Would Ted be a DH in today's game

[PapaSox]

I thought this would be an interesting discussion for the Forum.

Over the last couple of years I've been arguing with my father-in-law about Ted's fielding. As he saw Ted play and I did not he has a bit of an advantage over me. He has made the comment that Manny had nothing to fear from Ted. He went a bit further and stated with Betts, Castillo & Bradley there would be nothing Ted could offer in the outfield.

However, recently he made the comment that Ted would be a DH in today's game. I'm not convinced. So I thought I'd offer it to the combined wisdom of the forum. Would Ted be a DH in today's game.

 

[Marbleheader]

My guess is that like Yaz, he'd eventually move to first then DH later in his career

 

[MrNewEngland]

I've always read that he only cared about hitting. In fact there's a story I remember (although I cannot recall where I read it) from when he was a manager: the team was doing fielding drills and when they got into a disagreement about something he didn't answer it and just went to batting practice.

I'm sure those stories are overblown but it's tough to find a guy like Ortiz that is content being a DH. If Ted was productive and happy as a DH he'd probably just get the position and take OF during inter league games.

 

[Reverend]

Given the natural degradation in hitting ability over time, I think today he'd at best be a pinch hitter off the bench.

 

[reggiecleveland]

There is a reasonable chance he would get angry at the whole dh rule and go fishing.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Hard to hit when you're just a head. And an old one at that. But if anyone could, it'd be Ted.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Hard to hit when you're just a head. And an old one at that. But if anyone could, it'd be Ted.

With his eye, he'd draw a ton of walks

 

[mauf]

Ted played as many as 140 games only twice in his last eleven seasons (excluding seasons shortened due to military service). I have to believe he would have tried DHing, at least on a part-time basis, in an effort to play more games.

 

[MakMan44]

Ted played as many as 140 games only twice in his last eleven seasons (excluding seasons shortened due to military service). I have to believe he would have tried DHing, at least on a part-time basis, in an effort to play more games.

I think this is right. I don't think he'd be a full time DH from the majority of his career but certainly he'd DH sometimes to stay on the field more.

 

[Byrdbrain]

I'm not voting because the answer isn't yes or no, as was stated I assume he would have ended up as a DH in his later years but likely would have started in LF.

 

[Kliq]

I voted no under the sense that he would come up as an OF and play a majority of his career in that position as opposed to being a career DH like Ortiz. I think he would undoubtedly end up spending time at DH, maybe even exclusively, by the end of his career since that is pretty much where all aging sluggers today end up.

 

[mauidano]

"The Greatest Hitter That Ever Lived", yeah, I think he'd be up to the challenge.

 

[snowmanny]

With a DH he would have played a lot more games towards the end of his career and would have played a few more years. He had an OPS+ of 190 in 133 games his last year. It would have been interesting to see what sort of numbers he would have put up in 1961 at age 42 when all those AL sluggers were putting up those crazy inflated by expansion numbers.

 

[mauf]

With a DH he would have played a lot more games towards the end of his career and would have played a few more years. He had an OPS+ of 190 in 133 games his last year. It would have been interesting to see what sort of numbers he would have put up in 1961 at age 42 when all those AL sluggers were putting up those crazy inflated by expansion numbers.

1962 was the first expansion year.

If memory serves, 1961 was the first year of the 162-game schedule.

 

[MakMan44]

I voted no under the sense that he would come up as an OF and play a majority of his career in that position as opposed to being a career DH like Ortiz. I think he would undoubtedly end up spending time at DH, maybe even exclusively, by the end of his career since that is pretty much where all aging sluggers today end up.

Exactly. I have a hard time seeing Ted as a full time DH from the start of his career and I'm surprised by the gap in votes right now.

 

[snowmanny]

1962 was the first expansion year.

If memory serves, 1961 was the first year of the 162-game schedule.

The Angels and Twins/Senators were new teams in 1961. Cash, Mantle, Gentile, Killebrew, Maris and Colavito all had great hitting years.

 

[derekson]

Exactly. I have a hard time seeing Ted as a full time DH from the start of his career and I'm surprised by the gap in votes right now.

I don't think he would've been a DH from the time he was a rookie, but after 4-6 years he probably would've been making 60%+ of his starts at DH depending on other team personnel (presumably they'd have gone after at least one more decent OFer if the DH rule had been in place). Thus I voted yes.

