Would you trade Jaylen+ for Durant?

Would you trade Jaylen+ for Durant?

  • Yes

    Votes: 123 26.3%
  • No

    Votes: 285 60.9%
  • Not Sure - this is all moving too fast for me!

    Votes: 60 12.8%

  • Total voters
    468

Cellar-Door

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My line in the sand is including Rob Williams along with Brown and Smart. When they say 1 rotation player added, they have to be talking about Rob. I'm not giving them all 3.
ROb is a hard no to me. I would consider Smart depending what else I include, that's the benefit of having White/Brogdon.
 

djbayko

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Too bad the Nets don't want just a pick package and the C's could move Al instead. It would offset a lot of the future downside.
If the Nets just wanted a pick package then the Celtics most likely aren’t in the running. It’s the Nets insisting on getting all star talent back which is narrowing the pool and giving the Celtics an edge.

Anyways, I get the sense that the Nets don’t want to contribute to turning an EC team into a monster and are only willing to trade with Boston if they can get them to overpay.
 

Cellar-Door

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If the Nets just wanted a pick package then the Celtics most likely aren’t in the running. It’s the Nets insisting on getting all star talent back which is narrowing the pool and giving the Celtics an edge.

Anyways, I get the sense that the Nets don’t want to contribute to turning an EC team into a monster and are only willing to trade with Boston if they can get them to overpay.
They basically have to, nobody in the West can reasonably give them what they want other than maybe New Orleans.

I think the simplest answer is... the Nets want to have Kevin Durant, he's a top 5 player in the league, and they don't have their own picks. They are setting a high bar so they can justify not making a trade, and hoping that once the season starts Durant changes his mind.
 

Cesar Crespo

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So Durant would be with the C's until 2026.
Tatum has a player option after the 2025 season.

Also, the C's should have plenty of cap room to build around Tatum via FA after 25/26 if they plan correctly. I guess it's possible they wouldn't need picks if the C's win some rings with Durant and players really want to play with Tatum.

Tatum's decision to re up here after 24/25 could come down to how good Durant is.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If the Nets just wanted a pick package then the Celtics most likely aren’t in the running. It’s the Nets insisting on getting all star talent back which is narrowing the pool and giving the Celtics an edge.

Anyways, I get the sense that the Nets don’t want to contribute to turning an EC team into a monster and are only willing to trade with Boston if they can get them to overpay.
Who could offer a better pick package? Anyone trading for him is probably a very good team going for a title. The picks will not be good, or they will be very far out and up to chance.

But even if that's the case, the Nets would probably pick an equal package of picks from a WC team. So yeah, the C's are at an advantage if the Nets want players.
 

Euclis20

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Who could offer a better pick package? Anyone trading for him is probably a very good team going for a title. The picks will not be good, or they will be very far out and up to chance.

But even if that's the case, the Nets would probably pick an equal package of picks from a WC team. So yeah, the C's are at an advantage if the Nets want players.
Correct that anyone trading for Durant is unlikely to be giving up a valuable 1st round pick in the next year or two, but the Nets will want 1st rounders in 3-7 years, when Durant is no longer an all-NBA guy. In that regard, the Celtics aren't a great bet for the Nets - lots of people talk about how the Heat future picks have less value than most because the Heat never seem to bottom out, but the Celtics have been in the lottery just once in the last 15 years. The Celtics are a better bet than most to be above average or better, regardless of what current players remain on the roster.
 

JM3

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Too bad the Nets don't want just a pick package and the C's could move Al instead. It would offset a lot of the future downside.

Anyway the Nets could end up with Donovan Mitchell and the Jazz end up with all our picks and Al Horford? Probably not.
If all the Nets wanted were picks the Celtics wouldn't have the best picks package to offer anyway.

I was kicking around iterations of a larger trade where it's like KD/Claxton/Harris for Jaylen/Al/Grant/picks.

That leaves a backcourt rotation of Smart/Brogdon/White/PP, adds Harris as a wing along with Tatum, KD/Gallo as 4s & TL/Claxton center duo.

For the Nets, Al could either be a good mentor for, & fit with, Simmons, or they could move him somewhere else.

