Would you trade Jae Crowder for Rajon Rondo -- straight up?

[Koufax]

I ask the question because I can't get over how badly Danny picked the pockets of Dallas in this trade.  Now the question is not entirely fair because we have a greater need at the 3 than at the 1 right now, so let me rephrase it.  If you were starting a team and you had to pick either Crowder or Rajon as your first pick, who would you choose?  On that basis, it might be close.  However, when you consider that the Celtics also got a no. 1 pick in the trade, and what a head case Rajon can be, wow!
 
I have no ill will for Mark Cuban and think he is good for the league.  But I take pleasure in knowing that Danny outsmarted him.

 

[nighthob]

I take Jae Crowder and never think twice. Admittedly I've been a fan of his since Marquette and wanted him over Fab Melo in that draft, but still.

 

[Kliq]

I still have to take Rondo. I know he has taken a beating in this forum and he hasn't been very promising in Dallas, and Crowder has been solid for the Celtics, but Crowder's ceiling is realistically probably as the versatile sixth man on a playoff team, while Rondo's is close to being the best player in a playoff series. Has he looked like that player so far during his time in Dallas? Absolutely not. But lets not forget that Rondo is still adjusting to a new team and a new system, and yes, there are going to be headaches working the kinks out, as Rondo adjusts to a new system and the Mavs adjust to a new player. In a league that values the potential of players so much, especially in the draft, the fact that Rondo could still be a 15-8-13 player in a playoff series would outweigh his substandard play so far in Dallas.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The answer is still Rondo. 
 
It's a risk, and that in and of itself is crazy, but it's a risk every GM in the league would take all else being equal. Rondo's ceiling is far higher than Crowder's. Everybody has seen it, and every GM in basketball would take a chance at sorting Rondo out if the alternative was Crowder. 
 
Of course, once you factor contracts, free agency, and roster fit into things the picture becomes murkier. 
 
But if this is the question. . . 
 

 If you were starting a team and you had to pick either Crowder or Rajon as your first pick, who would you choose?  
 

 
. . .the answer is still Rondo. And it's not even really close. 

 

[nighthob]

2010 Rondo is gone and not coming back.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

 Admittedly I've been a fan of his since Marquette and wanted him over Fab Melo in that draft, but still.

Agreed. But it's still Rondo straight up.
 
So yes to the question.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Without contracts it is definitely Rondo. At relative prices probably Crowder. He's not that great, but he's a nice cheap rotation player while Rondo is likely getting a contract he won't live up to.

 

[luckiestman]

Without contracts it is definitely Rondo. At relative prices probably Crowder. He's not that great, but he's a nice cheap rotation player while Rondo is likely getting a contract he won't live up to.

I don't think it is definite. Crowder is at least useful off the bench. Rondo was really bad for the celtics and a lot of people blamed his team. Now he is useless for the mavs and people still don't want to believe it. The mavs are basically the same as when jameer was playing pg and that guy might be the worst guard in the league.

I wish it wasn't true, I hope he gets a triple double every night on the playoffs and wins another ring, but more and more it looks like the party is over.

 

[Koufax]

If Rondo were 22 I'd be persuaded by the argument that he has more upside.  But he's 29 and he's playing a lot worse than when he was 24 or 25.  He kills momentum with his ceaseless dribbling.  Johnny Most would have killed him for that, and for good reason.  No question he is more talented that Crowder.  Is he actually more useful to a real NBA team?  I don't think so.  That's why I think Danny picked Dallas's pocket, at least in retrospect.  At the time I suspect that Danny expected Rondo to turn on the jets while in Dallas because he would be playing with more talented teammates and, after all, it is a contract year.  But Rondo, ever the thick-skulled stubborn guy that he is, is marching to the beat of his own drummer.

 

[Devizier]

Crowder is, what, a ninth man?
 
Rondo's game has fallen very far but you'd still have to take the chance on him, all else being equal.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

I think if the choice is an expensive, average on the whole player versus a cheap player with potential upside, and 1st rounder, you take the latter every time.

Rondo was very good when he was cheap and surrounded by stars who could hide his deficiencies, but not very valuable as a main piece making a good chunk of the cap. I can't see an NBA team being very good with Rondo on a FA contract.

