Who's On First? - The Wild Card Roster

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,348
Will there be a specific main board thread for discussion of the WC roster or will it be here?
I'm somewhat horrified that Iglesias isn't available for the post-season. But I get it. I think you have to go with Arroyo there for defense. And when he gets locked in he can be a potent bat- which hopefully he'll do. I was happy to see him work a BB in his one plate appearance yesterday.
The big question is the Dalbec-1B-DH jam... it's obviously an easy answer if JDM's ankle is too injured for him to play the field... but then is it too squirrely for him to DH, and if it isn't, then what's the outfield alignment and... who's on first!?!?!
Defensively it's Kiké in CF, Renfroe in RF and Verdugo in LF.
Dalbec still looks like a better defensive 1B than Schwarber... which is really something. wow. But then they're facing Cole. So I dunno..... it's a tangled mess.
Plawecki has to get the start.

I would, with some serious lack of confidence, put forth:
Hernandez CF
Schwarber 1B
Devers 3B
X SS
JDM DH (I'm assuming his ankle is fine)
Renfroe RF
Verdugo LF
Plawecki C
Arroyo 2B

If JDM's ankle is injured, switch Schwarber and Dalbec
I can also see Hernandez at 2B, with Dalbec at 1B, Dugo in CF and Schwarber in LF if JDM's ankle is okay.
My preference is the long list.

But whatevz. All it boils down to is: Fuck the Motherfucking Yankees!
 

Merkle's Boner

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2011
3,757
Who replaces Iglesias and Shaw on the post-season roster? Could we have a Duran sighting for late-game Dave Roberts duties?
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,243
One good thing about HFA is less acreage in the Fenway OF for the Sox glacial defenders than in the Bronx. Gives Cora a bit more leeway.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,348
Moved this from the game thread to start the discussion.
Thanks.
What are the rules for the WC roster and the ALDS roster? Can they change it up? I'd be inclined to add Seabold to the WC just in case it drags into extra innings and both teams have gone through their pens and it's looking like a slog.
Also... what are the actual extra innings rules for the WC as far as starting a runner on 2B? Is that gone? Hopefully.
 

nattysez

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2010
8,435
Teams submit a 26-man roster (it was 25, prior to 2020) prior to each round of the postseason comprised of postseason-eligible players. A club may request permission from the Commissioner's Office to replace a player who is injured during the course of a series, but that player is then ineligible for the rest of that round and the subsequent round, if there is one. A pitcher may be replaced only by another pitcher, and a position player only by another position player.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/postseason-roster-rules-eligibility

My understanding is that the ghost runners are not used in extra innings in the post-season, but it's surprisingly hard to find a citation for that.
 

RIrooter09

Alvin
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2008
7,254
It's got to be Plawecki at C.

The question is do you sacrifice D at first (probably not much) with Schwarber, or in LF and CF by having Schwarber and Verdugo out there? Dalbec is probably a slight offensive upgrade over Arroyo but not worth the drop off in D IMO. I agree with Sandy's proposed lineup.
 

Yo La Tengo

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2005
913
I think the Schwarber at first experiment has to end as the Sox cannot give away outs moving forward. He should DH with JDM as a pinch hitter tomorrow and then, hopefully, in future games Cora and crew will have to consider when to play Verdugo/Schwarber/JDM. I agree that Arroyo should start at 2B.
 

Coachster

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2009
8,945
New Hampshire
I forgot that Shaw was ineligible for post-season too, as well as Iggy.

Those roster spots will be interesting to fill. Duran can run, but he's not a good base stealer (yet) and he really isn't a strong defender. Do we need another infielder? Here comes Jonathan Arauz, I guess. Franchy wouldn't do us a bit of good. Wong? It's too bad our better minor league guys are not ready for this post-season.
 

RIrooter09

Alvin
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2008
7,254
Just how bad has Schwarber been at 1B? I haven't watched much of him there. Dalbec's D certainly has been nothing special.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,922
Shaw should be eligible, the Sox signed him on 8/15.

