World Baseball Classic 2017

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,128
Pittsburgh, PA
I don't know what the hell "45" is, other than Pedro. But this is ludicrous. The best response to ignorance is getting it aired, disabused and guided towards better understanding - not to silence it and tell people they "have no right to speak" about such things. See this for a good comparative tale.

Individuals can lose their rights to be heard on some stuff. Painting entire demographic groups with the same brush, however, in saying they "have no right to speak" and "should just sit there and enjoy", is as counterproductive as it is ironic and hypocritical. People deserve to be judged individually on their words and actions, be they white, black, brown, green or blue. I know plenty of straight white american males who have plenty of informative, well-considered things to say about other cultures.
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
I don't know what the hell "45" is, other than Pedro. But this is ludicrous. The best response to ignorance is getting it aired, disabused and guided towards better understanding - not to silence it and tell people they "have no right to speak" about such things. See this for a good comparative tale.

Individuals can lose their rights to be heard on some stuff. Painting entire demographic groups with the same brush, however, in saying they "have no right to speak" and "should just sit there and enjoy", is as counterproductive as it is ironic and hypocritical. People deserve to be judged individually on their words and actions, be they white, black, brown, green or blue. I know plenty of straight white american males who have plenty of informative, well-considered things to say about other cultures.
45 is the orange con man in Washington. People like Kinsler made that possible.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,797
If you do any research on Kinsler you'll notice that he is definitely one of the more community-oriented players in MLB, has won and been nominated for different awards and has done a ton of charity. Maybe he put his foot in his mouth with those comments but it is unfair to characterize him as some scumbag.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
8,084
S.E. Pennsylvania
I'm not willing to buy that his words were just "nationalism." Nor do I know if the guy is racist. But his words certainly seemed tainted with bias and can be construed as having racist undertones, and in this country, right now, it was a shitty thing to say.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2013
1,081
.

Gratuitous...we'll done.

Edit: I mean, seriously. Your sole contribution to this thread is a drive-by post in response to something I posted during a game over 36 hours ago. You tell me I suck for taking shots at other posters and quote a post of mine which wasn't even directed at any other posters. Gratuitous?? Pot, meet your identical fucking twin.
I agree with him. Every 4 years you turn into the WBC Nazi.

Let's be real: this tournament is a joke. It's a cash-grab that occurs during the most inopportune time during the year and puts MLB assets at risk. I don't want to see Bogaerts playing third for the fucking Netherlands. I don't want to see Eduardo Rodriguez pitching mop-up duty for Venezuela. I don't want to see anyone on my favorite team playing baseball for anyone else when injury or over-use could be a factor.

The WBC sucks. It sucks and it's stupid and it's awful and quite frankly, if you think it's awesome, you suck, too. I care more about NFL preseason football. I care more about the NBA dunk contest. I care more about who gets the hardest slap shot at the NHL Skills Competition. So please spare us the quadrennial diatribe about what awful baseball fans we are for not caring.

Thank god it's over. Someone please close the thread.
 

SumnerH

Malt Liquor Picker
Dope
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Jul 18, 2005
31,999
Alexandria, VA
I'm not willing to buy that his words were just "nationalism." Nor do I know if the guy is racist. But his words certainly seemed tainted with bias and can be construed as having racist undertones, and in this country, right now, it was a shitty thing to say.
It was either inelegantly worded (I think there's a good chance his "as opposed to" was meant to mean "in contrast to" or basically "as well as", and he stuck his foot in his mouth) or tainted with bias (which is certainly possible).

But I think his apology/walkback turns it into a non-story (barring other facts coming out). Even the apology starts off tone-deaf, but taken as a whole it seems pretty clear that he's not intending malice:

"What I said was that American kids can watch American players play, Puerto Rican kids can watch Puerto Rican players play, Venezuelan kids can watch Venezuelan guys play, and that's who they emulate," Kinsler said. "That's who they watch. That's who they want to be like. There's nothing wrong with an American kid watching a Puerto Rican player and wanting to be like them, or a Puerto Rican kid watching an American player and wanting to play that way.

"You should play the way you want, and the way you feel will put you in the best position to win -- the way you feel the best and perform the best," Kinsler continued.

"Everybody is different. I play differently than a lot of my teammates on this team; I play with a little more emotion than most players during the season. Everybody has their own style! That's all I was saying."

Asked if he believed Latino players play the game "the wrong way" because they can be much more demonstrative of their passion, Kinsler said "absolutely not."