Nets have been trying to get off Harris' contract, but if we trade Jaylen we lack wing depth & Harris has been a better version of what everyone is dreaming Ryan/Hauser become.

Idk, just seems like a cleaner fit all the way around.
 

the moops

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I know San Antonio really wants us to trade away Jaylen Brown and multiple first for KD though.
Meh.

2028 is a long way away. In fact, long enough that BOS could have KD for 3 years, trade him away in his last year AND TANK, and could reboot by 2028 and be back in the top 1/4 of the conference.
 

JM3

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Correct that anyone trading for Durant is unlikely to be giving up a valuable 1st round pick in the next year or two, but the Nets will want 1st rounders in 3-7 years, when Durant is no longer an all-NBA guy. In that regard, the Celtics aren't a great bet for the Nets - lots of people talk about how the Heat future picks have less value than most because the Heat never seem to bottom out, but the Celtics have been in the lottery just once in the last 15 years. The Celtics are a better bet than most to be above average or better, regardless of what current players remain on the roster.
The Raptors have all their own picks, & their salary match player is Siakam, who is much better than Al, so we really can't compete on that front.

Didn't mean to quote this post lol
 

djbayko

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They basically have to, nobody in the West can reasonably give them what they want other than maybe New Orleans.

I think the simplest answer is... the Nets want to have Kevin Durant, he's a top 5 player in the league, and they don't have their own picks. They are setting a high bar so they can justify not making a trade, and hoping that once the season starts Durant changes his mind.
What I mean is, there's a difference between trading Durant to an EC team and trading him to an EC team that is already a Vegas favorite. I bet the Nets are reluctant to do that unless they can take a couple pounds of flesh. They aren't exactly rebuilding.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Meh.

2028 is a long way away. In fact, long enough that BOS could have KD for 3 years, trade him away in his last year AND TANK, and could reboot by 2028 and be back in the top 1/4 of the conference.
This.

The NBA really feels like a league where roster building is essentially a ~two year cycle. If it doesn't work, teams reset to various degrees and move on by either paying or receiving bad contracts (in terms of fit, money or both) plus assets.

People worrying about pick swaps and other future liabilities should glance across the league - if you go back just a few seasons you can see how radically different some teams are from now. Furthermore, I may be missing something but its difficult to find examples of teams who have been stuck with an unwanted player or contract. Motivated franchises can clean up their books fairly easily as long as they are prepared to pay up for the privilege.

In short, imo a KD/Brown trade should be evaluated in terms of the next year or two. Looking at it that way makes a trade, assuming its around the rumored Cs proposal, pretty compelling for the Cs if their goal is to maximize a shot at another championship.
 

RedOctober3829

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Dude. Jaylen+Smart is too much. RWill on top of that is crazy town.
No it's not too much to me. Brown is the cost you have to give up for a guy like KD and w/r/t Smart they have Brogdon in the fold now to go with White. It's a gamble on Brogdon's health, but worrying about whether or not to keep Marcus Smart is not holding me back from getting a talent like Kevin Durant.
 

Cellar-Door

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No it's not too much to me. Brown is the cost you have to give up for a guy like KD and w/r/t Smart they have Brogdon in the fold now to go with White. It's a gamble on Brogdon's health, but worrying about whether or not to keep Marcus Smart is not holding me back from getting a talent like Kevin Durant.
I can see this. I would probably see if I could keep Smart by adding another pick or swap to White, as I think Smart is enough better, and more importantly a lot more flexible on D.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Then you have to toss in Smart, 3 1st's and another rotation guy....If the deal were Jaylen, 1st and White, I can be brought on board, but I don't see the Nets doing that deal either.
This is where I am although I’m not concerned about the picks in the late 20’s so if the Nets require 3 of them I’m ok with that. My issue is losing Smart who is a critical component of a Finals lineup. White is a luxury now that Brogdon is on board and def expendable……but I’m not on board with moving Smart.

Nobody knows Jaylens future intentions……shit, HE probably doesn’t even know. The only thing we do know is that the trade is for 4-years of cost control for the superior player compared to 2-years even if Jaylen catches up or even passes KD in the final year or two. Our window is right now!!!
 