You don’t need as many pitchers so I’m assuming a bench of Plawecki, Shaw, Dalbec/Arroyo, and Arauz?
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
Just how bad has Schwarber been at 1B? I haven't watched much of him there. Dalbec's D certainly has been nothing special.
In a phrase: historically bad. Per BRef, in just 10 games Schwarber has been a -3 in defensive runs saved at 1B, which over a full season would mean -43. While obviously if Schwarber played 150+ games at 1B he would presumably improve defensively, for context the worst season in modern history by this metric is Adam Dunn's 2009 for the Nationals, when he was a -43 at 1B/LF/RF.

Schwarber's tenure at 1B will probably be remembered for that time in the first game of the Yankees series last weekend when he let that popup drop behind him, with honorable mention to Saturday in the 7th inning against the Nats when Braiser dropped his awkward panic shovel to 1B to load the bases, when it seemed like Schwarber could have just tagged the runner himself.

I think you have to put Dalbec at 1B on Tuesday. If JD hadn't tripped over the bag yesterday (still hard to believe when typing that) there might be temptation to have Hernandez at 2B, Schwarber in LF, and JD DH, but now that JD seems likely limited to PH duties that moves Schwarber to DH. Here's the lineup I expect against Cole:

CF - Hernandez (R)
DH - Schwarber (L)
SS - Bogaerts (R)
3B - Devers (L)
RF - Renfroe (R)
LF - Verdugo (L)
1B - Dalbec (R)
C - Vazquez (R)
2B - Arroyo (R)

This is similar to the lineup the Sox used on 9/24 against Cole, with some critical differences:
- JD missing after Devers
- Verdugo and Renfroe swapped because Cora seems to like alternate L/R
- Edited to put Vazquez in there at C because this is what I "expect." I'd probably prefer starting with Plawecki because of the ERA splits for who catches Eo (I believe it's Plawecki 90 IP, 3.50 ERA, 2.49 FIP, .651 OPS vs. Vazquez 66 IP, 4.77 ERA, 3.47 FIP, .766 OPS per this tweet)
 
Last edited:

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,376
Guys, Plawecki isn’t gonna start. It’s Vaz moving forward unless something crazy happens.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
After Eovaldi’s last start against NYY using CV, I’m willing to bet you’re wrong on this one. The numbers are pretty startling.
It also would give Cora a natural place to PH LHH Shaw if the Yankees bring in a lefty to face the RH Dalbec/Plawecki/Arroyo/Hernandez 7-8-9-1. But it's a close call -- Vazquez offers better career numbers against Cole, and especially with JD out of the lineup that's not irrelevant.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
I think you have to put Dalbec at 1B on Tuesday.
The problem is that Dalbec sucks (ok, this year he's been "just" mediocre) against righties. So it comes down to whether you're willing to sacrifice that drop in offense for improved defense.

I think I come out the same as you because JDM has been poor lately, and even a minor injury isn't going to help in that regard. But it's not a clear-cut decision so on this one I am comfortable deferring to Cora/Bloom because they have a shitton more data on this than we do.
 

The Filthy One

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 11, 2005
3,451
Los Angeles
It's going to be very interesting to see what they do with the bench. Here's a guess at the 26-man roster for Tuesday (This assumes Taylor is not able to return and that JDM is at least able to pinch-hit):

Pitchers
Eovaldi
Whitlock
Robles
Houck
Brasier
Davis
Hernandez
Sawamura
Pivetta
Rodriguez
Sale
Barnes

Position Players
Hernandez
Schwarber
Renfroe
JDM
Verdugo
Dalbec
Bogaerts
Devers
Arroyo
Vazquez
Plawecki
Shaw
Duran
Arauz

Personally, I would carry Wong on the bench and drop Barnes, but I don't think that's what Cora will do. Having Wong available allows Cora to be super aggressive in pinch-hitting Shaw for one of the catchers in a big spot.
 

