Would you trade Jaylen+ for Durant?
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
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Weiss said that he heard from multiple sources that the Celtics originally made a bigger offer than Jaylen/White/pick, but backed off after it became apparent that the Suns likely couldn’t get him.
Jared Weiss was on a podcast for the athletic, and said that he heard from multiple sources that the Celtics originally made a bigger offer than Jaylen/White/pick, but backed off after it became apparent that the Suns likely couldn’t get him.
This really feels like Jaylen is getting moved, and that the Celtics either think he's gone in 2024, or don't want to pay his next contract.
At this point, I'd expect to see him dealt for a large package this season, even if a Durant deal doesn't happen.
He's a fake tough guy. He's always been known as a fake tough guy, even in NBA circles. He talks tough but doesn't back it up.
Apparently, he's one NBA player you would want to fight.
I’d lean towards agreeing, but I think the KD thing is more likely than some believe.
Jake Fischer reported the same as everyone else, Celtics definitely offered Jaylen+, but it’s been quiet for a few weeks now while the Nets figure out what they want to do. Also implied that Ingram has more value around the league than Jaylen, which caught my attention.
View: https://twitter.com/JakeLFischer/status/1551889549051183104?s=20&t=U0EPhSlhSZFA4D7Nuvv0CQ
I don’t know about NBA player fighting abilities off court, and frankly neither does anyone else, but questioning KGs BBall toughness either mentally or physically is just ridiculous. No one got in his face that I recall, and he sure commanded respect from the Cs.
No offense, but I don’t care ‘what’s known’
Looks like salaries can get there with Grant and Pritchard, with no need to include Smart or White. That is just a strict money thing though, for obviously BRK would want one of Smart or White
Well, someone else a page back said the same thing I did so it was a thing. KG had a fake tough guy rep.
Here's Udonis Haslem and KMart ripping Garnett View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1maYobZyKcA
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqnElaahho
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqnElaahho
Ok, I concede it’s a thing and respect digging out the quotes. I still think it’s utterly ridiculous.
This article actually primary makes the claim of fans calling ’ fake tough guy’ and frankly questions whether punching has anything to do with it.
Haslem and Kenyon were also very self defined braggadocio tough guys, and maybe they have some insight based on bar fights( I call pure bullshit but who knows).
From the article you linked “So we want a player who is mentally tough, physically tough, and is an outstanding defender. It appears we have come full-circle and arrived back at Kevin Garnett.”
Wait, can you explain this more?
When they realized the Suns weren’t going to get him that made them bid less because there was one less suitor? Am I reading that right?
If they think the only team that could beat the smaller offer was the Suns, why wouldn't they pull the bigger offer?
I'm the person who used it, and I think most NBA guys are fake tough guys, but that's KGs rep in particular. The point of it wasn't to knock KG, as much as to point out that just because KD doesn't yell and scream and posture for the camera doesn't mean he isn't buying in. KD's whole thing is he just plays basketball, and he plays it incredibly well and gives his all every time he's out there. KG built a rep on theatrics, and maybe that's just who he was, but do we think KG "bought in" more than Duncan, who just showed up, played great, won rings and went home? KD is a Duncan type.
I don't think it's as much about not wanting to pay his next contract as not being able to get exclusive rights to Jaylen. The NBA's Byzantine salary rules are such that contract extensions can only go to a certain percentage of the original number. Jaylen will earn $26.7 million this upcoming season, and $28.5m the next. The Celtics can extend at no more than 120% of Jaylen’s 2022-23 salary, which is about $34.2 million dollar as the starting salary, and offer no more than 8% annual raises for the remainder of the extension. That's obviously good money, but it's not max out money, which is estimated to be in the neighborhood of $40m/yr for a player of his service time in 2024. He would then be a UFA looking for a max deal and the Celtics would have no more leverage than any other suitor willing to offer him a max deal.
I'm not so sure about this: they will move Jaylen for the right price, but there aren't a whole lot of right prices out there other than getting four years of Durant in return.