 

[Kliq]

You are totally right guys, who wouldn't trade Rondo straight up for a guy averaging 6-2.5-0.9? Crowder might have some upside, but it is hard to judge a guys potential when he is getting limited minutes on a terrible Celtics team. As far as real, tangible assets that can be brought to a "good" NBA team, Crowder hasn't proven anything. He was the third best thing we got in that trade from Dallas, behind the pick and Brandon Wright. 

 

[bowiac]

You are totally right guys, who wouldn't trade Rondo straight up for a guy averaging 6-2.5-0.9? Crowder might have some upside, but it is hard to judge a guys potential when he is getting limited minutes on a terrible Celtics team. As far as real, tangible assets that can be brought to a "good" NBA team, Crowder hasn't proven anything. He was the third best thing we got in that trade from Dallas, behind the pick and Brandon Wright. 

I'm not the biggest Crowder fan in the world (he gets caught out of position a lot on defense, and as result is less of a defensive asset than he should be), but Crowder has more recently been an asset to a good NBA team than Rondo has.
 
I'd probably rather have Rondo, but it's mostly a fit question at this point. He's past the "acquire talent and make it fit" part of his career.

 

[Kliq]

I'm not the biggest Crowder fan in the world (he gets caught out of position a lot on defense, and as result is less of a defensive asset than he should be), but Crowder has more recently been an asset to a good NBA team than Rondo has.
 
 

 
When was this? If we are counting Crowder averaging a 3.2-1.6-0.5 in 10mpg for Dallas as being a genuine asset, than why can't we count Rondo averaging 9-6.2-4.5 in 28mpg as being an asset for Dallas?
 
I also really like how that even though he isn't here anymore, Rondo is STILL dominating MBPC.

 

[Koufax]

I don't know much about Brandan Wright, but if he were more valuable than Jae Crowder I doubt that Danny would have dealt him for a couple of second round draft picks.  I agree that the first round pick is more valuable than Crowder, but that doesn't say where Rondo fits into the mix. 

 

[nighthob]

You are totally right guys, who wouldn't trade Rondo straight up for a guy averaging 6-2.5-0.9? Crowder might have some upside, but it is hard to judge a guys potential when he is getting limited minutes on a terrible Celtics team. As far as real, tangible assets that can be brought to a "good" NBA team, Crowder hasn't proven anything. He was the third best thing we got in that trade from Dallas, behind the pick and Brandon Wright.

I don't need to struggle to build a team around Jae Crowder and I don't need to worry about him fighting with my coach. Crowder I can just plug into the rotation and let him go. He's a roleplayer that understands that. Rondo is a roleplayer that thinks he's a star and needs to be a focal point of your offense to be of any real positive use. I'll take Crowder, thank you very much.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

It's amazing how jaded people get.  If they were on equal contracts, you got to take Rondo just for the upside.  Granted he might not ever get back to All-Star level, but at least he has a chance, which is more than we can say about Crowder.

Yes, given the money, Crowder is probably better to have, but there are a dozen of guys like Crowder who are either in the development league or otherwise available.

 

[nighthob]

The problem is that in the real world I would need to trade a useful sub-MLE rotation player for a guy that, honestly, isn't that much more useful on way over-MLE money that wants a max deal. The question wasn't about some mythical future idealised Rondo that's willing to accept an MLE deal, not fight with the coach, worked on his shooting and dedicated himself to being the player he was for about 20 games in his career. It was about choosing between the two actual players that exist today, complete with warts and salaries. I mean, sure, Mythical Rondo is always the guy you'd choose, and ideally you'd want the Yeti and Sasquatch for depth at the PF/C spots. But in the real world? Crowder will shut his mouth and do his job. And do it pretty well.

 

[Blacken]

"Pretty well" being...not well at all, but okay.

The deification of sub-average bench filler in NBA circles continually fascinates me.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The problem is that in the real world I would need to trade a useful sub-MLE rotation player for a guy that, honestly, isn't that much more useful on way over-MLE money that wants a max deal. The question wasn't about some mythical future idealised Rondo that's willing to accept an MLE deal, not fight with the coach, worked on his shooting and dedicated himself to being the player he was for about 20 games in his career. It was about choosing between the two actual players that exist today, complete with warts and salaries. I mean, sure, Mythical Rondo is always the guy you'd choose, and ideally you'd want the Yeti and Sasquatch for depth at the PF/C spots. But in the real world? Crowder will shut his mouth and do his job. And do it pretty well.