Sausage in Section 17

Poker Champ
SoSH Member
Mar 17, 2004
2,086
It's going to be very interesting to see what they do with the bench. Here's a guess at the 26-man roster for Tuesday (This assumes Taylor is not able to return and that JDM is at least able to pinch-hit):

Pitchers
Eovaldi
Whitlock
Robles
Houck
Brasier
Davis
Hernandez
Sawamura
Pivetta
Rodriguez
Sale
Barnes

Position Players
Hernandez
Schwarber
Renfroe
JDM
Verdugo
Dalbec
Bogaerts
Devers
Arroyo
Vazquez
Plawecki
Shaw
Duran
Arauz

Personally, I would carry Wong on the bench and drop Barnes, but I don't think that's what Cora will do. Having Wong available allows Cora to be super aggressive in pinch-hitting Shaw for one of the catchers in a big spot.
Ottavino? Has to be him
Instead of Darwinson or Davis, I’d think.

Does roster strategy change due to it being one game playoff? I assume Sale won’t pitch, so why even put him on the roster?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,922
Cole is a terrible matchup for most batters, but especially Dalbec. If JD is healthy enough to DH, I’d probably bite the bullet and go with Schwarber at first and leave Bobby on the bench. If not, maybe start Shaw at first? 3-17 off Cole, but two homers. I dunno, not a lot of great options.
 

Sausage in Section 17

Poker Champ
SoSH Member
Mar 17, 2004
2,086
To answer my own question above, I don’t think we’re going to use 12 pitchers in one game. But it might be nice to have an army of pinch-hitters to exploit the best possible matchups against their bullpen. I’m not sure what the rules allow, but for one game it seems maybe having 9-10 pitchers max, and the rest of the roster filled out with the best pinch-hitting/extra defense options would be the strongest way to go.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,299
deep inside Guido territory
This is what I would do if JDM can go. I left off Richards.

Hernandez CF
Schwarber 1B
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Verdugo LF
Martinez DH
Renfroe RF
Vazquez C
Arroyo 2B
Eovaldi SP

Bench
Plawecki
Dalbec
Arauz
Shaw
Duran

Pitchers
Whitlock
Robles
Houck
Ottavino
Brasier
Sawamura
Davis
Hernandez
Pivetta
ERod
Sale
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,922
Problem is that they don’t really have any eligible players to choose from that offer much in the way of PH, PR, or defense.

Assuming Shaw makes the roster, you are left with choosing between Arauz, Duran, Cordero, Santana, and Wong to fill out the roster. I guess Duran could make sense?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,283
AZ
Did Sale throw too many pitches yesterday to be a possible Lefty One to Three Batters Guy?
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
The problem is that Dalbec sucks (ok, this year he's been "just" mediocre) against righties. So it comes down to whether you're willing to sacrifice that drop in offense for improved defense.

I think I come out the same as you because JDM has been poor lately, and even a minor injury isn't going to help in that regard. But it's not a clear-cut decision so on this one I am comfortable deferring to Cora/Bloom because they have a shitton more data on this than we do.
Yes, agreed that I'll defer to Cora/Cloom here, but, I was assuming that JD isn't well enough to DH tomorrow. If he is, I guess I go with @RedOctober3829 's lineup above with JD and Verdugo flipped. In other words, this is exactly the lineup the Sox trotted out on 9/24 against Cole (with Arroyo instead of Iglesias). Renfroe batted 7th because I think Cora likes go R/L as much as possible:

Hernandez CF - R
Schwarber 1B - L
Bogaerts SS - R
Devers 3B - L
Martinez DH - R
Verdugo LF - L
Renfroe RF - R
Vazquez C - R
Arroyo 2B - R

To answer my own question above, I don’t think we’re going to use 12 pitchers in one game. But it might be nice to have an army of pinch-hitters to exploit the best possible matchups against their bullpen. I’m not sure what the rules allow, but for one game it seems maybe having 9-10 pitchers max, and the rest of the roster filled out with the best pinch-hitting/extra defense options would be the strongest way to go.
It's true that this is different in the "3 batters minimum" era, but a complication is that the "runner on 2nd rule" is gone now that it's the playoffs, so now there's a higher chance of an extended extra inning game.