Yeah, I’m wondering if the delay is in part because the Nets are trying to get the Celtics to return to their offer prior to Phoenix bowing out due to Ayton. Impossible to know but it just feels like this deal eventually has to get done, if both sides are being reasonable. The Celtics know Phoenix can’t do it, Miami can’t because of Bam, Toronto likely isn’t offering Barnes, and New Orleans remains lukewarm so far. And I doubt Durant wants to go there. And there just aren’t very many other options if Jaylen is on the table. That’s tough to beat.
Fair enough, I don’t doubt KDs toughness: he blew out an Achilles on the court trying to win and seems committed to the game.
I just really push back on that fake toughness narrative for KG. Bunch of old goons like Haslem telling me by implication that ‘they were the real tough ones’ has zero weight.
Every retiree is convinced they played Beyond the Thunderdome and were bouncing wimps off the stanchion. B. S.
Just as an FYI, Bulpett posted a sourced article (NBA GM and scouts) saying that every team discussed particulars with the Nets but that these particular league sources don’t believe that offers were ever exchanged but instead were more vague conversations about who the Nets were interested in.
I guess but if the original offer was a lot bigger than Jaylen and Derrick White, could the Suns have beat that offer even if they were in the negotiation?
That portion doesn’t pass the smell test to me. If the Celtics make an offer that’s a lot bigger than Jaylen/White/Pick then essentially no one can beat that offer IF Brooklyn was actually trying to make a deal
The more coming out about this the more it seems like Brooklyn just doesn’t want to move Durant
I like Bulpett, but he’s not nearly as tapped in as he used to be, as he was Ainge’s mouthpiece. When Shams, Woj, Fischer, Windy, Mark Murphy, KOC, Weiss, Lowe, and Washburn are all saying Jaylen is on the table, it’s definitely the case.
As for your next post, Brooklyn likely doesn’t want to trade KD, he just tried to force their hand. Them leaking the Jaylen offer to Woj tells me they are ready for teams to start negotiating with them again.
"A lot bigger" could be the above offer plus an additional pick+swaps.
Brooklyn seems to have unrealistic expectations for the eventual KD haul, and it wouldn't surprise me if they turned that down, hoping for even more.
Yeah, I was just looking at the list & came here to fact check myself. 5-way trade!
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2022/07/players-on-designated-rookie-extensions.html
Hopefully I’m not just wishcasting, but this makes a lot of sense. I believe it’s possible to discuss parameters without getting to an offer.
Boston->Brooklyn conversation : ‘Would Jaylen + White + Picks do it? No, you are looking for Smart too? Got it’
…that’s a conversation Brooklyn could leak as “offer” of Jaylen
I'm sure there are ways for GMs to have conversations that would (1) make it clear to BRK that the only true untouchable for BOS is JT but at the same time (2) allow Brad to say that he's never mentioned JB by name in a trade scenario or that he never made a true offer.
"I am calling about Durant. What would you be looking for. As you can imagine, there is really only one guy on my team who is off limits. No, its not Peyton Pritchard..... Anyway....I might be able to offer a star Wing, A backup combo guard and a first rounder. Ohh.... you thinking a defensive minded PG as well? What about Pritchard......I ked I ked....unless your interested in him? Anyway....I probably cant part with any defense right now. Sooo....... Well if you change your mind feel free to give me a call."
I read Bulpett's article, and the NBA executives he quoted anonymously were stressing how difficult it would be for the C's, or any other team, to pull off a trade for Durant without giving up so much that they'd fall out of title contention in 2022-23. If the C's acquire Durant, it's to win now.
Or, "Hey Sean, you're calling about KD? Yeah I heard, tough spot. Happy to talk and I know you know but just to remind you, JT is untouchable. You couldn't trade me your franchise for him. I know you got that. Anyone else on my end untouchable? Well, we love all of our guys. Really love them. We think we have a pretty good shot this year. But back to KD, I'm happy to keep talking but just so you know, I can't do two starters - we're in this to win it. Think about it and give me a call if you're interested in talking more."
