble about "flotsam", but 100% agree with the bolded.
 

santadevil

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Final score for the series Indians 27 Cubs 27

I'm glad I got to watch the final game of the year with my son.
Lots of plays and moments that we paused the game for a few seconds to discuss what happened.
Those are my favorite times.