MillarTime

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No it's not too much to me. Brown is the cost you have to give up for a guy like KD and w/r/t Smart they have Brogdon in the fold now to go with White. It's a gamble on Brogdon's health, but worrying about whether or not to keep Marcus Smart is not holding me back from getting a talent like Kevin Durant.
The Lowe Post was an excellent listen today as they walked through the Celtics roster pre and post a potential trade and the Celtics would be really thin if they give up two rotation guys in addition to JB. Zach was assuming Grant would be added to a JB/Marcus package and they projected a starting lineup of White-Tatum-Durant-Horford-Rob. The problem is that suddenly, you are really relying on Brogdan to be healthy all year and a big contribution from Gallo and PP to have a serviceable bench. That doesn't take into account that KD has his own health issues (has averaged 45 games played over past two years) and will need to be managed and Al's eventual decline. I came away wanting the Celts to stand pat assuming the initial offer of JB/White/picks doesn't get it done. Giving JB/Smart/Rob would having too meaningful an impact on our defense for my liking but I am generally risk averse.

The other point that was made was that making the trade now would also likely eliminate any opportunity to ADD a star to JT/JB down the line. Right now, they have great contracts and young players to potentially pull off such a deal should a star become available and a KD trade would dramatically reduce their future flexibility. They'd be all-in on a 2-3 year window with KD and JT and then would likely need a reboot.
 
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bakahump

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Assuming that that the Celts stand pat with a Jaylen/White/Pick or 2 offer.

This is really no hard fast lose. It just various forms of moving very luxurious Deck chairs.

You dont make the trade and we keep what is a strong core with a GREAT bench.
We make the trade and we have a Very Good to great Starting 5 with an iffy bench.

Both those iterations can win a championship. Its a maddening decision, but it maddening, because either is not a bad one.

Worse case....we dont make the Trade and Jaylen bolts after 2 more years. Wouldnt we be able to retool with Als money, Jaylens money and whatever the cap has gone up? We should probably be able to sign whoever is available around that time.....and they would probably want to come here under the assumption that that could be the piece that gets us over the hump....or come here to continue winning championships.

Or worse case we make the trade and Durant blows out in the next year or so. Thats probably the BIGGEST significantly more then 1% chance of danger I can see. Another achillies (knee/back/whatever 35yo) injury and we are screwed and headed for 3-6 seed land.

Best case we win championships with either guy (10-30% chance).
 

lovegtm

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So Durant would be with the C's until 2026.
Tatum has a player option after the 2025 season.

Also, the C's should have plenty of cap room to build around Tatum via FA after 25/26 if they plan correctly. I guess it's possible they wouldn't need picks if the C's win some rings with Durant and players really want to play with Tatum.

Tatum's decision to re up here after 24/25 could come down to how good Durant is.
Tatum will very likely be supermax eligible, and guys rarely turn that down.
 

Cellar-Door

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Assuming that that the Celts stand pat with a Jaylen/White/Pick or 2 offer.

You dont make the trade and we keep what is a strong core with a GREAT bench.
We make the trade and we have a Very Good to great Starting 5 with an iffy bench.
Just decided to map this out
53643

Basically, right now we have the same starting 5 as last year, we've upgraded Bench ballhandler/PG, which kicks down to an upgrade of Bench guard #2, we also upgraded Bench Swing #2 (or 1) we've downgraded Bench C, and have nobody in the bench wing/defender role (though Nesmith wasn't much anyway).

A KD trade if it only cost Jaylen/White/Picks, upgrades the starting 5, while downgrading Bench guard #2. Compared to last year, you'd be looking at:
Significant increase in starting 5 quality, increase in bench PG, added a good bench swing. Your weaknesses are basically what we have now... bench C and wing defender.
 

BaseballJones

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If Jaylen leaves in two years and they don’t make a deal? That gives them a two year window with this core. Given the additions they made, I think they could absolutely win the title one time in the next two years. I’d still take the field over Boston of course, but I’d like Boston’s chances as much as any other team in the NBA. If that’s the worst case scenario, it’s still a pretty damned good one.
 

