Who's going to catch?
- Thread starter johnlos
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I will say, as the resident Connor Wong hater, his collapse last year began at about the time his wife gave birth. Best case scenario, life has normalized and he can show big improvement this year. Worst case, it sounds like Narvaez will be a better defensice replacement than Jansen was.
Interesting.
Still, in December I'd imagine we should take things with a fairly large grain of salt. It would be one thing if in February when pitchers & catchers report Breslow is still saying he's comfortable going into the season with the catchers they have, but we aren't there yet and he might just be hedging in case nothing with a veteran works out.
Even if you're "bullish" on Navarez you probably want to head to Ft. Myers with another option until you see how he looks in the spring and whether he's really ready to be a full-time MLB backup.
Even if Narvaez is the major league backup, they still need a catcher at AAA ready to call up in case of injury. Teel is gone, Gasper is gone. Who is slotted in to be this guy?
Ah yes, forgot about that signing. I guess that's true. Hard to get too excited about a guy with a 45 wRC+ the last two seasons, but he does seem to be good behind the dish per Fangraph metrics.
I do expect them to add at least one more true catcher in AAA, but Nathan Hickey is also down there, along with Zavala.
I think it's harder to do that move with catchers cause they're so integrated with the whole pitching staff and there's less flexibility in replacing them. Like I'd happily trade for Tyler Stephenson from CIN but there's nobody behind him so I don't see how they let him go.
Also next year's FA class is pretty miserable, Realmuto and Caratini and a bunch of old bad guys, so the pure rental market isn't enticing.
They have Jose Trevino now but they got him because Stephenson wasn't good defensively and I think they're hoping Trevino can help him with that.
The Sox Prospects guys were pretty bullish on both Wong improving his defense and Narvaez as a major league backup. Apparently we've added a catching instructor, Parker Quinn, from the Yankees, and their approach to teaching catcher defense is highly regarded.
He's the game planning and run prevention coach. I know he's kind of a legend as far as his own pre-game prep as a player goes, I'm not really sure how that's translated as a coach. Ironically he was the catching coach up until this coming season.
I'm sure he has real insight into many dimensions of catcher defense, but it's always weird to me when people expect that people who are great at something would necessarily be great at teaching it to others. Like, maybe, but that's a different skill.
A few things around this discussion are true:
1) The Yankees have produced an insane amount of MLB catchers in the past few years, guys who started with them and also veterans they fixed up somehow. They have traded six catchers including Narvaez since October 2023, all of whom will or could have MLB jobs this year, and have four more (including Ben Rice) on the 40 man still. They traded Jose Trevino after Narvaez, trading your #2 and #3 catchers as a contender in December shows that you have a lot of confidence in your pipeline continuing to produce, and NY does indeed have guys next up like JC Escarra (is old but just won the Dominican League batting title at .363 and has three options) and Rafael Flores (not on the 40 man yet but had a .878 OPS in 273 PAs in AA), Alex Jackson is an interesting addition here too.
2) Narvaez will be a good defensive MLB catcher if given a few starts per week, his offense is much less clear but there is some potential IMO.
Parker Quinn specifically is the part I am pushing back on, BOS did hire him from NY to help with the catching but I don't see anything catcher-specific in his coaching resume.
"The addition of Quinn will take a load off Jason Varitek, who has done the bulk of catching instruction for the club in recent years, in addition to his many other roles on the coaching staff.
The 31-year-old Quinn joins the Red Sox from the rival Yankees, where he was the manager of New York’s Dominican Summer League club. Quinn’s move to pro baseball happened after he worked in several different roles in college baseball, including assistant coach at the University of Washington, head coach at Everett Community College, assistant coach at the University of Utah, graduate assistant coach at the University of Washington and assistant coach at Southern Illinois Edwardsville University."
That doesn't mean he will not be a helpful hire, but I don't think he can be credited much with NY's recent C development success (but also I might be wrong, just going from that story.)
https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-set-2025-coaching-staff
Tanner Swanson is NY's primary catching coach guru, the Matt Blake equivalent there. NY grabbed him from MIN in Nov 2019 and have been doing a much better job developing catchers since.
1) The Yankees have produced an insane amount of MLB catchers in the past few years, guys who started with them and also veterans they fixed up somehow. They have traded six catchers including Narvaez since October 2023, all of whom will or could have MLB jobs this year, and have four more (including Ben Rice) on the 40 man still. They traded Jose Trevino after Narvaez, trading your #2 and #3 catchers as a contender in December shows that you have a lot of confidence in your pipeline continuing to produce, and NY does indeed have guys next up like JC Escarra (is old but just won the Dominican League batting title at .363 and has three options) and Rafael Flores (not on the 40 man yet but had a .878 OPS in 273 PAs in AA), Alex Jackson is an interesting addition here too.