 

[reggiecleveland]

If there was dh in 61 he probably hits 40 homers if he stays to play one more year. There are stories of his being able to hit BIg League guys in simulated game situations at age 50. It is intriguing to see what would have happened.

 

[shaggydog2000]

According to fangraphs his last three years were -22, -14, and -20 in defensive war, and the last two were in less than 400 AB. I don't think you can argue that if a DH spot was in existence, he would have been in it. He was easily the worst defensive player on the team in those years, and still a great hitter (well 1959 was just above average, but I assume that was injury related). He was the type of player the rule was invented for. Now if the rule had only been around a few years, he was a pretty proud guy and may not have wanted to do that. But if it was around for a while, normalized, and pitched as a way to get more at-bats in, I think he would have been down for it from what I've read of his personality.

Also, this is a pretty speculative thread. I'd also like to state that I think if Mars invaded Earth in the 50's, and Ted was called out of the reserves to fight Martian flying saucers, he probably would have set the all time record for saucer kills. The guy seemed to be pretty amazing at anything he really wanted to do.

 

[MakMan44]

I don't think he would've been a DH from the time he was a rookie, but after 4-6 years he probably would've been making 60%+ of his starts at DH depending on other team personnel (presumably they'd have gone after at least one more decent OFer if the DH rule had been in place). Thus I voted yes.

Question is a bit unclear then, because I agree with you but I think ,as you mentioned, it would be further in his career, thus I voted no.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Williams eventually would have been a full time DH.

 

[derekson]

Question is a bit unclear then, because I agree with you but I think ,as you mentioned, it would be further in his career, thus I voted no.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Williams eventually would have been a full time DH.

Well pretty much no one enters the sport as a DH. Billy Butler is really the only guy that comes to mind. Even Ortiz was mostly playing first base until Mientkiewicz took over the position.

A guy like Edgar Martinez is clearly a DH. And he started almost 600 games at 3B before moving to a nearly full-time DH.

 

[timlinin8th]

With his eye, he'd draw a ton of walks

Since the strike zone is defined as being between the knees and midpoint of the torso, and Ted has neither, he'd draw a LOT of walks... With the obvious problem being that Ted can't walk.

 

[wiffleballhero]

My father never tired of the less morbid version of this joke:

"If Ted Williams was hitting against today's pitchers [imagine 1984 or whatever], how would he do?"
"I suppose he'd probably hit about 260."
"Only 260!?"
"Well, he is 65 years old."
Ha Ha.

 

[Moviegoer]

Isn't that a Ty Cobb anecdote?

 

[Average Reds]

Isn't that a Ty Cobb anecdote?

Yes.

 

[joe dokes]

My father never tired of the less morbid version of this joke:

"If Ted Williams was hitting against today's pitchers [imagine 1984 or whatever], how would he do?"
"I suppose he'd probably hit about 260."
"Only 260!?"
"Well, he is 65 years old."
Ha Ha.

I saw Ted play in an old-timers game at Fenway in '82(?), when he was 64. He went 0-2, but made a nice running catch in left. (Bobby Doerr, same age, got a big hit. Bob Monty hit a HR.)

 

[santadevil]

After reading this monster a couple years back, I would think he would love to be a DH only.

Work on hitting all of the time, not fielding at all, which he pretty much hated.
I think the choice would be easy.

 

[Moviegoer]

I think the real question isn't whether he would have at some point in his career, but how many seasons could it have extended his career, and how much doing it since, say, shortly after getting back from Korea would have possibly increased his career numbers.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Well pretty much no one enters the sport as a DH. Billy Butler is really the only guy that comes to mind. Even Ortiz was mostly playing first base until Mientkiewicz took over the position.

A guy like Edgar Martinez is clearly a DH. And he started almost 600 games at 3B before moving to a nearly full-time DH.

Injury is what dictated that course for Edgar. To add insult to the injury, it came in a preseason exhibition game on carpet in Vancouver, BC.

 

[lexrageorge]

I'm certain that Williams would have been a DH for the 2nd half of his career at the least. I'm even more certain that if Ted Williams was a DH, the artificial taboo of "no DH's in the HoF" would have been broken long ago.