Actually, that wasnt the question. At all. The question was about a mythical reallocation draft and whether you 'd prefer Crowder or Rondo with your first round pick.

 

[nighthob]

Again, the choice here is between a roleplayer that does his job pretty well. When you look at the RAPM numbers for this year, the "not well at all" player is a net positive on both sides of the ball, while the all star point guard is a net negative on both sides of the ball. So what this would indicate is that one of those players might be one of the top 25 players at the most glutted position in the NBA, complete with attitude problems and a game that demands the entire offense be built around him, while the other guy is a lunchpail player that goes out and does his job day in and day out without complaining.

Now, if anyone were to ever offer him a Crash-style contract, I'd wish him well on his next NBA stop. But today? I have a choice between an appropriately priced roleplayer and a heavily overpriced one that wants even more. Sorry, I'm still going for the one that knows his role and is priced appropriately.

 

[nighthob]

Actually, that wasnt the question. At all. The question was about a mythical reallocation draft and whether you 'd prefer Crowder or Rondo with your first round pick.

The question was in fact about whether you would take Rondo or Crowder as they exist today. The reason for the mythical allocation draft was because in terms of trade value even Rondo's biggest cheerleaders would be at a disadvantage in any such discussion. Koufax openly states that Boston picked Dallas' pockets in the deal.

 

[bowiac]

When was this? If we are counting Crowder averaging a 3.2-1.6-0.5 in 10mpg for Dallas as being a genuine asset, than why can't we count Rondo averaging 9-6.2-4.5 in 28mpg as being an asset for Dallas?

Because you can't tell anything from those counting stats? Rondo's been terribly inefficient for Dallas, shooting the ball awful (but doing it a lot!), not generating many assists, but continuing to turn the ball over, not rebounding, and doing it for a team that doesn't need help with shot creation or good looks.
 
Crowder's 15 minutes per game were limited obviously, but he was a good energy player at the end of the rotation for Dallas. He was an actual asset in a limited role. Rondo has just hurt the Mavs on the other hand.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The question was in fact about whether you would take Rondo or Crowder as they exist today. The reason for the mythical allocation draft was because in terms of trade value even Rondo's biggest cheerleaders would be at a disadvantage in any such discussion. Koufax openly states that Boston picked Dallas' pockets in the deal.

 
The question was: 

If you were starting a team and you had to pick either Crowder or Rajon as your first pick, who would you choose?
 

 
You said: 
 

The question wasn't about some mythical future idealised Rondo that's willing to accept an MLE deal, not fight with the coach, worked on his shooting and dedicated himself to being the player he was for about 20 games in his career. It was about choosing between the two actual players that exist today, complete with warts and salaries.
 

 
There's nothing in Koufax's question about current salaries being carried into this mythical allocation draft. In fact, it seems like the whole point behind the draft concept is to make all things equal between the players in a way that the question in the thread title doesn't. So if Rondo's salary is one of the elements that muddies the discussion of this topic as a straight up trade, isn't it a pretty safe assumption that the draft concept was chosen specifically to remove those sorts of considerations?

 

[zenter]

Infuriating, stubborn, arrogant, and uneven as he is, Rondo is a starting PG in the NBA. Period.
Crowder is a 8-10th man sparkplug on most teams - a D-League star type.
 
The premise of this thread leaves open too many variables, as mentioned above.
 
So if the question is: in a salary-blind fantasy draft, where would you take Rondo and where would you take Crowder? I'd take Rondo well ahead of Crowder.
OTOH, if we're asking whether Crowder is a better fit for what the talent-lite C's are now? Then the answer is, yes, Crowder is a better fit. It may also be true that Rondo is a bad fit for the Mavs.
 