I would be tempted to go with maybe 11 pitchers and pencil someone in for "emergency 40-50 pitches in extras" (Pivetta?).
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Are ERod and Sale both necessary on tomorrow's roster?
Good question. I would say we need neither
Did Sale throw too many pitches yesterday to be a possible Lefty One to Three Batters Guy?
That it just that I want him to be able to start Game 2 of the ALDS should it come to pass, and we will be praying we get PLAYOFF CHRIS SALE for upcoming outings.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Good question. I would say we need neither

That it just that I want him to be able to start Game 2 of the ALDS should it come to pass, and we will be praying we get PLAYOFF CHRIS SALE for upcoming outings.
Given his short outing yesterday, it's possible Sale could be okay to start Game 1 on Thursday if it came to it. I would call it a lock outside of the fact he's still coming off TJS and they seem to want to be extra careful with him.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
Good question. I would say we need neither

That it just that I want him to be able to start Game 2 of the ALDS should it come to pass, and we will be praying we get PLAYOFF CHRIS SALE for upcoming outings.
I think (and sort of hope) Cora will manage this game as if the future doesn't exist and worry about tomorrow tomorrow.

Sale I'm pretty hopeful will be on the WC roster (if the training staff allows it with his TJ recovery) because I'd trust him (even on 1 day rest) for 3 batters if the Yankees have 2 LHH coming up (Gallo/Gardner, Odor/Rizzo, etc.). I also think you need 1 of ERod or Pivetta in case the game goes into extra innings -- no preference there.

As far a Sale starting Game 2 of the ALDS on Friday, normally I would imagine he could throw 62 pitches on a Sunday, ~15-20 on a Tuesday (his throwing day?), and still start and throw 70-90 pitches on "normal-ish" rest on a Friday. But obviously we don't know what kind of restrictions (if any?) he's still under from the training staff.
 
Last edited:

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,283
AZ
So the guy with a 5.76 ERA?
It's slim pickings with Lefties out the bullpen.

I think Darwinzon is option 1. I guess Martin Perez is option 2? After that, it's Austin Davis, EdRo, and Sale.

If it's bases loaded with two out and Rizzo at the plate protecting a one-run lead and Darwinzon has pitched already, I probably go with Sale.
 

RIrooter09

Alvin
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2008
7,254
I was just replying to "playoff Chris Sale" which has never been a thing. There's pre-injury Chris Sale, and post injury. Also didn't we learn our lesson last series? Rizzo handles lefties very well, I'm not sure we need more than one for this game.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,283
AZ
I was just replying to "playoff Chris Sale" which has never been a thing. There's pre-injury Chris Sale, and post injury. Also didn't we learn our lesson last series? Rizzo handles lefties very well, I'm not sure we need more than one for this game.
Yeah, maybe that's right. Gallo too but with Rizzo having success against lefties maybe you leave a righty in to face him.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,692
Miami (oh, Miami!)
I think (and sort of hope) Cora will manage this game as if the future doesn't exist and worry about tomorrow tomorrow.
I'd agree it ought to be a quick-hook All-Hands approach. (Within reason though - no need to burn an expected Game 1 starter if they're up 5 in the 7th or the like.)
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,220
Portland
The wild card game roster size is too big for the AL - particularly with the three batter rule.

Using a very different team for one specific game is really strange. I like it from a fan perspective, but I think it needs some tweaking.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,922
The wild card game roster size is too big for the AL - particularly with the three batter rule.

Using a very different team for one specific game is really strange. I like it from a fan perspective, but I think it needs some tweaking.
Simple solution would be that you can’t chance your roster from the WC game to the divisional series , unless there’s an injury.

That being said, how different will the Sox roster be for the WC game? They are somewhat limited in choices.
 

ObstructedView

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
3,237
Maine
I realize it's unlikely and something they haven't really done all year, but I'd prefer to have Schwarber at leadoff since he sees a lot of pitches and has a knack for getting on base. He just generally has smart ABs, and I'd love to have a tone-setter at the top of the lineup. We don't run at all, so the speed thing is immaterial.
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,220
Portland
Simple solution would be that you can’t chance your roster from the WC game to the divisional series , unless there’s an injury.