The problem is that if the Celtics drop out of negotiations, the Nets have far less leverage against other teams to get a good Durant deal. If I'm Brad, I make one last/final offer and then stop talking to them. Boston holds a much better hand at this table and the Nets have to know this.
I listened to Lowe and Bontemps pod on this and came away thinking:
1. I agree with Lowe, the leaked offer is one I do if I'm Boston, adding too much more in terms of current players makes me think twice.
2. The Nets are in a tough spot, what they want Boston has no incentive to do, but not many other teams have the assets either.
3. A lot of how much more you're willing to give depends also on your read of Jaylen's though process on re-signing, which is impossible to tell from the outside
4. Bontemps is the highest on Jaylen Brown of anyone not blood related to him... he pulled out the old "if you watch the games he has huge impact you can't see in stats" line... which I think is untrue, I watch all the games... Jaylen Brown is properly rated by stats, if anything he gets a bit of a boost from being the worst defender in an elite defense.
My overall take is that if you can turn Jaylen, White and a pick (maybe 2 picks?) into Kevin Durant you should do it. You make your team significantly better this year, you fix your long term issue with scoring, AND you fix the issue of "who replaces Al in a year". You're title favorites this year by a good stretch, probably the next year or two as well, and you didn't totally mortgage the future.
I also think BKN never does that deal, so it's moot. They don't want to trade Durant and they are going to negotiate like it.
The fit this year might be a bit wonky (no real 2 guard, but you can play very big, and mix in Smart/Brogdon backcourts) though I think Jeremy Lamb gets real interested in bench minutes if you make this deal) but not terrible, and one way to reduce the worry about any Durant athletic decline is to move him into Al's spot long term, and bring in a new SG (maybe moving Grant and/or Pritchard?).
1. I agree with Lowe, the leaked offer is one I do if I'm Boston, adding too much more in terms of current players makes me think twice.
2. The Nets are in a tough spot, what they want Boston has no incentive to do, but not many other teams have the assets either.
3. A lot of how much more you're willing to give depends also on your read of Jaylen's though process on re-signing, which is impossible to tell from the outside
4. Bontemps is the highest on Jaylen Brown of anyone not blood related to him... he pulled out the old "if you watch the games he has huge impact you can't see in stats" line... which I think is untrue, I watch all the games... Jaylen Brown is properly rated by stats, if anything he gets a bit of a boost from being the worst defender in an elite defense.
My overall take is that if you can turn Jaylen, White and a pick (maybe 2 picks?) into Kevin Durant you should do it. You make your team significantly better this year, you fix your long term issue with scoring, AND you fix the issue of "who replaces Al in a year". You're title favorites this year by a good stretch, probably the next year or two as well, and you didn't totally mortgage the future.
I also think BKN never does that deal, so it's moot. They don't want to trade Durant and they are going to negotiate like it.
The fit this year might be a bit wonky (no real 2 guard, but you can play very big, and mix in Smart/Brogdon backcourts) though I think Jeremy Lamb gets real interested in bench minutes if you make this deal) but not terrible, and one way to reduce the worry about any Durant athletic decline is to move him into Al's spot long term, and bring in a new SG (maybe moving Grant and/or Pritchard?).
I agree with most of this. There's a piece of me, FWIW, that thinks it's also in Brooklyn's interest to let any negotiations with the Celtics drag out, as the longer they got, they more likely it is they drive a wedge between the C's and Jaylen.
Will be interesting to see how Brad manages that aspect of things.
Edit: Worth noting that Washburn had this to say today about Jaylen wanting to stay in Boston:
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The wedge thing is pretty overrated IMO. JB is tight with JT and Smart and plus, he's playing for two years from now and needs to improve his game to get the money he wants. If he's 10% better and wins a ring as the second-best player? His value goes up. In the "player empowerment era", this whole notion of loyalty, wedges, etc... is way overblown. It's all about making the most money in the best situation.
Yes and no. No one wants to be subject of trade talks for weeks on end. The fact that Jaylen is even tweeting about this at all suggests that either A) he doesn't like these rumors or B) he thinks it's a bunch of noise no one should be listening to. Either way, it's not as if he's in his pool doing workouts blissfully unaware all this is going on.
