Workman suspended for 6 games for throwing behind Longoria

[garlan5]

 
To be clear, I still think it's absurd to suggest that Workman's pitch was the result of the rain or anything other than intent.  But I overreacted and should not have made it personal. 
 
That's my fault and I apologize.

 
not to rehash this (we all seem to be more pissed about price not getting suspended) but perhaps he was throwing at his backside, the same way price hit ortiz, and it just got away from him. it's all possible.  i am in the same boat as you. okay with workman getting the suspension but price needs it too.   after all he buzzed X too or am i misremembering?

 

[StuckOnYouk]

So is it Joe Torre who decides suspensions?

 

[Laser Show]

 
That's not trolling. He's answering the question. What would you want your manager to say?

I mean maybe trolling is a strong word. You're right, I wouldn't want my manager to say anything else. But I read the "he wasn't even thrown out of the game" part as "na na na we got out away with it" even if that's not how it was meant.

 

[cherno]

Workman will appeal, it'll be reduced to 4 games, and hopefully he won't miss a start.

However, the Rays still have not been penalized for any of the actions from that game. Thanks MLB!

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Workman will appeal, it'll be reduced to 4 games, and hopefully he won't miss a start.

However, the Rays still have not been penalized for any of the actions from that game. Thanks MLB!

 
They can announce the result of the appeal any day they choose. If they want him to miss a start, they can give him a 1 game suspension and announce it the morning of his start.
 
It seems more likely to me that he drops the appeal right after an upcoming start when it will be most convenient to the Red Sox.

 

[garlan5]

Espn bottom line mentions Workmans suspension and also notes price hit Ortiz in same game and not suspended. Not mentioning hitting Carp and buzzing Xander. Typical. I should post this in the espn sucks thread.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

This all comes back to the umps. The rules are there to avoid serious injury to players...or bench clearing brawls.
 
They knew that that there was a history, both with Ortiz/Price and with the Sox/Rays - going into the game.
 
They should have ejected Price without warning because of the clear intent of that pitch. They didn't.
 
As said above, once a warning is issued, while any pitch deemed intentional is grounds for ejection - simply high and tight pitches are often grounds for ejection on the repeat offender. Price should have been ejected after the non-intentional hit of Carp.
 
Workman threw at or behind Longoria's head/shoulders, that's not even debatable. He should have been ejected/fined whether the pitch slipped or not. 
 
Price's/Maddon's  post-game interviews were a travesty to the game. I'm not talking about the words they said...but any nimrod could see they were playing the game of "I'm going to take credit from my peers for hitting the guy by giving a smarmy no-comment-type answer" versus coming out and saying "No way I was throwing at him, I love that guy...it was just a mistake pitch. I feel terrible..."
 
MLB needs to fine or suspend both Price and Maddon to maintain their standard of avoiding retaliation and brawls - and protecting players against serious injury.
 
They all suck, but it was the umps that let it get to the point of incredible stupidity. They should be suspended.

 

[ALiveH]

why is it worse to buzz someone behind their head rather than in front of their head?  it's not any more dangerous?
 
if MLB is saying workman had pinpoint control and only intended to buzz him, not sure why that warrants a suspension when people buzz people in front of the head all the time and no one's ever gotten suspended for it.
 
on the other hand, if mlb is saying workman intended to hit longoria, then clearly workman was wild and missed too far to the right.  but how can MLB determine workman was intending to hit him in the head if he has such poor control then he could have easily also thrown it a foot higher than he intended (rainy night and all).
 
I don't know how anyone can conclusively determine where workman intended that pitch and therefore whether he did something that warrants a suspension.  My opinion is workman intended to hit him in the ribs but the ball slipped and he missed badly up and to the right but without getting in workman's head it's all just pure speculation.  I just know that farrel, the sox & workman have no history of being headhunters AFAIK.
 
Not punishing Price on top of it just adds to the confusion.  Because clearly he did intend to hit someone at least once and probably buzz a couple guys too (carp and bogaerts).
 
So punishing one guy and not punishing another guy who the umpires at the game believed had the same intention just seems totally inconsistent.  And, then on top of it, Torre is the guy making the decision on this, who has a history of unfairly favoring his guys (all star game selections) and probably no love for the sox - just all the facts together here make it seem like he wasn't totally impartial.
 
And, I'm trying to be as polite & logical as I can.

 

[teddywingman]

Can't read this whole thread right now--but just so you all know how skewed this all is:

The Sportscenter intro to tonight's Sox game at Cleveland goes like this:
Clip 1.Workman throws behind Longoria.
2. Price Drills Papi.
3. Papi running out of the dugout in a rage with the rest of the Sox, with no showing of the previous 2 seconds where Carp got drilled.
4. Papi talking to the press about where he stands with David Price.