2) Narvaez will be a good defensive MLB catcher if given a few starts per week, his offense is much less clear but there is some potential IMO.
Parker Quinn specifically is the part I am pushing back on, BOS did hire him from NY to help with the catching but I don't see anything catcher-specific in his coaching resume.
"The addition of Quinn will take a load off Jason Varitek, who has done the bulk of catching instruction for the club in recent years, in addition to his many other roles on the coaching staff.
The 31-year-old Quinn joins the Red Sox from the rival Yankees, where he was the manager of New York’s Dominican Summer League club. Quinn’s move to pro baseball happened after he worked in several different roles in college baseball, including assistant coach at the University of Washington, head coach at Everett Community College, assistant coach at the University of Utah, graduate assistant coach at the University of Washington and assistant coach at Southern Illinois Edwardsville University."
That doesn't mean he will not be a helpful hire, but I don't think he can be credited much with NY's recent C development success (but also I might be wrong, just going from that story.)
https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-set-2025-coaching-staff
Tanner Swanson is NY's primary catching coach guru, the Matt Blake equivalent there. NY grabbed him from MIN in Nov 2019 and have been doing a much better job developing catchers since.
I completely understand what you're saying, but for the past five seasons "catching coach" was a part of his official team title.
Here's the thing, though: A player might not be able to improve beyond a certain level, based on their own abilities, no matter who the coach is. For all we know, this is the best version of Wong defensively that we're going to get, and Tek's coaching tips helped him get to this level.
Connor Wong is a good enough athlete and showed enough with the bat last year that they kinda need to roll the dice with him for another year. He's improved a ton defensively since joining the system and has reduced his K rate significantly.
I don't think he'll ever be a good defensive catcher, but if he can be merely acceptable, his offensive ceiling (let's say league average offense) would make him a very valuable piece.
Wong wiht acceptable defense is kind of a poor man's version of what wehoped Teel would become.
I don't think he'll ever be a good defensive catcher, but if he can be merely acceptable, his offensive ceiling (let's say league average offense) would make him a very valuable piece.
Wong wiht acceptable defense is kind of a poor man's version of what wehoped Teel would become.
Honestly, it might be Travis D’arnaud who just signed with the Angels this offseason. Feels like he would’ve been a worthwhile signing, but what’s done is done.
Towards that end, there’s an instructional model that is based on progressive combinations of Consciousness and Competence.
We all start off (1) Unconsciously Incompetent with new skills. We don’t even know what we don’t know.
Next we become (2) Consciously Incompetent as we strive to learn.
With effort and reps, we eventually become (3) Consciously Competent—we are good but we have to work at it.
At the level of mastery we are (4) Unconsciously Competent—we can do whatever it is in our sleep.
My understanding and experience of this model is that the best teachers are those who are at Level 3, and in fact may top out at that level because they never reached mastery. It’s perhaps why Walt Hriniak (to pick an old example) was a highly regarded hitting coach, while Ted Williams was not so successful in a managerial/coaching role.
Said more plainly, Tek might have forgotten too much of what made him a good catcher to be able to teach it to others.
Are there days when we need offense more and days we need defense more? Not even trying to be sarcastic. Do we have certain starters we think defense will matter more for?
Or is there hope Navarez will learn to hit? Since he's been a 100 wRC+ guy in repeated AAA seasons at age 24-25. Seems more likely than them being able to teach Wong to catch at 29.
Hickey was demoted to AA for 106 PA after struggling at AAA and wasn't great back in AA either. Haven't heard why but wonder if they're reworking his swing or something.
If you'd like a probably unwarranted dose of optimism, he's currently got a 1.118 OPS in the Venezuelan winter league, up 400 points from his stint there last year.
Interesting point. Although clearly some 4s become good coaches too...maybe somewhat because people to listen to them and somewhat because they have insight on the 3->4 transition.
Wong's worst deficiencies seem to be in blocking and framing. I'm hopeful that robots will soon obviate the second problem, but for 2025 at least we're stuck with Wong's wandering mitt.
Blocking is a bigger problem: Wong seems to be reluctant to dive and use his body armor to stop wild pitches from getting to the backstop. He would rather reach, especially on the backhand, than sprawl and smother. I think this is a problem that will survive the coming of AI umps.