This is what this tournament is for, to demonstrate the game in all walks of life, all over the globe. You saw the way Japanese players play; they play different than us. The Latin teams play different than us. Everyone should be celebrated. That is what this tournament is about, and that's why everyone loves it, 'cause you get to see people play [in front of] people from their own country and the different styles of baseball. One is not better than the other; they are just different.
 

uk_sox_fan

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 11, 2006
1,273
London, England
Ehh after what happened with 45, straight white males have no right to do so. Sorry but that's just how it is in my opinion. It's an opinion shared by most. Just the way it is. SWM's need to stand up for people that Kinsler offended. His comments at first I didn't see as racist but then I read he supported 45 so I think it's obvious that it came from a xenophobic/racist point of view.

Just a shame this has to overshadow a wonderful tournament.
So SWM have no right to express an opinion? But SWM need to stand up for people that Kinsler offended. Wouldn't that be having an opinion? Is it that you just want people that don't look like you to behave exactly the way you want them to or disappear/shut up?

What would be a good word for people that think like you? Racist?

Oh but enough idiots in the country elected the worst president we've ever seen you no matter what you say you have the moral high ground as long as you're against Trump. Got news for you, lots of us SWM's hate Trump and yet we can have opinions that don't agree with you. Even people who in my opinion misguidedly support him can. Deal with it.

Apologies for perpetuating the politics in the thread but the WBC is over so I imagine the purists are done reading here anyways.
 

Chris12345

New Member
Aug 5, 2012
39
So SWM have no right to express an opinion? But SWM need to stand up for people that Kinsler offended. Wouldn't that be having an opinion? Is it that you just want people that don't look like you to behave exactly the way you want them to or disappear/shut up?

What would be a good word for people that think like you? Racist?

Oh but enough idiots in the country elected the worst president we've ever seen you no matter what you say you have the moral high ground as long as you're against Trump. Got news for you, lots of us SWM's hate Trump and yet we can have opinions that don't agree with you. Even people who in my opinion misguidedly support him can. Deal with it.

Apologies for perpetuating the politics in the thread but the WBC is over so I imagine the purists are done reading here anyways.
But how is it racist? In no way can this view be considered racist in any way because you cannot have a racist view since racism deals with oppression and that group is in the majority. How can you speak about other cultures when you've never faced discrimination in your life? That's why Kinsler is being called a racist.

But yes everyone needs to stand up for people who were offended it's our moral obligation. Kinsler was wrong here. He has no right to speak about how other cultures are raised. This isn't all about bat flips and celebrations either.
 
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uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,097
Maybe this new speech rights law could be posted. Maybe a table that says what each type of person has the right to talk about. It's a hard law to follow so I'd love the text.
 
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InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,128
Pittsburgh, PA
How can you speak about other cultures when you've never faced discrimination in your life?
For those who are interested in seeing this kind of facepalm-inducing departure from logic roundly mocked, head over to our Views & News subforum for an all-you-can-eat buffet.

How can you speak about Egyptian hieroglyphics when you've never gone hang-gliding in your life?
How can you speak about water bottles when you've never flown to the moon in your life?
How can you speak about financial markets when you've never been a pig farmer in your life?
How can you speak about Mozart when you've never felled a tree in your life?
How can you speak about Persian rugs when you've never been soundly curb-stomped in your life?
How can you speak about The Itchy and Scratchy Show when you've never gotten a PhD in your life?
 

Doug Beerabelli

Killer Threads
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
This might go better if the word "right" was treated more like it's legal definition, and some other word or phrase was used when that definition was not intended.

Like: "Kisnler as a white male has no moral authority to speak or opine about other cultures."

It's still an ironically descriminatory view of things (the color of your skin precludes you from expressing yourself), but I think it better displays the sentiment/intent of the opinion conveyed.

Not that I should be telling other people what they can or cannot say - it's just my opinion!
 

Gubanich Plague

New Member
Jul 14, 2005
63
But how is it racist? In no way can this view be considered racist in any way because you cannot have a racist view since racism deals with oppression and that group is in the majority. How can you speak about other cultures when you've never faced discrimination in your life?
I've been lurking since before the Schilling Thanksgiving and don't post often, but this struck a nerve. This thread is already off track, so I don't mind putting in my 2 cents.

Your view on SWMs is pretty presumptuous; some of us get out in the world and find ourselves in the minority fairly often. In my work I'm often been the only male in a large group, or the only straight male, or the only white, or all of the above. Being in the majority in the nation as a whole does not mean one spends all of one's time being in the majority, and discrimination can happen to anyone, although it often takes different forms.