Not once do they show Price and his sanctimonious routine with the press; or the real sequence of events. It's all a farce and it makes it seem like there's something to resent about the Red Sox.

 

[teddywingman]

I mean, why would you show it out of sequence so that anyone who didn't see the game thinks that Workman threw behind Longoria first?

I suppose this belongs in the espn sucks thread. But holy shit espn sucks.

 

[NWsoxophile]

This all comes back to the umps. The rules are there to avoid serious injury to players...or bench clearing brawls.
 

The first level of blame is on the umps, yes. But the mindbogglingly unbalanced meting out of suspensions seems even worse to me. The league had several days to review what happened on the field and consider it carefully. What they came back with is essentially full support for the decisions made by the umpires on the field- further penalties for the Sox and not the slightest censuring of the Rays, or the umpiring crew for that matter. It doesn't make sense on any level. As some posters have noted, this completely partial reading of the Price/Workman HBPs by the league probably ensures the continuation of all this bullshit the next time the teams meet, and so it doesn't even serve MLB's interests in resolving this feud or whatever it is between the teams and getting back to baseball. 

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

I think MLB will err on the side of upholding the umps' authority to avoid the "Have another donut you fat pig" fiasco that the NHL went through 25 years ago. Unfair or not, they want to put a lot of weight behind the umps on the field. They do not care if it screws our favorite team.

And my "they," of course I mean Joe Torre.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

why is it worse to buzz someone behind their head rather than in front of their head?  it's not any more dangerous?

Yes, it is more dangerous behind the head, because your natural reaction is to get away from the plate as quickly as possible (jerk your  head back, at least), and if the ball is behind you, you'll jump right into it.

 

[ALiveH]

usually batters drop straight down to the ground if a ball is up near their eyes.
 
so if you're saying workman had pinpoint control on that pitch, then is it worse to intentionally hit someone or intentionally miss them?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

usually batters drop straight down to the ground if a ball is up near their eyes.
 
so if you're saying workman had pinpoint control on that pitch, then is it worse to intentionally hit someone or intentionally miss them?

 
I think MLB has been relatively clear and consistent that throwing near the head is always worse than throwing lower, whether you hit or miss the batter.  And I think they are right to do so.
 
What they are not right about, obviously, is that Friday's fiasco is appropriately dealt with by only punishing the guy who threw near a head, not the guy who started it and gave unhelpful quotes defending starting it or the manager who initiated and bragged about it.   MLB would look more balanced, and do more to accomplish their goal of reducing dust-ups like Friday, if they punished those actors as well.   While the above approach to 'throwing high' seems quite reasonable to me, there's also a general principle about punishing the person who initiated a fracas, which was oddly not applied here.
 
I continue to have trouble finding equality in the rulings out of Torre's office, unfortunately.  One can say that is just my Sox bias; I guess I'd challenge someone to show with data that is not factually true.   It is interesting to note that one umpire moved off of the crew Saturday; I know the explanation given was that this was previously scheduled, and I haven't seen clear reporting to support a previous announcement (there could be such reporting, though).  That, at least, might suggest that behind the scenes MLB dealt with one-third of the problem...though it's clear they did not deal with the Rays portion.

 

[joe dokes]

usually batters drop straight down to the ground if a ball is up near their eyes.
 
so if you're saying workman had pinpoint control on that pitch, then is it worse to intentionally hit someone or intentionally miss them?

 
*Every* ex-player I've ever heard doing color says the pitch behind the neck is the most dangerous, because in addition to dropping down, their head moves back away from the plate. So, conceivably, an intentional "miss" could carry much more malevolent intent then an intentional drilling in the ass, for example. I don't know what Workman's specific intent was, beyond "throwing at" Longoria. (Of course I dont "know" that either, but that's my take). Maybe he was aiming at ass and it slipped or he just missed (Ortiz has a bigger target!).  Maybe he was aiming head and it slipped (kinda doubt it).  Maybe he was going for a behind-the-neck killshot (kinda doubt that, too).  But I have little doubt that, generally speaking, Workman's actions qualified as throwing "at" him.

 

[joe dokes]

While the above approach to 'throwing high' seems quite reasonable to me, there's also a general principle about fining the person who initiated a fracas, which was oddly not applied here.
 

 
Intentionally initiated the fracas . . .

 

[Average Reds]

usually batters drop straight down to the ground if a ball is up near their eyes.
 
so if you're saying workman had pinpoint control on that pitch, then is it worse to intentionally hit someone or intentionally miss them?