 

[Moviegoer]

Found this LA Times article from 1991 (well, AP article from the LA Times website), about the 50th anniversary of Ted Williams .406 season.
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-03/sports/sp-1481_1_ted-williams
The pertinent quote for this thread is near the bottom:

-- On the AL designated hitter rule: "It came in after I was through playing, and I thought it was a pretty good idea. But it changes the strategy of the game ... I think it's usefulness has worn out, and if I had a choice I would go back to having pitchers hit or take them out."

 

[threecy]

You gotta wonder if Ted would have stuck around for a few more years as DH, which could have meant a line up with both Yaz and Ted...

 

[Al Zarilla]

After reading this monster a couple years back, I would think he would love to be a DH only.

Work on hitting all of the time, not fielding at all, which he pretty much hated.
I think the choice would be easy.

I read that book too. Some germane parts:

"You get it Dommy" to Dom D. telling the center fielder to get fly balls between them that Ted wasn't interested in hustling for.

Ted practicing his swing in the outfield when the other team was hitting.

Jimmy Piersall grousing at Ted to wake up out there, or something like that.

Still, I think Ted was too proud of a baseball player to "just be" DH. I think Manny was the same way, although there was room for only one DH, and David Ortiz. I agree that Ted could have played after 1960 as a DH if it existed back then. OTOH, he may have feared another 254/.372/.419 season like he had in 1959. And, maybe the old warhorse had had it anyway.

 

[RingoOSU]

I see Ted's DH career being more like Jim Rice's than David Oritz's or Edgar Martinez's. That's why I voted no, I think he'd be remembered mostly as a LF.

 

[reggiecleveland]

There were a lot of coaches, basketball purists against the 3 point shot. In fact perhaps the greatest coach of this era, hates the 3. But, he uses it and the guys that grew up with it don't give it a second thought. So, since his is fantastical historical question, it all depends on context. If a young Ted Williams was playing today, without a doubt he would accept DH. If the rule came in 1961, along with expansion it may have been seen as a gimmick and he would of bristled at it. I can't imagine the negative press as he passed Foxx for #2 on the HR list without taking the field.



http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/10/spurs-gregg-popovich-on-three-pointers-i-dont-think-its-basketball

 

[Larry Gardner]

Even Ortiz was mostly playing first base until Mientkiewicz took over the position.

Took a look at that, cause I didn't think he played much 1B in '04. He did play 34 games with 31 starts and 14 complete games in '04 (261 innings) but DH'd in 115 games. Millar played 69-66-27-512 innings, and Minky played 47-26-23 with 272 innings.

Used http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Took a look at that, cause I didn't think he played much 1B in '04. He did play 34 games with 31 starts and 14 complete games in '04 (261 innings) but DH'd in 115 games. Millar played 69-66-27-512 innings, and Minky played 47-26-23 with 272 innings.

Used http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml

Pretty sure derekson was referring to Ortiz's (and Mientkiewicz's) time in Minnesota, not in Boston. Ortiz started at 1b in 78 of 89 MLB games (played there 81 of 92 games overall) over his first two seasons. In 1999, Mienkiewicz became the Twins primary 1B, and Ortiz never again played more games at first than DH.

 

[SydneySox]

Me too, ditto post, but this is a great discussion.

It's not something I'd have considered at all.

 

[Didot Fromager]

Me too, ditto post, but this is a great discussion.

It's not something I'd have considered at all.

And what if Babe Ruth started DHing around 1929-30?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

And what if Babe Ruth started DHing around 1929-30?

What if he'd been able to DH in 1919? Would he have ever moved to the outfield from the mound? Or would he have pitched every fourth day and DHed the rest?

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

What if he'd been able to DH in 1919? Would he have ever moved to the outfield from the mound? Or would he have pitched every fourth day and DHed the rest?

It's crazy that he played left field on the days he didn't pitch.

 

[threecy]

OTOH, he may have feared another 254/.372/.419 season like he had in 1959. And, maybe the old warhorse had had it anyway.

Maybe, but perhaps DHing would have taken some strain off his body. His poor 1959 season was due to a serious neck injury that required traction and a cervical collar. The pain was apparently agonizing when he'd swing. Articles from the time suggest it was still a problem for him heading into 1960 and that he almost retired during spring training.

 

[Comebacker to Foulke]

Or would he (Ruth) have pitched every fourth day and DHed the rest?

He could have, conceivably anyway, approached 20 bWAR in a season in the Old Old Toilet, with as many as 12 O WAR and perhaps 7 or 8 from pitching.