Swedgin

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Who could offer a better pick package? Anyone trading for him is probably a very good team going for a title. The picks will not be good, or they will be very far out and up to chance.

But even if that's the case, the Nets would probably pick an equal package of picks from a WC team. So yeah, the C's are at an advantage if the Nets want players.
A Pels package could include the 2024 Lakers and/or 2027 Milwaukee pick, both of those could be juicy to go along with Ingram.
 

RedOctober3829

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Assuming that that the Celts stand pat with a Jaylen/White/Pick or 2 offer.

This is really no hard fast lose. It just various forms of moving very luxurious Deck chairs.

You dont make the trade and we keep what is a strong core with a GREAT bench.
We make the trade and we have a Very Good to great Starting 5 with an iffy bench.

Both those iterations can win a championship. Its a maddening decision, but it maddening, because either is not a bad one.

Worse case....we dont make the Trade and Jaylen bolts after 2 more years. Wouldnt we be able to retool with Als money, Jaylens money and whatever the cap has gone up? We should probably be able to sign whoever is available around that time.....and they would probably want to come here under the assumption that that could be the piece that gets us over the hump....or come here to continue winning championships.

Or worse case we make the trade and Durant blows out in the next year or so. Thats probably the BIGGEST significantly more then 1% chance of danger I can see. Another achillies (knee/back/whatever 35yo) injury and we are screwed and headed for 3-6 seed land.

Best case we win championships with either guy (10-30% chance).
I’d rather have the superior starting 5 and an iffy bench than great depth and and a very good starting 5. You win with stars in the nba and having KD/Tatum trumps everyone else in the league IMO. Like you said, either choice gives you a good shot at a title. I just think with KD the half court offense gets an upgrade with his play making and scoring abilities.
 

Devizier

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A Pels package could include the 2024 Lakers and/or 2027 Milwaukee pick, both of those could be juicy to go along with Ingram.
Honestly, I kind of want to see this happen just to see how Durant reacts.

My desire for the Celtics to secure this deal is based in concern at this point (i.e. they know something we don't about Jaylen's intentions in 2024).
 

Auger34

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I’d rather have the superior starting 5 and an iffy bench than great depth and and a very good starting 5. You win with stars in the nba and having KD/Tatum trumps everyone else in the league IMO. Like you said, either choice gives you a good shot at a title. I just think with KD the half court offense gets an upgrade with his play making and scoring abilities.
Not sure which package you are comfortable with but let’s say they trade Smart/JB/Grant for Durant

That’s a great team fully healthy. However, 5 of the 8 players that you’re relying on have pretty major issues with health and/or age (KD, Horford, Rob, Brogdon, Gallinari). And the 8th man in this scenario is Peyton Pritchard…
 

JM3

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I'd rather see a trade based around Durant for Zion than Ingram. I think Zion being healthy is too speculative if you're acquiring KD, & from a basketball perspective a lineup including Durant/Ingram/McCollum/HERB seems like a ton of fun to me.

I'm not sure what the exact details of that trade should look like, or if the Pels are currently able to trade Zion, but if the Celtics can't get KD for a good package, I think that's what I want to see.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Zion just extended and thus can't be traded until January, but I agree that's interesting. I don't think they are willing to bet against Zion hitting but I do wonder if that actually is a smart move for them---they would be a contender the next couple of years and avoid the risk (and admittedly alos the upside) of Zion.
 

Cellar-Door

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Zion just extended and thus can't be traded until January, but I agree that's interesting. I don't think they are willing to bet against Zion hitting but I do wonder if that actually is a smart move for them---they would be a contender the next couple of years and avoid the risk (and admittedly alos the upside) of Zion.
Zion's extension is also a designated rookie deal, and therefore he can't be traded to BKN unless Simmons is moved.
 