Last point, overlooked so far. Rondo is very intelligent, intense, arrogant, and stubborn, not to mention introverted. This impacts his ability to adapt to a new system with an intelligent, stubborn coach. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

 

[crystalline]

Last point, overlooked so far. Rondo is very intelligent, intense, arrogant, and stubborn, not to mention introverted. This impacts his ability to adapt to a new system with an intelligent, stubborn coach. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

Yeah. This is going to be an interesting ride. Boston never seemed to challenge Rondo, at least publicly. We heard rumors that Doc and Ray Allen (who?) had clashed with him, but those were all a few years ago and in recent years Rondo had looked like he wasn't trying very hard.
Let's see if the Mavs can break him down and get him focused. They might succeed. Or they may fail and cut him loose, putting Rondo on a bad team next year with no desire to work on his shot- in which case I think he has a sad ride as he slowly slides out of the league over a few years.
We'll know soon, I think. A public argument followed by suspension is pretty much the definition of things coming to a head.

 

[nighthob]

The question was

No, the question was

Would you trade Jae Crowder for Rajon Rondo -- straight up?

I ask the question because I can't get over how badly Danny picked the pockets of Dallas in this trade.  Now the question is not entirely fair because we have a greater need at the 3 than at the 1 right now, so let me rephrase it.  If you were starting a team and you had to pick either Crowder or Rajon as your first pick, who would you choose?  On that basis, it might be close.

The thread title is implicitly part of the larger question, because the very first sentence is a continuation of the topic. And he starts by granting that he can't discuss the actual trade because Boston came out so far ahead, so he wants to limit the discussion to strictly Crowder v. Rondo. There is no mythical, idealised Rondo on a production appropriate contract dedicated to being the guy he was for about 20 games in his career. It's Rondo as is v. Crowder as is.

 

[luckiestman]

Infuriating, stubborn, arrogant, and uneven as he is, Rondo is a starting PG in the NBA. Period.
 

 
 
I don't agree. If you didnt know his history  and he was on the Celtics, you would be pissed off if he was playing over Smart or IT. That's how bad he is now. 
 
The Celtics are one of the worst teams in the league and Rondo would be the third best PG on this team. 

 

[Koufax]

FWIW, I did present the question with a blind eye towards their salaries.  Nighthob's remarks capture my sentiments nicely.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

FWIW, I did present the question with a blind eye towards their salaries.  Nighthob's remarks capture my sentiments nicely.

 
That's fine, but it's not really that interesting of a question because I think everyone on this board would rather have the salary cap space than Rondo.  Thus, people really would pick a bag of balls over Rondo right now.
 
How 'bout if we switch the question most of us were answering.  Would you rather pay Crowder or Rondo $11M for this year?  I'd still take Rondo.  Crowder would be someone I would buy-out.
 
 

Let's see if the Mavs can break him down and get him focused. They might succeed. Or they may fail and cut him loose, putting Rondo on a bad team next year with no desire to work on his shot- in which case I think he has a sad ride as he slowly slides out of the league over a few years.
 

 
One thing the original article said was that Rondo was working with Dirk's shooting coach on his shot.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Serious question with no snark intended:

If 2015 Rondo is the "new" Rondo, what exactly does he do well?

He doesn't get to the line and when he does, he's abysmal at making them. He doesn't make 3's so he hurts spacing. He's no longer an elite guard rebounder. He's only shooting 40% from the field. He dominates the ball and is absolutely useless without it. He's not Kyrie Irving on defense but he's not a major impact player there either. And he's incredibly moody.

Simply put, if I'm starting a team, why do I want Rondo as my starting PG? I think Rondo vs. Crowder is closer than it seems and I'm not a huge over-the-top Crowder guy. I just think that this version of Rondo is mediocre and possibly worse.

He's definitely an elite guard rebounder. He's 2nd of the 93 guards with enough minutes to qualify in TRB%, he's 6th in AST%, he does two things very well for his position, get the ball to men in good scoring spots and rebound. He's been much better on defense since going to the Mavs, he's above league average.
The rest of his game is a mess, and he kills your spacing.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Are those his Dallas rates or BOS/DAL total?

total. His Dallas splits alone would drop him to 9th, 3rd among PGs.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

 
That's fine, but it's not really that interesting of a question because I think everyone on this board would rather have the salary cap space than Rondo.  Thus, people really would pick a bag of balls over Rondo right now.
 
How 'bout if we switch the question most of us were answering.  Would you rather pay Crowder or Rondo $11M for this year?  I'd still take Rondo.  Crowder would be someone I would buy-out.
 

 
I think that if that's what you want the question to be, it's a good topic for a new thread. There's way too much scope creep here. It's bordering on non-sequitur to discuss other variables. 
 
