At this point I'm willing to bet that Ranaudo gets Clay's start this weekend on his normal rest. What were the odds 3 years ago that two of our organizations best arms would both go Bard and Buchholz on us?
You are always in "evaluation mode" at the big league level.HomeRunBaker said:We aren't yet in "evaluation mode" at the big league level. If things continue on this path we are on we'll have plenty of innings and starts available to evaluate anyone we want. You can make a case for all three but they each have their issues to where you can make a case against each as well. To me, Webster is out based on his struggles in Boston last year and failure to be consistent this year. My case for Renaudo over Rubby was simply based on one spot start being on his normal rest unlike when Workman pitched on 8 days rest last week.
You always evaluate minor league players at the big league level?SouthernBoSox said:You are always in "evaluation mode" at the big league level.
You don't literally mean that, do you? I mean, the Sox evaluated Bogaerts in September last year. Same with Ellsbury in 2007. When you have a need, you evaluate players in your system in the process of filling that need. I think you meant that you don't just evaluate players for their future value in the middle of a season?HomeRunBaker said:You always evaluate minor league players at the big league level?
You do this in August and September once you're eliminated not 60 games into the season.
They are going to be forced into calling up a minor league starter. Given that the pitchers have been performing at a similar level at AAA, I would rather call up the pitcher who needs to be evaluated the most. And I believe that guy is De La Rosa.HomeRunBaker said:You always evaluate minor league players at the big league level?
You do this in August and September once you're eliminated not 60 games into the season.
Rob Bradford @bradfo 1m
Farrell said Sox undecided about Buchholz next start. Said monitoring hyperextended left leg (knee) dealt with yest
Corsi said:
My interpretation of the posters comment was that he wanted it to be Rubby because he wants to know right now if he's capable because time is running out for him......not because he feels Rubby is the best option.chrisfont9 said:You don't literally mean that, do you? I mean, the Sox evaluated Bogaerts in September last year. Same with Ellsbury in 2007. When you have a need, you evaluate players in your system in the process of filling that need. I think you meant that you don't just evaluate players for their future value in the middle of a season?
People keep suggesting this and I don't get it. Why move a guy when he's having success and you're unable to predict how well he's going to handle the change? He might turn into a pumpkin when he has to face the order 3 times through and then you've blown an asset. I'd give at least one turn through the rotation to one of the AAA starters before I'd think about moving Cap into the rotation.Plympton91 said:So to replace Buchholz in the rotation I'd stretch out Capuano and keep Wilson around for mop up duty.
That's actually literally what he said. Read his other post.HomeRunBaker said:That isn't how you approach evaluating players 60 games into the year which was my point. Rubby can get his tryout in August and Sept if we keep sucking. Now if the poster feels there isn't much of a discernible difference between the ML options, which I agree with, then I'd certainly consider Rubby. I don't think that's what he meant though.
glennhoffmania said:
I think this needs to be expanded upon.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
It was reportedly hot and humid yesterday, which could lead to some water weight loss. But yeah, seven pounds is quite a bit in one afternoon.
You can lose a lot of weight by walking a lotdbn said:
That's a lot of weight to lose in one day.
You're not factoring in warming up. I can totally see a player losing that amount of weight playing on a day like yesterday. When we played a regional at Myrtle Beach, a couple of our players went through multiple pairs of pants because they sweat through them. An afternoon game in the Deep South is very taxing on the body.glennhoffmania said:
Not to mention he only played in 33% of the game.
ah ok. I personally think that's complicated. If a guy has ML stuff but you need to find out whether it will translate, and for some reason it's much better to determine that now vs later (Rule 5, maybe getting burned out at AAA, etc), then there could be some urgency. From what I gathered, the discussion was that perhaps Rubby was the best suited to it, given his pretty extensive seasoning combined with stuff and success in AAA. That's been my opinion, not that I know these players.HomeRunBaker said:My interpretation of the posters comment was that he wanted it to be Rubby because he wants to know right now if he's capable because time is running out for him......not because he feels Rubby is the best option.