I spent years living overseas, where I went long periods of time without seeing any other whites. My wife is from another race and ethnic group, and we've never thought of each other as anything other than wife and husband (she never refers to me as her "white husband"). We laugh how the school system classifies some of our kids as white and others as my wife's race; we've always thought of them as our kids and don't care at all about what box they check under race.

When I lived overseas, at first I took every instance of unfavorable treatment as racism, but in time I realized that some of them were by pure chance, sometimes I got the dirty end of the stick because I didn't have close connections to the other parties involved, and some instances were not necessarily because people hated me for being white but because they felt they could get away with treating me bad because I'm white. That made all the difference to me; I can deal with opportunists better than I can deal with haters, so from then on I always assumed that hate wasn't involved.

In the end I realized that I have no direct control over what anyone thinks, and it doesn't matter why things happen; they happen and I have to deal with them. Of course, I didn't grow up being told that I would be discriminated against constantly, so it was relatively easy to make that shift in thinking as an adult.

I think part of the problem with race is that people on all sides are ready to see discrimination everywhere. I think some of the outrage in this thread is spring-loaded, just waiting to jump at the first instance of inelegant words and cry "racist."

In face to face situations I find it better to not even acknowledge the possibility of discrimination, and eventually most people will see me as an individual, and not simply as white, or as straight, or as simply a male; my words and actions are all they need to judge me.

Yes, I have general opinions about other ethnic groups, based on behavior; for each group there are things I personally like, and things I personally dislike, but most of these things are unimportant in the big scheme and I don't worry about them a whole lot. I do my best to not automatically associate every individual with the behavior of the group, and treat everyone as an individual. Every group has good people, not so good people, and everything in between, and I'd bet the proportions are pretty consistent across groups.

I can't pretend to know what it's like to be a black in America, or a lesbian, or a woman in an all-male group, but then again, I can't fully imagine what it's like to be any of my brothers, who are all straight white males I grew up with but live in very different places from me and run in different circles.

It's arrogant to assume you know all about what anybody else's situation is like; we are all different, even among the same race/ethnic group/sexual orientation/gender, and we should all stop attributing every word and action to race and racism.
/rant
 

InsideTheParker

persists in error
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
40,466
Pioneer Valley
I do my best to not automatically associate every individual with the behavior of the group, and treat everyone as an individual. Every group has good people, not so good people, and everything in between, and I'd bet the proportions are pretty consistent across groups.
This is it. Racism is the opposite of this.

As for Kinsler, I am not sure what he was getting at, but I guess it might have been defensive, just saying that the "U.S." way of enjoying baseball was every bit as valid as the more expressive ways of other groups. Maybe more valid for him, because it's traditional for U.S. players to celebrate only after the game has been won.
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
I've been lurking since before the Schilling Thanksgiving and don't post often, but this struck a nerve. This thread is already off track, so I don't mind putting in my 2 cents.

Your view on SWMs is pretty presumptuous; some of us get out in the world and find ourselves in the minority fairly often. In my work I'm often been the only male in a large group, or the only straight male, or the only white, or all of the above. Being in the majority in the nation as a whole does not mean one spends all of one's time being in the majority, and discrimination can happen to anyone, although it often takes different forms.

I spent years living overseas, where I went long periods of time without seeing any other whites. My wife is from another race and ethnic group, and we've never thought of each other as anything other than wife and husband (she never refers to me as her "white husband"). We laugh how the school system classifies some of our kids as white and others as my wife's race; we've always thought of them as our kids and don't care at all about what box they check under race.

When I lived overseas, at first I took every instance of unfavorable treatment as racism, but in time I realized that some of them were by pure chance, sometimes I got the dirty end of the stick because I didn't have close connections to the other parties involved, and some instances were not necessarily because people hated me for being white but because they felt they could get away with treating me bad because I'm white. That made all the difference to me; I can deal with opportunists better than I can deal with haters, so from then on I always assumed that hate wasn't involved.

In the end I realized that I have no direct control over what anyone thinks, and it doesn't matter why things happen; they happen and I have to deal with them. Of course, I didn't grow up being told that I would be discriminated against constantly, so it was relatively easy to make that shift in thinking as an adult.

I think part of the problem with race is that people on all sides are ready to see discrimination everywhere. I think some of the outrage in this thread is spring-loaded, just waiting to jump at the first instance of inelegant words and cry "racist."

In face to face situations I find it better to not even acknowledge the possibility of discrimination, and eventually most people will see me as an individual, and not simply as white, or as straight, or as simply a male; my words and actions are all they need to judge me.