The question was, however, would you adjust the trade to be even less favorable to the Celtics, i.e., instead of Rondo for Crowder, salary relief, a 1st, and what turned into another second and a potential 1st, would you instead trade a soon-to-be-free agent making $13MM in a rebuilding year, for someone making peanuts who could potentially be a good rotation player going forward. 
 
Related to the actual question, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't trade an expiring asset who's a distraction on a few levels in the rebuilding process for something that could have actual value to the team past this season. Any other hypothetical questions are fodder for a new thread discussing fantasy situations.

 

[nighthob]

That's fine, but it's not really that interesting of a question because I think everyone on this board would rather have the salary cap space than Rondo.  Thus, people really would pick a bag of balls over Rondo right now.
 
How 'bout if we switch the question most of us were answering.  Would you rather pay Crowder or Rondo $11M for this year?  I'd still take Rondo.  Crowder would be someone I would buy-out.

Neither one of them are worth $11 million. So I'm left choosing the more productive player of the two. And that ain't Rondo (sad to say).

 

[moly99]

Crowder is, what, a ninth man?
 
Rondo's game has fallen very far but you'd still have to take the chance on him, all else being equal.

 
I think this is a major difference point between viewers of the league, and the modern fight over how to view players.
 
A dead weight starter is less valuable than a quality role player. I would rather have a mediocre backup forward on my team rather than Josh Smith even if the salaries didn't count. Rondo isn't quite in Josh Smith territory (at least he knows he is a terrible shooter), but he is verging dangerously close.
 

"Pretty well" being...not well at all, but okay.

The deification of sub-average bench filler in NBA circles continually fascinates me.

 
It's hardly deification. It's simply the belief that roster spots 11-15 are also modestly useful. A guy who knows his job is to come in and be a limited player in certain matchups (IE a post defender to deal with guys like Demarcus Cousins or Zach Randolph in the occasional game) is a valuable player. Meanwhile a more talented player like Dion Waiters who sees himself as the next Kobe may end being more trouble than he is worth.

 

[Bleedred]

If you promised me that Crowder would stop taking ill-advised 3s, then I'd take Crowder (not really, Rondo's the more valuable player, but that we're even rationally discussing this is an indictment of how far Rondo has fallen)

 

[Eddie Jurak]

For this Celtic team, I'd take Crowder.  Rondo is a square peg in a round hole here.  Maybe he still has a bottle of that 2012 playoff magic, but I'd bet that he doesn't.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Emphatic no.  I think that in the right situation, Jae can be a legit NBA starter.  The right situation being a team like the Clippers that doesn't have a star at SF and doesn't need to rely on him for offense.  
 
Rondo has reached the point where he's only of interest to a bad team going nowhere.  If the Lakers turn him down, maybe he is starting in Philly next year.

 

[Granite Sox]

If Rondo were 22 I'd be persuaded by the argument that he has more upside.  But he's 29 and he's playing a lot worse than when he was 24 or 25.  He kills momentum with his ceaseless dribbling.  Johnny Most would have killed him for that, and for good reason.  No question he is more talented that Crowder. 

 
"Alllll right... Rondo with the ball... fiddles and diddles... doodles and daddles.... aaaaaaaaaand... EIGHT-SECOND CALL!!!  Jake O'Donnell says, 'I am Lord Mayor O'Donnell and you will bow down to my rules' and calls Rondo for a violation!!!  And Rondo looked like a deer in the headlights!!"
 
I can hear the call as plain as day right now.
 
I like Jae, and Rajon has certainly made a heel turn, but Rondo is still the more talented player.  Is he more useful?  No... Crowder has the more defined role.  So the answer to the question (in my mind) is whether you're trading to acquire talent, or looking for a specific piece to fit.

 

[MillarTime]

Emphatic no. 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

$uper lucky break for Jae!!


Jae Crowder has been diagnosed with a left ACL sprain after meeting with Celtics team physician Dr. Brian McKeon this morning.

Boston Celtics (@celtics) April 27, 2015

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/04/27/knee-sprain-will-sideline-celtics-jae-crowder-for-only-few-weeks/g8bfHYlymaL0SHGgCl8Q1N/story.html#

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

I'd make the deal (Rondo for Jae) even if his leg had been cut off by the Black Knight during yesterday's game