 
You are either strawmanning or projecting your own opinions into the posts of others so you can reinforce your own opinions.  I'll hit on a lot of the points you and others have raised one last time:

• The idea that throwing behind someone's head is about the worst thing you can do as a pitcher is not new.  It's been around forever.  If you don't believe me, invest some time and read Ball Four, where Bouton talks about the art of hitting a batter and how beanballs are perceived in the game.  Here's a summary:
  You want to send a message, you hit a batter in the ass.  So long as the hitter knows what the message is about, there won't be much of a problem with this.  (One of the reason that Ortiz was so pissed was that he thought things were settled last fall.)
• You want to knock a batter out of the game, you aim for the knees. 
• You want to hurt a batter, you throw at his head.
• You want to explore the possibility of ending a career, you throw behind the head.

Bouton pointed out that you are less likely to actually hit a batter in his head when you throw behind him, but doing so brings serious, career-ending injury into play because of the possibility that the batter backs right into a hard pitch.  The fact that all batters do not do this is irrelevant.

• With all this as context, players believe that it is absolutely worse to throw behind a batter's head than to hit him in the ass.  It boggles the mind to think that anyone would believe otherwise.
• No one has said that they know why Workman threw the ball behind Longoria, or that he had pinpoint control.  Just that he threw it there on purpose. 
• It's entirely possible that he threw it well behind his head because he specifically wanted to limit the risk to Longoria, but this will not change how the action of throwing behind a batter is perceived.

It's fine to disagree, but you should really take the time to understand what it is that you are disagreeing with.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

And just in time:
 
http://deadspin.com/a-major-league-pitchers-guide-to-baseballs-bullshit-unw-1585433770
 
A Major League Pitcher's Guide To Baseball's Bullshit Unwritten Rules

 
This article is both timely and insightful, and reflects how I feel about this retaliatory BS.  I realize that following sports appeals to the tribal nature of humanity; there needs to be an enemy, there needs to be conquest, things are viewed in absolute, inflated terms, and there are lots of rituals and control of the junior people by the senior people.  That's fine for a certain while, but it can certainly be taken too far.  This bit from the article - about one of our favorite players - should probably sober us up from our bloodlust a little bit...
 
 

Jonny Gomes believes there are more bat flippers and showboaters and long-ball pimpers in the game today because the sport has become soft. And if he had his druthers, he'd toughen them up.

Gomes:
"So many rules and regulations have prevented the players from policing our game. Now, a young guy hits a home run, he cruises around the bases, and then you hit him with a pitch to teach him a lesson and you get suspended six games. Is it worth it to make a point? No. The rules have been altered. You have a better opportunity to go out in the parking lot and fight a guy after a game than throwing at him. If you fight in the parking lot, you might not get suspended. But if you hit a guy, you are going to get suspended."
 

 

Yes, if you go to the parking lot to fight a guy for pimping a homer, that's a sign of a man who respects the game. Whoops, no, sorry, that's the sign of an idiot and a criminal. Taking a player to the parking lot won't necessarily get you suspended from baseball, it'll just get you arrested—which, in this case, is apparently the lesser of two evils.
 
This kind of thinking illustrates a point you see again and again in the unwritten code—that baseball, and the way you behave while playing it, is more important than the laws we ask society to abide by. How else can you rationalize breaking someone's wrist, hand, or skull with a beanball as an acceptable form of punishment? How else can you justify committing assault and battery as a learning tool? By that logic, the next time someone cuts me off in traffic, I should send my car barreling into the offender's because that's the only way they're going to learn.


 
This same kind of thinking is what makes people uncomfortable with the fighting in hockey, but I would say that there, at least the rules are a lot clearer and at least physical contact is an innate part of the sport.  To see Jonny Gomes' attitude propagated further and acted upon more frequently would, I think, be greatly to the detriment of baseball and its positioning as a more refined and subtle pastime.  Not to mention, you know, (needless) injuries to star players doesn't exactly improve the product.

 

[Stitch01]

If MLB's goal is to end the nonsense they'll cut Workman's suspension to four games and let both teams know, in no uncertain terms, that anything else between the two teams the rest of 2014 will result in suspensions, extremely long ones if anyone gets hurt.
 
The way they've handled it so far has done a great job creating conditions for a dangerous situation later this season. 
 
Hopefully they do the former.  Would like to avoid seeing X get hit in the wrist or something later this year because of nonsense with a third-tier franchise.

 

[soxhop411]

Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo  8m
According to an industry source, David Price was fined by MLB for his role in last Friday's Red Sox-Tampa Bay dust-up.
 