If I interpreted that wrong than my post does not apply but that first paragraph appeared clear to me that he wanted Rubby to get essentially a try out due to his age, etc.
That isn't how you approach evaluating players 60 games into the year which was my point. Rubby can get his tryout in August and Sept if we keep sucking. Now if the poster feels there isn't much of a discernible difference between the ML options, which I agree with, then I'd certainly consider Rubby. I don't think that's what he meant though.
And that's what I like about the South...dbn said:
That's a lot of weight to lose in one day.
It actually could be a valid excuse with the pitcher not yet being acclimated to pitching not only in high-80s temperatures but in near 100% humidity which can affect a pitchers grip on the ball. Has Buchholz' control troubles been a coincidence or a direct result of no longer using his hair gel since the Pineda incident?RedOctober3829 said:You're not factoring in warming up. I can totally see a player losing that amount of weight playing on a day like yesterday. When we played a regional at Myrtle Beach, a couple of our players went through multiple pairs of pants because they sweat through them. An afternoon game in the Deep South is very taxing on the body.
Is this a viable excuse for pitching that bad? Not a chance.
http://nesn.com/2014/05/john-farrell-clay-buchholz-shed-seven-pounds-in-heat-uncertain-for-next-start/?utm_source=NESN+Inside+Pitch&utm_campaign=8f7cf6de83-RSS_NESN_TONIGHT&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_610d240f75-8f7cf6de83-100099306glennhoffmania said:
I think this needs to be expanded upon.
Of course we need to see and evaluate the AAA starters. K and BB rates are merely passable substitutes for observation. As for whether there is an out pitch for the AAA candidates, Ranaudo sounds like the worst of the bunch, since he doesn't have Barnes' reliable fastball or the wipeout offspeed pitches of Owens, Webster or de la Rosa. We have seen the last two already, and there's no question that their changeups are outstanding. Some stuff makes the leap to the majors; other stuff does not, and we need to test out each one of them.Plympton91 said:I just don't think we need to "evaluate" the AAA starters. None of them have the kind of wipeout stuff that would be required to pitch effectively with those walk rates, and the high walk rates are a proxy for lack of command in the zone that will result in them getting clobbered.
To me the only two pitchers who have a future as major league starters, maybe, are Owens and Barnes. Neither of them is ready, obviously.
So to replace Buchholz in the rotation I'd stretch out Capuano and keep Wilson around for mop up duty.
mauidano said:
First off, holy shit, his name is RANAUDO. There's a dozen people in here that have been saying Renaudo for weeks.benhogan said:I kind of like the idea of rotating Webster, RDR, and Renaudo as Clay's replacement to extend our 25 man roster. It feels like the pen the has been getting used extensively. So my suggestion would be to give a start to Webster, then send him back down to Pawtucket after his start and bring up a bullpen arm like Britton, Wilson, or Hill for low leverage multiple innings. When the turn comes up again bring up Rubby, send bullpen arm down, Rubby takes the start then gets shipped down after his start with another pen arm appearing.
Then Renaudo. rinse, repeat...
This should be able to keep the pen fresher, and keep Capuano available in high leverage situations.
If Webster, RDR, or Renaudo pitch effectively in their start (i.e. 6+ innings, 2 runs or less) then he can stick around for another start.
Lets see which pitcher has the stones to stick around.
Yeah it was Bard who was DL'ed for the psychological stuff. I really wonder what would have happened if he was never put in the rotation. Middle relievers aren't exactly the beacon of consistency but his stuff was so electric even though he showed major signs of wearing down in 2011. Was it mechanical? Did Tito run him into the ground? Was he jerked around too much and mentally couldn't handle the pressure? I don't know but I would gather it's a combination of the there.Hank Scorpio said:Buchholz has looked particularly emaciated this season. I know we joke that he looks like a meth user, but I really wonder if there's some sort of actual health issue with him, or possibly a personal issue causing him mental/psychological duress. He had that gastrointestinal issue a couple of years back too.