OTOH, I agree these guys have thicker skins than we probably give them credit for. He just went through a year of being told he and Tatum couldn't play together only to get them two games from a title (notably, as their best player in the Finals). Shaking my head, indeed ...
Obviously, I'm a massive Jaylen fanboy, but I think the only way you move him plus other assets for KD is if you know you're not going to be able to get him to re-sign in Boston.
Otherwise, I fail to see how this helps this team down the road. Is KD still KD at age 36 and 37 and 38? The guy is turning 34 in September. To put that in perspective, he'll be about the same age in 2 years that Al Horford is right now. KD obviously has length and shooting ability that will probably age better, but damn, if I'm watching a broken down KD at age 36, while Jaylen is somewhere else putting up 25+ppg at age 27, I'll be absolutely gutted.
I think the C's running it back with the addition of Gallo and Brogdon are more than a legit title contender. I think they're probably the favorite. Blowing it up to put a team out there with less depth, and knowing that if KD or Tatum go down, you basically have no shot just doesn't seem to make sense.
Again, unless you know Jaylen is leaving. Then it makes a ton of sense.
Otherwise, I fail to see how this helps this team down the road. Is KD still KD at age 36 and 37 and 38? The guy is turning 34 in September. To put that in perspective, he'll be about the same age in 2 years that Al Horford is right now. KD obviously has length and shooting ability that will probably age better, but damn, if I'm watching a broken down KD at age 36, while Jaylen is somewhere else putting up 25+ppg at age 27, I'll be absolutely gutted.
I think the C's running it back with the addition of Gallo and Brogdon are more than a legit title contender. I think they're probably the favorite. Blowing it up to put a team out there with less depth, and knowing that if KD or Tatum go down, you basically have no shot just doesn't seem to make sense.
Again, unless you know Jaylen is leaving. Then it makes a ton of sense.
I think the idea is that it doesn't matter what KD looks like at age 37 and 38 as long as they win a title before that.
It improves the chances while shrinking the window. I'd do the deal the C's offered. I wouldn't offer much more. Adding too many picks puts the C's in a terrible position 4 years from now. They'll need some assets to retool around Tatum or Tatum will bolt and the C's won't even have their own picks.
I'm 100% on board with this.
The most fun thing is to try to run it with your own guys. The extent to which last year's Cs team is home grown is kind of awesome--4/5ths of the rotation plus Pritchard and Grant. You can't do that forever, of course, but it's pretty cool in today's NBA.
Like any major move, you’d be making a calculated risk. The short term upside is immense. The long-term downside is also present. At this point, the Celtics don’t know Jaylen’s plans. Jaylen himself may not know. But we do know that it makes little sense for him to sign before 2024. So, the Celtics are in a position where Jaylen holds a lot of cards along with Tatum a year or two later. They may not be comfortable with that and may see Durant as a unique opportunity that you have to pounce on.
I’m not overly concerned with the Durant aging piece. As long as the doctors sign off, I’d be good. LeBron’s age 37 season was quite good and he’s a guy who relies more on athleticism than Durant. And that’s why I think Tatum/Durant pairing could be so good. Tatum is entering his physical prime soon. He can carry the load during the regular season. All the Celtics would need is for KD to be healthy by the spring. They would surely load manage him.
Too bad the Nets don't want just a pick package and the C's could move Al instead. It would offset a lot of the future downside.
Anyway the Nets could end up with Donovan Mitchell and the Jazz end up with all our picks and Al Horford? Probably not.
Anyway the Nets could end up with Donovan Mitchell and the Jazz end up with all our picks and Al Horford? Probably not.
The problem is that you'll never know this in time for it to matter. I think it's reasonable to assume that Jaylen won't extend his current deal owing to league-imposed limitations on an extension's value. The real question is whether the crap shoot of Jaylen as a UFA is worth risking, and the only way to determine that is what goes into a Jaylen+ trade package for KD.