What a joke

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo  8m
According to an industry source, David Price was fined by MLB for his role in last Friday's Red Sox-Tampa Bay dust-up.
 
What a joke
 

 
Actually, that makes me feel better about the whole thing.
 
Again, the umps chose one of two options with the Ortiz HBP -- to issue warnings. The Workman pitch happened under a different set of rules than the Price pitch; it happened post-warnings. Regardless of where the pitch to Longoria went, it was determined to be intentional while the pitchers were under the warning.
 
The only real argument in this remains whether the Carp HBP should have been an immediate ejection. I think the umps erred there, if for no reason other than to prevent escalation of hostilities. 
 
That Price was fined indicates that MLB realized his role in this. I suppose it's possible, but to suspend him for a pitch that didn't have him ejected would require a value judgment that puts the league in conflict with the umpires. If he had been ejected for the Carp HBP, I suspect he would have been suspended as well.

 

[Laser Show]

If MLB's goal is to end the nonsense they'll cut Workman's suspension to four games and let both teams know, in no uncertain terms, that anything else between the two teams the rest of 2014 will result in suspensions, extremely long ones if anyone gets hurt.
 
The way they've handled it so far has done a great job creating conditions for a dangerous situation later this season. 
 
Hopefully they do the former.  Would like to avoid seeing X get hit in the wrist or something later this year because of nonsense with a third-tier franchise.

 
oh god now I'm terrified. Rays games will be brutal the rest of this year.

 

[Curtis Pride]

 
Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo  8m
According to an industry source, David Price was fined by MLB for his role in last Friday's Red Sox-Tampa Bay dust-up.
 
What a joke
 

Actally it might be an appropriate discipline for Price. If they fined him the equivalent of 2 days' pay, it would at least mitigate some of the unfairness of the rulings meted out. At least Price is getting some punishment instead of none at all.

 

[soxhop411]

Anddddd Ortiz was also fined
 
 
Marc Topkin ‏@TBTimes_Rays  29s
Hearing both #Rays Price and #RedSox Ortiz may have been fined by MLB as fallout from Friday

 

[Corsi]

ridiculous

 

[glennhoffmania]

So one guy admits to intentionally hitting another guy, both mouth off to the media, and they're punished equally.  Yeah this is par for the course under Bud's watch.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

This is totally backwards. I get ejecting Workman, I even get suspending him. But the issue here is that if both guys "sent their message" safely why is the initiator not punished but the individual who responded penalized?
 
Assuming Price still has a bruised ego and felt justified in hitting Ortiz, he did it the right way. He didn't throw at his head but message sent. Neither Ortiz nor Price are ejected. The Red Sox get their chance to respond, they do so by throwing behidn Longoria. Message sent, Workman shouldn't have been tossed. That's when the warnings should have been issued. Clearly MLB can't handle policing the game, so why can't we revert back to letting the game police itself?

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Anddddd Ortiz was also fined
 
 
Marc Topkin ‏@TBTimes_Rays  29s
Hearing both #Rays Price and #RedSox Ortiz may have been fined by MLB as fallout from Friday

 
He got in the way of Price's pitch. What's unfair about that?!

 

[trekfan55]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 4m
David Ortiz as of a minute ago has not been informed of any fines from MLB. #redsox #rays
Collapse

•  

 

 
Tweeted at 1:11pm

 

[Fred in Lynn]

This is unfortunate. The problem is that those in charge of MLB's rule of law do not know how to effectively manage a system of rules, so complaining about the lack of logic, consistency, or fairness in their rulings is about as effective as screaming into the vacuum of space. Joe Torre was a baseball player and manager, so of course he's qualified to interpret a rulebook and serve as a judge. Thus ends the mystery. In other words, the explanation is simple: it's hard to that job correctly with one's head up one's ass, whether said head is in that position by choice.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Do you think Joe would do a better job if Don Zimmer came and sat beside him?

 

[Fred in Lynn]

The first level of blame is on the umps, yes. But the mindbogglingly unbalanced meting out of suspensions seems even worse to me. The league had several days to review what happened on the field and consider it carefully. What they came back with is essentially full support for the decisions made by the umpires on the field- further penalties for the Sox and not the slightest censuring of the Rays, or the umpiring crew for that matter. It doesn't make sense on any level. As some posters have noted, this completely partial reading of the Price/Workman HBPs by the league probably ensures the continuation of all this bullshit the next time the teams meet, and so it doesn't even serve MLB's interests in resolving this feud or whatever it is between the teams and getting back to baseball. 

 
I'm double-posting to pile on to the insanely accurate logic in this response.  To be fair, I could have selected numerous others.  Too easy.