EvilEmpire

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Brooklyn might be able to move Simmons if he's able to show that he's willing and able to play, so maybe a mid season deal isn't the worst play. It would be good to know what they've got with Simmons before making big moves. Kevin can wait. :)
 
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HomeRunBaker

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The Lowe Post was an excellent listen today as they walked through the Celtics roster pre and post a potential trade and the Celtics would be really thin if they give up two rotation guys in addition to JB. Zach was assuming Grant would be added to a JB/Marcus package and they projected a starting lineup of White-Tatum-Durant-Horford-Rob. The problem is that suddenly, you are really relying on Brogdan to be healthy all year and a big contribution from Gallo and PP to have a serviceable bench. That doesn't take into account that KD has his own health issues (has averaged 45 games played over past two years) and will need to be managed and Al's eventual decline. I came away wanting the Celts to stand pat assuming the initial offer of JB/White/picks doesn't get it done. Giving JB/Smart/Rob would having too meaningful an impact on our defense for my liking but I am generally risk averse.

The other point that was made was that making the trade now would also likely eliminate any opportunity to ADD a star to JT/JB down the line. Right now, they have great contracts and young players to potentially pull off such a deal should a star become available and a KD trade would dramatically reduce their future flexibility. They'd be all-in on a 2-3 year window with KD and JT and then would likely need a reboot.
* Being a little thin in August shouldn’t factor if it’s replaceable rotation pieces (I don’t feel Smart is easily replaceable but others such as White, Grant, & PP certainly are). In 2008 we were thin as well until the deadline brought Cassell and PJ, each of whom were critical to some big playoff wins.

* The ability to add another star is something else that I feel is moot. We have two Top-25 players along with TL, Brogdon and Smart. Not to go all Willie McGee here but where would this so-called star play? From here until the window closes we are looking at marginal upgrades and looking to extend salary slots while managing the repeater tax.
 

RedOctober3829

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Not sure which package you are comfortable with but let’s say they trade Smart/JB/Grant for Durant

That’s a great team fully healthy. However, 5 of the 8 players that you’re relying on have pretty major issues with health and/or age (KD, Horford, Rob, Brogdon, Gallinari). And the 8th man in this scenario is Peyton Pritchard…
I’m doing JB/Smart/picks. Not willing to give up a 3rd player. Would rather up the draft pick ante.
 

nighthob

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ROb is a hard no to me. I would consider Smart depending what else I include, that's the benefit of having White/Brogdon.
There is no way that I’m betting my title contender on a team starting White and Brogdon in the back court. That’s basically making Pritchard your first G off the bench behind one really injury prone guy. And it’s not like White’s been an ironman either (although he’s JoJo White in comparison to Brogdon). 30 year old KD might be able to carry Pritchard to a title, 34 year old KD doesn’t have a prayer in Passaic of doing it.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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There is no way that I’m betting my title contender on a team starting White and Brogdon in the back court. That’s basically making Pritchard your first G off the bench behind one really injury prone guy. And it’s not like White’s been an ironman either (although he’s JoJo White in comparison to Brogdon). 30 year old KD might be able to carry Pritchard to a title, 34 year old KD doesn’t have a prayer in Passaic of doing it.
Wouldn't Tatum be the second guard in a lineup featuring TL, Al, KD, and Brogdon?
 

nighthob

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Wouldn't Tatum be the second guard in a lineup featuring TL, Al, KD, and Brogdon?
You really don’t want Tatum expending his energy chasing around smaller/quicker players the majority of the time. He’s a big wing, you’d rather he only takes the smaller guys on switches. If you’re trading for Durant and his rapidly declining D, you’re already making life on Tatum more difficult. But you’d a thousand times rather be starting Durant and Tatum in the front court than asking Durant to guard big wings and Jayson the smaller ones.
 

Cellar-Door

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There is no way that I’m betting my title contender on a team starting White and Brogdon in the back court. That’s basically making Pritchard your first G off the bench behind one really injury prone guy. And it’s not like White’s been an ironman either (although he’s JoJo White in comparison to Brogdon). 30 year old KD might be able to carry Pritchard to a title, 34 year old KD doesn’t have a prayer in Passaic of doing it.
You'd play super-big with Tatum at the 2 likely. In fact that's what I'd assume they do whether it's White or Smart going out.
Also, bench guard is where you'll find guys in FA and buyouts and the like. Lamb is still a FA, so are Bledsoe and Ellington, Bonga for a D specialist, guys like Garrison Matthews are going to get cut, and there will be buyouts (Gordon,Joseph, McConnell, Ross, Harris, Richardson, Barton, etc.).