Good blocking skills disproportionately benefit pitchers who throw a lot of pitches in the dirt. In this category I would put Houck and Bello, who alternate sinkers with offspeed pitches below the knees.
Crawford is (and Pivetta was) dependent on the high fastball. Well-placed catchers' targets help fastball pitchers a lot. Overall they throw fewer pitches in the dirt, so Wong's failings may hurt them less.
Crochet, Buehler and Giolito? I'm looking forward to seeing how their stuff plays for the Red Sox, and whether they can get swinging strikes without throwing pitches in the dirt.
From everything I have read and listened to on podcasts he is not going to cut it behind the plate regardless. He's basically an organizational guy at this point.
Bizarre how much he struggled. I've been thinking that the roboumps there would be an advantage to guys like him who have pretty good strike zone judgement but struggle with whiffs. Instead his K rate went over 30% for the first time and the power basically disappeared. Disappointing!
That's fair. I was going to post about this earlier but the only information I could find was the same article you're referencing. However, there's also not a ton of information in general about player dev moves and what they mean. I'm a religious Sox Prospects podcast listener and they've talked about this move a couple times like Quinn's bringing at least some organizational knowledge over. Who knows, but they do regularly talk to player dev folks.
And I don't think it's a crazy stretch to think that the DSL coach would be pretty familiar with his organization's catching philosophy. Especially if he's just been hired by the Sox to be their catching instructor. But you're right, not much info out there on the specifics.
I don't disagree with anything here, just saying it's not like BOS grabbed NY's catcher guru (who is Tanner Swanson, and who I hope NY is paying a very big salary to).
Wonder if there will be any interest by Breslow?
Former Dodgers #1 Cartaya designated
He was Dodgers # 1 by BA for 2022 and 2023.
Former Dodgers #1 Cartaya designated
He was Dodgers # 1 by BA for 2022 and 2023.
Yeah, he hasn’t hit above A ball. But he’s only 23.3 years old and, as we all know, Cs can blossom late. Maybe worth it if it comes cheap. But when you deal with the Dodgers you gotta beware that they don’t steal some hidden gem (see Busch trade for Zyhir Hope + Jackson Ferris).
Given the lack of catching talent in the majors in general, I think there will be a lot of interest around baseball in giving up something of value for Cartaya.
It's hard to imagine he has much of an offensive ceiling at this point, but reports on his defense have been good the past few years.
I would be disappointed if the Red Sox weren't aggressive here. Cartaya at AAA sounds a lot more appealing than, say, signing Elias Diaz at this point in the off-season.
Trade targets I'm thinking about: two contending NL teams (Braves and Brewers) have elite starting catchers Sean Murphy and William Contreras but also high-end catching prospects in AAA: Drake Baldwin for Atlanta and Jeferson Quero for Milwaukee. Quero is the higher ranked prospect, but he also just had a season-ending labrum surgery, so that's maybe a bit ominous depending on how the medicals look. (He also reached AAA at 21 and was a preseason top-50 prospect leaguewide.)
In the Braves case, Murphy is probably more available than Baldwin; in the Brewers case, I'd imagine Contreras is entirely off the table in trades, but perhaps not, in which case Quero may be blocked and thus perhaps available.
In the Braves case, Murphy is probably more available than Baldwin; in the Brewers case, I'd imagine Contreras is entirely off the table in trades, but perhaps not, in which case Quero may be blocked and thus perhaps available.
Harry Ford in Seattle is another one.
It’s challenging to work trade scenarios with Seattle without Casas being involved. He is by far the most obvious fit given their current roster and the wave of positional talent they have coming in the near term.
The Braves seem like a much more natural fit involving Abreu.
Do we think that after the Crochet trade showed the Sox moving prospects for cheap major league talent that the Sox are going to trade away their best pre-arb/arb talent? They didn't move Casas or Abreu or Duran to get Crochet--so why would they move them for one of these lesser players?
Sean Murphy is at perhaps his lowest value ever. His contract is very much at risk of becoming an albatross, as catchers tend to fall apart in their 30's, and he was (1) very injured last year and (2) very bad when he was not injured. I'd think we'd be able to get him a top 20 prospect and a lottery ticket as long as we took on the contract.
Quero is interesting as a target...but he tore his labrum, so how effective of a catcher he will be is an open question. And frankly he hasn't been any more impressive than Narvaez in the upper minors. A wrc+ of 107 in AA in 2023 before tearing the labrum. If we gave up anything for him, it would be some AA or AAA pitching.