Yes, I have general opinions about other ethnic groups, based on behavior; for each group there are things I personally like, and things I personally dislike, but most of these things are unimportant in the big scheme and I don't worry about them a whole lot. I do my best to not automatically associate every individual with the behavior of the group, and treat everyone as an individual. Every group has good people, not so good people, and everything in between, and I'd bet the proportions are pretty consistent across groups.

I can't pretend to know what it's like to be a black in America, or a lesbian, or a woman in an all-male group, but then again, I can't fully imagine what it's like to be any of my brothers, who are all straight white males I grew up with but live in very different places from me and run in different circles.

It's arrogant to assume you know all about what anybody else's situation is like; we are all different, even among the same race/ethnic group/sexual orientation/gender, and we should all stop attributing every word and action to race and racism.
/rant
I can respect your opinion. I think we agree on a lot of things. Maybe I was a little harsh. The way the country has been going I think it's normal to feel like you need to make a preemptive strike against any scent of racism or fascism or xenophobia. So while I'll admit I was a tad bit obtuse and harsh I think comments like Kinslers is disheartening when you have millions watching the WBC.
 

Awesome Fossum

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,910
Austin, TX
The worst thing about WBC 2017 is this thread. The second worst is Matt Vasgersian. The best is probably Javier Baez, followed closely by some combination of Wladimir Balentien, the Jew Crew t-shirt, and Japan's new uniforms.

Can't wait for 2021. Hopefully Mexico qualifies.
 

Gubanich Plague

New Member
Jul 14, 2005
63
I can respect your opinion. I think we agree on a lot of things. Maybe I was a little harsh. The way the country has been going I think it's normal to feel like you need to make a preemptive strike against any scent of racism or fascism or xenophobia. So while I'll admit I was a tad bit obtuse and harsh I think comments like Kinslers is disheartening when you have millions watching the WBC.
I can see that we agree on a lot of things. I said you comment hit a nerve, but I didn't take it as you personally attacking me (how could you; I post so seldom that you I'd be surprised if you were aware of my existence).

I agree that comments like Kinsler's can be disheartening, but when the automatic response is to attribute them to racism, people tend to get defensive, and the conversation generally goes nowhere good.
 

uk_sox_fan

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 11, 2006
1,273
London, England
I can respect your opinion. I think we agree on a lot of things. Maybe I was a little harsh. The way the country has been going I think it's normal to feel like you need to make a preemptive strike against any scent of racism or fascism or xenophobia. So while I'll admit I was a tad bit obtuse and harsh I think comments like Kinslers is disheartening when you have millions watching the WBC.
Thank you for coming back with this. I think we can all understand that what's happening in the US is very upsetting to a great many people. I do believe that the politics of populism that Trump and Farage and LePen and Wilders et al use has encouraged closet racists to come out and be more vocal (I don't necessarily think Kinsler is one of them but I have no way of knowing one way or another) but I think responding to that nonsense in a similar way is the exact wrong way to go about things.

We have still developed societies in the West (and Far East) that are way more tolerant than any the world has seen before. Interracial marriage, same sex marriage, atheism, equal rights for women, etc. were all things that were banned or vilified by the vast majority of society not too long ago and are supported by even greater numbers today. That's not going away because a few populists took advantage of people who felt like government was working or that terrorism was so big a problem that we need to suspend our civil liberties.

In the big picture social progress will continue to spread. Time is against the bigots so let's not drop to their level.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
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Dec 8, 2005
59,268
San Andreas Fault
Jonah Keri sums up nicely what was wrong with Kinsler's pregame comments yesterday:

Go to a game in Japan or Korea or Puerto Rico, and the common theme will be fun. Not merely the kind of fun you get watching great athletes at the top of their game. But also players being allowed -- even encouraged -- to play with flair. Blast a home run in many other baseball-mad nations, and flipping your bat to the sky and skipping around the bases is embraced by similarly giddy fans. Watch a ball even a half-second too long off the bat in a major league game, and you might end up with a 97-mph fastball in your ear the next time up.
And one of the pitchers very likely to do this was a Dominican, you know, that guy Pedro?

I think Kinsler was just saying you don't have to jump up and down to show you enjoy the game. Unfortunately, almost everything gets "racist" these days.
 

InsideTheParker

persists in error
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Jul 15, 2005
40,466
Pioneer Valley
Remy, who admits to not having watched even an inning of the WBC, expresses his pleasure at the US winning. On the other hand, prompted by Caron, he says that he is reconciled to the celebrations of other cultures, and says it's the future of the game.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
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Jul 15, 2005
71,128
Seth Lugo onto the DL with 'general arm fatigue' from his spring workload.