You really don’t want Tatum expending his energy chasing around smaller/quicker players the majority of the time. He’s a big wing, you’d rather he only takes the smaller guys on switches. If you’re trading for Durant and his rapidly declining D, you’re already making life on Tatum more difficult. But you’d a thousand times rather be starting Durant and Tatum in the front court than asking Durant to guard big wings and Jayson the smaller ones.
There is no indication that Durant's D is declining at all, nevermind rapidly, this is a weird false narrative that people on this board seem to be taking as fact, he is a solidly average defender, with the tools to do more. Honestly the case has been made, and it isn't a bad one, that Durant is a better defender than Jaylen. Not sure I totally buy it (offball yes, onball probably not) but it's a conversation that's reasonable, especially with Jaylen surrounded by 4 better defenders most of the time, while Durant is playing with basically all bad defenders.

Now ideally... yeah you'd put Durant at the 4, and shift Horford to the bench (or move him for a guard) but I don't think going big is a major issue given Durant and Tatum's capabilities on D (and TLs) and the lightening of the offensive load on both. Especially since you force teams to adjust. Not many teams are going to try to exploit Tatum/Durant with small guards if that means defending them with small guards... BOS will take that trade every day.
 

Jakarta

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If the Nets insist on Smart, any chance the compromise would be to get Royce O’Neal back? He’d be great bench wing for the Celtics, but if the Nets are trying to be competitive, they may not want to trade him (and just gave up a first to acquire him).
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Purely anecdotal but I thought Durant brought it on D in the playoff series in pretty subpar circumstances, averaging 44 mpg carrying a massive offensive load with a lot of minutes going to guys like Curry, Dragic, and of course Kyrie who hadn’t a prayer of keeping up with the Celtics on D over 48 minutes.

Obviously has great length, moves well, savvy player and more likely to get a superstar whistle of course.
 

BigSoxFan

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Purely anecdotal but I thought Durant brought it on D in the playoff series in pretty subpar circumstances, averaging 44 mpg carrying a massive offensive load with a lot of minutes going to guys like Curry, Dragic, and of course Kyrie who hadn’t a prayer of keeping up with the Celtics on D over 48 minutes.

Obviously has great length, moves well, savvy player and more likely to get a superstar whistle of course.
That last line is also why I am very intrigued. Durant is lethal from the line and he gets calls. Combine him with Tatum and our late game woes likely go away.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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That last line is also why I am very intrigued. Durant is lethal from the line and he gets calls. Combine him with Tatum and our late game woes likely go away.
Imagine opposing defenses trying to figure out whom to defend between Durant and Tatum - including the personnel required to do so. Put your best defender on Durant and see what happens. Then consider the looks the rest of the lineup gets in that scenario. Its hard not to dream on how that might work.
 

BigSoxFan

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Imagine opposing defenses trying to figure out whom to defend between Durant and Tatum - including the personnel required to do so. Put your best defender on Durant and see what happens. Then consider the looks the rest of the lineup gets in that scenario. Its hard not to dream on how that might look...
And then imagine trying to get looks on the other end against these two while a DPOY roams the backcourt and another DPOY-caliber big roams the frontcourt.

C’mon Nets. Time to cave.
 

Ed Hillel

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If the Nets insist on Smart, any chance the compromise would be to get Royce O’Neal back? He’d be great bench wing for the Celtics, but if the Nets are trying to be competitive, they may not want to trade him (and just gave up a first to acquire him).
I think the guy coming back would probably be Seth Curry. Makes sense for both sides.
 

Saints Rest

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Purely anecdotal but I thought Durant brought it on D in the playoff series in pretty subpar circumstances, averaging 44 mpg carrying a massive offensive load with a lot of minutes going to guys like Curry, Dragic, and of course Kyrie who hadn’t a prayer of keeping up with the Celtics on D over 48 minutes.