 

[MoGator71]

Them fining Price almost makes it worse. If they don't punish him at all they can claim (laughably) that they don't believe he hit anyone intentionally. But now they've fined him, they're acknowledging that his actions (hitting Ortiz and Carp) were deliberate, but despite that they're still not going to suspend him. Joke.

 

[mabrowndog]

Do you think Joe would do a better job if Don Zimmer came and sat beside him?

 
 I love that this was posted more than an hour before word of Gerbil's expiration began making the rounds.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Them fining Price almost makes it worse. If they don't punish him at all they can claim (laughably) that they don't believe he hit anyone intentionally. But now they've fined him, they're acknowledging that his actions (hitting Ortiz and Carp) were deliberate, but despite that they're still not going to suspend him. Joke.

 
Umm, you haven't followed the story. They acknowledged after the game that they thought the Ortiz HBP was intentional, and they proceded with the warning. They determined the carp HBP was unintentional. The fine is for the Ortiz HBP.

 

[teddywingman]

Whatever the fine is, the whole thing is a joke.

What's it going to be? 2K?

 

[judyb]

I think of it more as the umpires chose to assume the Carp HBP was unintentional then MLB chose to pretend that assumption was worthy of being treated as if it was a determination.

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
Umm, you haven't followed the story. They acknowledged after the game that they thought the Ortiz HBP was intentional, and they proceded with the warning. They determined the carp HBP was unintentional. The fine is for the Ortiz HBP.

 
I'm trying to keep up here.  If they acknowledged that the Ortiz HBP was intentional then why wasn't Price suspended?  Since when is there zero suspension for intentionally throwing at a batter?

 

[Fred in Lynn]

I don't believe Torre is required to follow a "promulgated" standard when contemplating punishment, other than agreements that might exist between MLB and the Union. The umpires, on the other hand, had Moses come down from Sinai with their requirements etched in stone. I think recent comments are lumping the umpires' actions and MLB's disciplinary response together, and I'm not sure that's the best way to look at it.

By the book (Rule 8.02(d)), I believe they did not incorrectly handle the events of last Friday. They didn't have to eject Price for either HBP, didn't have to allow Workman to stay in the game, and did not have to give Farrell the time of day. However, with the concepts of fair competition and unbiased enforcement in mind, the umpires butchered it and Torre dogpiled on top of that rabbit with the Workman suspension/Price pat on the back. Toss in a snarky Maddon and it is a bitter pill to swallow. The umps, if one were so inclined to defend their actions, could cite the need for an immediate decision and the support for their decisions in the good book (to be clear, I am not making that argument; they shit the bed). MLB had time to contemplate what happened and formulate a thoughtful response, and THAT pile of garbage is the best they could come up with. Sad commentary.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Can we get Bob Watson back?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Just a point of information. the on-field disciplinarian in the MLB office is Joe Garagiola Jr, not Joe Torre

 

[Fred in Lynn]

I'd like the option of continuing to rail against Joe Torre if that's possible. Being accurate or precise in this instance doesn't matter to me.

 

[JimD]

Workman's hearing will be this Friday.  The timing really sucks because I can't imagine him getting it cut back to three games or less - there's no way he's making his planned start on Sunday and he'll probably be suspended at least until Tuesday (which would have the same effect as just dropping the appeal before tonight's game). 

 

[donutogre]

Sigh, appeal denied, begins serving six-game suspension today.

Workman's 6-game suspension has not been reduced; he begins serving it today, club announced
— Gordon Edes (@GordonEdes) June 18, 2014

 

[Stitch01]

When Longoria or Myers gets hit in the wrist and misses time later this year, that's on MLB.

 

[BosRedSox5]

MLB had a chance to correct a big mistake they made and they blew it. Big surprise.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

When Longoria or Myers gets hit in the wrist and misses time later this year, that's on MLB.

 
Can we sign Al Reyes to a 1-day contract?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

MLB had a chance to correct a big mistake they made and they blew it. Big surprise.

 
MLB at least was consistent in how they handled a similar situation last weekend.  Braves pitcher David Carpenter threw at and hit a Rockies player after he caught their catcher in the head with his follow-through (Ortiz style) and the catcher had to leave the game.  Rockies reliever Nick Masset retaliated by throwing at a Brave the following inning.  Masset got 3 games.  Carpenter, who started the nonsense, gets off with just a fine.
 
The lesson, of course, being to always throw the first punch because it's the counter that's going to get you punished.

 

[epraz]

MLB had a chance to correct a big mistake they made and they blew it. Big surprise.

 
Workman threw at/behind Longoria.  Workman's suspension isn't the mistake, the mistake is the lack of punishment of the Rays.  How do you not suspend Price?