His strength seems to be okay - but he looks like he hasn't had a decent piece of meat in six months, and like he sleeps three hours a night. On a bus.
I seem to recall a player being DL'd specifically for "psychological issues" a few years back (was it Bard, or some other case?)... whatever the problem is - be it mental, nutritional, mechanical or physical - I can't see this problem being suddenly fixed in a span of one to two starts. He probably needs to be shut down for an amount of time before he even takes a mound again.
That said, maybe we can trade for Josh Beckett. That'll help Clay fatten up.
Just keep Josh away from Lackey.
uncannymanny said:First off, holy shit, his name is RANAUDO. There's a dozen people in here that have been saying Renaudo for weeks.
Second, this sounds like a PS3 fantasy. The team is not going to constantly ship these guys up and down messing with their heads, or burn 3 or 4 player options for one, likely temporary, rotation spot (it's possible they don't fulfill the service requirements and retain a 4th, but the peripherals of most of the AAA guys don't even make this a worthwhile approach to begin with).
Just get Clay on the DL and bring Rubby up yesterday.
Bard was diagnosed with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome this winter dating back to when he started losing it at the end of 2011. His struggles had nothing to do with starting.Tyrone Biggums said:Yeah it was Bard who was DL'ed for the psychological stuff. I really wonder what would have happened if he was never put in the rotation. Middle relievers aren't exactly the beacon of consistency but his stuff was so electric even though he showed major signs of wearing down in 2011. Was it mechanical? Did Tito run him into the ground? Was he jerked around too much and mentally couldn't handle the pressure? I don't know but I would gather it's a combination of the there.
You would almost have to go with RDLR or Webster at this point. I think both guys could provide a nice spark for the team to be honest. I would give the slight edge to Webster since he has improved his control and in my opinion has the highest ceiling out of any of the pitchers on the farm. That and as I mentioned before he seems to excel when repeating a level.
Funny that 24 months ago we would be debating the merits of bringing up Brandon Duckworth and now a get to talk about 3-4 blue chip youngsters. Amazing how wrong I was on the Punto trade.
It was also claimed the abdominal strain in 2013 and lower back problem in 2012 were the problems. And that Craig Hansen needed surgery to correct sleep apnea to fix his problems.Plympton91 said:Bard was diagnosed with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome this winter dating back to when he started losing it at the end of 2011. His struggles had nothing to do with starting.
If anything it's Rubby that's improve his control. He's down from 5BB/9 in 2013 to a shade under 4 per 9. Webster's always been near 4 per 9. In fact, his walk rate is slightly worse than his 2013 mark.Tyrone Biggums said:You would almost have to go with RDLR or Webster at this point. I think both guys could provide a nice spark for the team to be honest. I would give the slight edge to Webster since he has improved his control and in my opinion has the highest ceiling out of any of the pitchers on the farm. That and as I mentioned before he seems to excel when repeating a level.
You write that as if there were some guarantee that their fastball command is going to improve. That seems a rather heroic assumption, especially for pitchers who really aren't that young. Both Ranaudo and DLR are well outside their TJ recovery windows. Webster, if I recall started pitching late, and so may still have hope. Barnes is still adjusting to AAA. Though most future aces don't need such adjustments after basically conservative promotion timetables these guys have all had.Sprowl said:Of course we need to see and evaluate the AAA starters. K and BB rates are merely passable substitutes for observation. As for whether there is an out pitch for the AAA candidates, Ranaudo sounds like the worst of the bunch, since he doesn't have Barnes' reliable fastball or the wipeout offspeed pitches of Owens, Webster or de la Rosa. We have seen the last two already, and there's no question that their changeups are outstanding. Some stuff makes the leap to the majors; other stuff does not, and we need to test out each one of them.
And yes, their lack of fastball command (except perhaps for Barnes) will cost them and us some heartburn this year. Less next year, and less the year after that.