Sean Murphy is at perhaps his lowest value ever. His contract is very much at risk of becoming an albatross, as catchers tend to fall apart in their 30's, and he was (1) very injured last year and (2) very bad when he was not injured. I'd think we'd be able to get him a top 20 prospect and a lottery ticket as long as we took on the contract.
Quero is interesting as a target...but he tore his labrum, so how effective of a catcher he will be is an open question. And frankly he hasn't been any more impressive than Narvaez in the upper minors. A wrc+ of 107 in AA in 2023 before tearing the labrum. If we gave up anything for him, it would be some AA or AAA pitching.
I don't know, Fishy1. It's the age/level stuff that makes Quero a legitimate prospect and Narvaez (whom I like a lot!) has been two years older at each level.
I disagree, with the caveat that I'm not sure what our definition of "legitimate" is.
Age is important only insofar as we're using it to evaluate performance, but performance is what makes any prospect legitimate. And while Quero has pedigree, the performance hasn't been impressive.
A 116 wrc+ in 2022 as a 19 year old is fine, but not mind-blowing. A 107 at AA at 20 is not impressive. It's just barely above average. Optimistically, it means he has room to grow. And in that sense being young for the level doesn't really mean anything other than that he's got more time to figure things out. Any maybe he will, with his pedigree!
But the real issue for me is that labral tears are very serious. He might return to play effectively, but it might take him a while, and he might struggle defensively. There's just no way to know. He might not feel like himself till he's 24 or 25.
Thoughts about Blake Sabol of the Giants?
An extremely inexperienced catcher who was picked up as a Rule 5 player and was on the MLB roster in 2023 when he played multiple positions. Prior to 2023, he had played on 25 games in AAA and he spent most of last year in the minors.
Here is a blurb from Grant Bisbee: "Catching is hard, and I’ve been pretty dismissive of Sabol’s defensive acumen. His blocking skills were the worst in the league by a wide margin. Baseball Savant has a stat called Blocks Above Average per Game, and Sabol wasn’t just the worst in baseball — he was almost twice as bad as the second worst. But his framing was strong. His pop time was fine. His arm was fine. He did plenty right behind the plate, as it turns out. He was just horrible at keeping the ball in front of him, relative to other catchers.
He is a tall lefty with a .753 OPS against RHP over 329 PAs in the majors.
The last thing the Sox need is another athletic catcher who struggles to catch the ball. But I'm intrigued by Sabol because of his relative inexperience as a catcher, his good defensive skills other than blocking, and his surprisingly effective play in the majors.
An extremely inexperienced catcher who was picked up as a Rule 5 player and was on the MLB roster in 2023 when he played multiple positions. Prior to 2023, he had played on 25 games in AAA and he spent most of last year in the minors.
Here is a blurb from Grant Bisbee: "Catching is hard, and I’ve been pretty dismissive of Sabol’s defensive acumen. His blocking skills were the worst in the league by a wide margin. Baseball Savant has a stat called Blocks Above Average per Game, and Sabol wasn’t just the worst in baseball — he was almost twice as bad as the second worst. But his framing was strong. His pop time was fine. His arm was fine. He did plenty right behind the plate, as it turns out. He was just horrible at keeping the ball in front of him, relative to other catchers.
He is a tall lefty with a .753 OPS against RHP over 329 PAs in the majors.
The last thing the Sox need is another athletic catcher who struggles to catch the ball. But I'm intrigued by Sabol because of his relative inexperience as a catcher, his good defensive skills other than blocking, and his surprisingly effective play in the majors.
Not sure why this bums me out..
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The Twins have acquired former top catching prospect Diego Cartaya from the Dodgers in exchange for minor league right-hander Jose Vasquez, per announcements from both clubs. Cartaya was designated for assignment earlier in the week. Minnesota had an open 40-man roster spot, and their roster is now full.
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The Twins have acquired former top catching prospect Diego Cartaya from the Dodgers in exchange for minor league right-hander Jose Vasquez, per announcements from both clubs. Cartaya was designated for assignment earlier in the week. Minnesota had an open 40-man roster spot, and their roster is now full.
I was hoping they’d make a move for him as well. Seemed like a no brainer given the upside and low cost, along with the lack of depth.
Frustrating. Cartaya seemed like the perfect "buy low" catching prospect this offseason.
Agreed. I was not interested in having him on the 40 man. This is Cartaya's last option year too, I think. So the Twins probably have to DFA him next year unless he turns it around quickly.