Fixed that for you a bit. And that's what concerns me quite a bit. Durant's defensive numbers have steadily gone down in recent years. Lebron's went off a cliff.
Durant will likely always be able to score, but if TL goes down, and guys start blowing by Durant....
I just can't get my head around trading a 25 year old for a 34 year old, even recognizing that the 34 year old is one of the all time greats. Then you have to toss in Smart, 3 1st's and another rotation guy....If the deal were Jaylen, 1st and White, I can be brought on board, but I don't see the Nets doing that deal either.
Fair. But I don’t think that the Celtics would be interested if they were supremely confident of the Jay’s staying another 6-8 years together. I think the rumored offer yesterday is about as high as they’ll go. Would be shocked to see Jaylen/Smart/more sent for KD. The Celtics are in a great spot. They can get an all-timer for a reasonable price or run it back with a deeper, more talented bench.
So I get this but I'd say a few things...
1. If the goal is to win titles, KD gives you a much better chance short term, you trade the possibility he's bad at 38 for rings any day.
2. In terms of depth... I actually think (depending who goes out) that a KD trade INCREASES your chances to compete with injuries. The current team struggles with top end scoring/creation, and if Tatum is out they are toast. KD showed last year, he can drag a pretty damn bad roster by himself, if Tatum goes down you're probably still screwed, but KD has a much better chance of getting you through that than Jaylen. We talk about depth, but really what you care about most is winning more of the matchups of your best 7 guys (maybe 8). The Celtics lost the finals because Curry was much better than Tatum, and they didn't clearly win any of the other top 6 matchups. KD changes that in a way that prevents teams from doing what the Warriors did and just selling out on Tatum and knowing nobody else could consistently create and score.
3. KD will decline over the next 4 years, there is no doubt, but.... he's starting from so high, that a declining KD is probably still going to be a top 10-20 player for most (or all) of that time, the odds of Brown being better than KD at any point in the next 4 years is honestly pretty low.
I get the appeal of the infinite timeline... but that's not how the NBA works... if you don't win now, maybe Jaylen leaves, maybe he doesn't, but you take a step back... then Tatum becomes a question. There is a certain value to the idea of a 2-4 year window of having 2 of the 10-15 best players in the league.
I think the only cases for not trading Jaylen for KD are....
1. You have to gut the rest of the top 6 (which is why I think the deal won't happen, because BKN doesn't really want to move Durant and will stick to high asks)
2. Durant makes it clear to you through his agent he doesn't want to come (unlikely)
Durant might cliff on defense, but until I see it I'm not that worried, neither DARKO nor Raptor has shown any substantial decline despite carrying a huge offensive load and playing on a team with almost exclusively minus defenders, getting into a good system with good defenders and being able to avoid bad matchups will be great for him.
2 years ago Al was salary dumped & this year KD was one of the best players in the NBA. I think he had a good shot at the MVP if he hadn't gotten hurt.
It's not like Al jumped off a cliff to get to the level he was at this season - he was better than he was in his age 34 season. So not really a fair comparison.
Agree it would absolutely hurt a lot if we do the trade, don't win any titles, & Jaylen stomps us on some other team. But there's a chance that happens even if they don't do the trade.
I'd be fine with a package of picks or Jaylen Brown and a pick. Not both. Largely in part because Durant is 34 and he's not going to be around much longer. In a few years, the C's could use a pick package to land a star to replace Durant, or they'd still have Jaylen Brown and wouldn't need one.
I'm in this camp as co-fanboy for Jaylen.
To that end, hope that Marks is reading CDs posts from the last couple of days, because he surely won't be interested in a Jaylen trade if so.
What about Jaylen + 2 picks? You saying no to KD over the inclusion of one additional pick? Not saying it’s wrong but always curious about where everyone’s line in the sand is. Mine is the inclusion of Smart over White, FWIW.
My line in the sand is including Rob Williams along with Brown and Smart. When they say 1 rotation player added, they have to be talking about Rob. I'm not giving them all 3.
Maybe. I could be talked into pick swaps the years KD is here too but trading picks past KD's stay here is where I'd probably walk away.