That being said, how different will the Sox roster be for the WC game? They are somewhat limited in choices.
I think that's the fix.
It's not so much the Sox' personnel, it's that teams really only need 10 pitchers at most because of the 3 batter rule. Most have been running with 13 and have usually needed them. Now you can pinch hit to your heart's content if you want which just wasn't possible all year.
 

geoduck no quahog

not particularly consistent
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 8, 2002
13,024
Seattle, WA
I already have nightmares about Schwarber playing 1B in a winner-take-all game. It's not about the special plays (pop-ups, pitcher covering, etc.) - it's about the normal plays: securing the ball after bad throws from Devers and Bogaerts.

I'd play Schwarber in LF and sit Verdugo if Martinez is actually DH'ing. The only other alternative is Verdugo in CF and Hernandez at 2B (with Schwarber in LF). If JDM is out, problem solved and the Red Sox have their best defensive outfield along with Dalbec at 1st. I'd keep Shaw on the bench. Please...keep Hernandez in CF, particularly in Fenway where no one but Renfroe should touch RF.

I agree that Cora will never not start Vazquez, which is too bad.

For me, it comes down to whether or not Verdugo's offense versus Arroyo's is strong enough to justify playing Hernandez at 2B with a Schwarber/Verdugo outfield.

I hate to say it, but my favored lineup has no JDM - which sounds ridiculous as I type it..
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2006
35,627
Maui
Teams submit a 26-man roster (it was 25, prior to 2020) prior to each round of the postseason comprised of postseason-eligible players. A club may request permission from the Commissioner's Office to replace a player who is injured during the course of a series, but that player is then ineligible for the rest of that round and the subsequent round, if there is one. A pitcher may be replaced only by another pitcher, and a position player only by another position player.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/postseason-roster-rules-eligibility
I think the bolded answers the question of keeping Sale or ERod off the WC Roster. They can be eligible for the Divisional Series as a new roster is submitted. So I think you play the 26 you need to win the one game.
 

MuellerToldHisTale

New Member
Oct 29, 2018
395
New Jersey
I realize it's unlikely and something they haven't really done all year, but I'd prefer to have Schwarber at leadoff since he sees a lot of pitches and has a knack for getting on base. He just generally has smart ABs, and I'd love to have a tone-setter at the top of the lineup. We don't run at all, so the speed thing is immaterial.
Agreed. Highest OBP on the team, and he just seems to have the most intelligent abs. Not sure if it adds value, but I also like the idea of switching things up a bit and not firing out the exact same lineup/batting order that Cole saw last series.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,348
I already have nightmares about Schwarber playing 1B in a winner-take-all game. It's not about the special plays (pop-ups, pitcher covering, etc.) - it's about the normal plays: securing the ball after bad throws from Devers and Bogaerts.

I'd play Schwarber in LF and sit Verdugo if Martinez is actually DH'ing. The only other alternative is Verdugo in CF and Hernandez at 2B (with Schwarber in LF). If JDM is out, problem solved and the Red Sox have their best defensive outfield along with Dalbec at 1st. I'd keep Shaw on the bench. Please...keep Hernandez in CF, particularly in Fenway where no one but Renfroe should touch RF.

I agree that Cora will never not start Vazquez, which is too bad.

For me, it comes down to whether or not Verdugo's offense versus Arroyo's is strong enough to justify playing Hernandez at 2B with a Schwarber/Verdugo outfield.

I hate to say it, but my favored lineup has no JDM - which sounds ridiculous as I type it..
It is ridiculous. I get it.... he's been a disappointment in the same way the Sox have been a disappointment. They're still good but after about mid season they (and JDM) forced us to reconfigure out expectations and then they (and he) was kinda crappy. Keep in mind that this was coming off a shitty 2020 season (both Sox and JDM). But overall he was still a very good hitter and any time you can get him into a lineup, you have to.
The issue for me is the bottle-neck that Bloom created and the crappy defensive configurations that the lineup has to do in order to get Schwarber, Dalbec and JDM all into the lineup. Would have been nice if JDM just learned how to play first when he was signed to be the DH but he didn't want to....