Obviously has great length, moves well, savvy player and more likely to get a superstar whistle of course.
Someone in one of these threads wondered what Durant might look like in the later years of this contract. To me, at worst, Durant 2-3-4 years from now is a better version of Big Al. Tall enough to play the 5, but long enough, quick enough and savvy enough to be a switchable 4. Plus a far better shooter than Al ever dreamed of.
 

Jimbodandy

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There is no indication that Durant's D is declining at all, nevermind rapidly, this is a weird false narrative that people on this board seem to be taking as fact, he is a solidly average defender, with the tools to do more. Honestly the case has been made, and it isn't a bad one, that Durant is a better defender than Jaylen. Not sure I totally buy it (offball yes, onball probably not) but it's a conversation that's reasonable, especially with Jaylen surrounded by 4 better defenders most of the time, while Durant is playing with basically all bad defenders.
Sounds like a former politician who used to say that "a lot of people are saying" stuff. Darko doesn't agree with what you're saying. Neither does Lebron. The former has Jaylen as better than Durant on defense (like . 7 to .2) and the latter, about the same for the last two years (JB: -.56 20/21, +.34 21/22 & KD -.11 20/21, +.43 21/22).

While the argument about JB playing with better defenders is historically a compelling one, this isn't RPM that we're talking about (or Raptor, for that matter).

Some people have made the case that Durant is a better defender, but the numbers don't. Unless I'm reading this wrong, they both profile as average overall defenders. One ranks a little higher than the other on each.

edit: interesting thing about Lebron ratings, they typecast a "role" for a defender. Jaylen's has gone over the years from "Low activity" to "Point of attack" to "Chaser" to "Wing stopper". Kevin's has gone from "Low activity" to "Helper" (Lebron only goes back to 2014).
 

Cellar-Door

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Sounds like a former politician who used to say that "a lot of people are saying" stuff. Darko doesn't agree with what you're saying. Neither does Lebron. The former has Jaylen as better than Durant on defense (like . 7 to .2) and the latter, about the same for the last two years (JB: -.56 20/21, +.34 21/22 & KD -.11 20/21, +.43 21/22).

While the argument about JB playing with better defenders is historically a compelling one, this isn't RPM that we're talking about (or Raptor, for that matter).

Some people have made the case that Durant is a better defender, but the numbers don't. Unless I'm reading this wrong, they both profile as average overall defenders. One ranks a little higher than the other on each.

edit: interesting thing about Lebron ratings, they typecast a "role" for a defender. Jaylen's has gone over the years from "Low activity" to "Point of attack" to "Chaser" to "Wing stopper". Kevin's has gone from "Low activity" to "Helper" (Lebron only goes back to 2014).
So really it's only DARKO (and really only half of DARKO), LEBRON has them similar, Raptor has Jaylen better last year, Durant better the year before. I'd also note that DARKO's Box DPM has them as basically the same on defense, so the on/off (and maybe the aging curve given DARKO is predictive no descriptive) is doing a lot of work in making Jaylen look better, and that's the part that is most effected by teammates.
I went with many people are saying, rather than look up all of them, but I think I remember... Kevin O'Connor, Zach Lowe, JJ Reddick, etc. Durant is at worst an equivalent defender to Jaylen as I noted, and given his situation that's impressive (Jaylen is a 2nd option and has great rim protection and help).

I would also say that opponent shooting favors Durant (he both has a better DFG%, and holds players further below average than Jaylen. Essentially the same PPP allowed on Iso, same defending the ballhandler in PnR, off screens, Jaylen was a bit better in the post.

They grade out as essentially equivalent defenders, and in those cases I'm tempted to give it to the guy who plays with bad defenders over the one who plays with good ones.

Most importantly, I was responding to the assertion that Durant was in some steep decline on that end, which none of the number think is the case. I won't go out on some limb that Durant is clearly a better defender, my point was simply that he's not in decline, and he's not a downgrade from Brown at this point, they're stylistically a bit different, but overall very similar players on that end (and obviously Durant is a lot better on the other)
 

Jimbodandy

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So really it's only DARKO (and really only half of DARKO), LEBRON has them similar, Raptor has Jaylen better last year, Durant better the year before. I'd also note that DARKO's Box DPM has them as basically the same on defense, so the on/off (and maybe the aging curve given DARKO is predictive no descriptive) is doing a lot of work in making Jaylen look better, and that's the part that is most effected by teammates.
I went with many people are saying, rather than look up all of them, but I think I remember... Kevin O'Connor, Zach Lowe, JJ Reddick, etc. Durant is at worst an equivalent defender to Jaylen as I noted, and given his situation that's impressive (Jaylen is a 2nd option and has great rim protection and help).

I would also say that opponent shooting favors Durant (he both has a better DFG%, and holds players further below average than Jaylen. Essentially the same PPP allowed on Iso, same defending the ballhandler in PnR, off screens, Jaylen was a bit better in the post.

They grade out as essentially equivalent defenders, and in those cases I'm tempted to give it to the guy who plays with bad defenders over the one who plays with good ones.

Most importantly, I was responding to the assertion that Durant was in some steep decline on that end, which none of the number think is the case. I won't go out on some limb that Durant is clearly a better defender, my point was simply that he's not in decline, and he's not a downgrade from Brown at this point, they're stylistically a bit different, but overall very similar players on that end (and obviously Durant is a lot better on the other)
I agree with this.

I may not have noticed any references to Durant as a bad defender, as I would have disregarded that. They're comparable. Not sure how much decline there is there either, since Darko has Durant as roughly average for the last 500 games or so with a dip where his injury was. Jaylen's D-DPM is a bit of a roller-coaster, albeit on an big upcurve now. Kevin has been steady as shit.

edit: For anyone reading this who might not already know, I'm a huge Jaylenstan. I'm not hard for this leaked trade proposal to come true. But a "Durant as declining defender" take doesn't have a ton of data backing it up.
 

nighthob

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He’s gone from being a very good defensive player to an averagish one. At 34 he’s not turning back the clock. Especially not with the mounting injuries. So, yeah, he’s a declining defender (see the conversations we’ve been having about LeBron for the last 3-4 years).

Brown too often loses focus in help defense, however he’s still a pretty good man up guy, which has its advantages. But, at the end of the day, it’s not really pertinent. By sending out your two healthy guards you’re asking Durant to defend big wings full time and Tatum the smaller/quicker guys, which is a suboptimal use of resources.

There aren’t going to be any offers out there that top Brown/White/pick(s) (thanks to Ben Simmons), so I’m hoping that Boston holds the line there. But honestly I expect the Nets to Kobe Durant and that this is all a moot point. There’s no way I stripmine the roster for the 34 year old to get the Nets to deal him. Let the Nets have their 6-8 seed spots for the next four years. Couldn’t happen to a nicer franchise.
 

lovegtm

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He’s gone from being a very good defensive player to an averagish one. At 34 he’s not turning back the clock. Especially not with the mounting injuries. So, yeah, he’s a declining defender (see the conversations we’ve been having about LeBron for the last 3-4 years).

Brown too often loses focus in help defense, however he’s still a pretty good man up guy, which has its advantages. But, at the end of the day, it’s not really pertinent. By sending out your two healthy guards you’re asking Durant to defend big wings full time and Tatum the smaller/quicker guys, which is a suboptimal use of resources.

There aren’t going to be any offers out there that top Brown/White/pick(s) (thanks to Ben Simmons), so I’m hoping that Boston holds the line there. But honestly I expect the Nets to Kobe Durant and that this is all a moot point. There’s no way I stripmine the roster for the 34 year old to get the Nets to deal him. Let the Nets have their 6-8 seed spots for the next four years. Couldn’t happen to a nicer franchise.
Brown/White/1-2 picks as the line to hold makes sense.

If no one tops the offer, and the Nets feel like they have to get rid of Durant, and take it, you didn't lose depth. Smart and Grant, in particular, are important to keep. And once Durant ages, you have plenty of picks left to go get a new running mate for Tatum. You also avoid uncertainty about Jaylen's UFA, which is nice.

If the Nets don't take it, you still have a really, really good team, that is the current Vegas favorite to win it all.