Who would YOU hire as HC if you were Kraft
- Thread starter Cellar-Door
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I was about to post something similar. As exciting as it would be to get Johnson in New England, I think it would be a very difficult job for him to change the culture of the locker room, reinvent the offense, develop young players, and all the other things he'd need to do as a head coach. He would need to assemble a stellar staff around him, but that might be tough for a first-time head coach going into an organization at rock bottom. I love the idea of Vrabel putting together a great coaching team from his contacts as a player and coach, especially if they get someone like Josh McD to run the offense, and spending his time creating a culture of toughness and winning that has been absent this year.
So a question I have for the "can't haven't a guy learning on the job" voters... Why? Do you think this is a potential playoff team? Wouldn't an empty roster full rebuild be exactly when you can afford to let a talented coach learn on the job? Or is it a philosophical opposition to any first time coach ever?
This question might help clarify why people voted the way they did
I'm penciling the Pats in for median probable wins next year of something like 4-6, whether the HC is Vrabel, Johnson, or the sweet lord Jesus himself
This last season was a lost year. We're back to time zero of the rebuild. This next year is year 1, in which the team stinks while hopefully adding talent through the draft and starting to form their identity.
So, kinda like Brad Stevens' first year coaching the Celtics back in 2013-14, it's as good a time as there will be for a new professional HC to get their feet wet
It's not a fundamental opposition to first time coaches. Its an opposition to a first time coach with this team right now. Mayo was a first time coach and never established a culture. he was over his head. I feel like you can survive that for one season but another risks taking this franchise to ny jets level of long term dysfunction. I feel like the team needs someone who will step in and on day one lay down the law and get this team refocused. A coach who on day one know how to handle media, handle rosters, handle in game decisions.
I voted Ben Johnson. The angst about an OC bringing in a system in and then leaving gets mitigated because as long as Ben is here, it's his offense that someone is running. I think bringing fresh ideas, a younger coach that players can relate to, and his obvious credentials as an offensive mind would be in the best long-term interest of Drake Maye. Bring in an experienced DC to run the defense. We've discussed Lou Anuramo in other threads, but you could do much worse than bringing him in at least for the first couple of years. Darren Rizzi would be available if he doesn't get the Saints or other HC jobs and he was the ST coordinator for Miami when Johnson was there. Tanner Engstrom, current passing game coordinator in Detroit, would make sense as the OC since he's worked with Johnson and the OC title would be a promotion from his current role. Hank Fraley is interviewing for the Seattle OC position, would he be of interest to follow Johnson to NE? Johnson also worked under Joe Philbin in Miami. He would be available to coach the OL and be a sounding board to Ben as a former HC with a shit ton of experience in the league. Jack Bicknell Jr. overlapped with Johnson in Miami. He could stay on and coach TE's as that position was the one that was consistently good. As far as the front office, he could bring either Ray Agnew or John Dorsey over as the head of personnel.
I love Mike Vrabel and what he brought to the table as a player here in New England. I get the idea of bringing in somebody who is a bit edgier and more of a disciplinarian. But, I think for the long-term future of this franchise Ben Johnson would have the highest ceiling of any of the candidates. The word culture is a big topic around here right now. You know what builds a culture more than anything? Winning football. Ben Johnson, with an experienced staff around him, in my opinion would give this franchise the best chance at doing that.
I love Mike Vrabel and what he brought to the table as a player here in New England. I get the idea of bringing in somebody who is a bit edgier and more of a disciplinarian. But, I think for the long-term future of this franchise Ben Johnson would have the highest ceiling of any of the candidates. The word culture is a big topic around here right now. You know what builds a culture more than anything? Winning football. Ben Johnson, with an experienced staff around him, in my opinion would give this franchise the best chance at doing that.
Impossible for me to say unless I could talk to these guys. Otherwise I'm making a choice based largely superficial observations and media narratives.
Not fun, I know.
Not fun, I know.
Introverted sounds somewhat like Bill Walsh. I’ll take another one of him all day and twice on Sunday. If Ben Johnson goes somewhere else and kills it, we’ll feel terrible if we had a chance to get him with a really good offer. Vrabel would be a big improvement over Mayo I’m sure, but Johnson might be sensational.
Here's the thing: The question was posed as to what we would do if we were Kraft.
If I'm 84 at the start of next season, my resume has been tarnished a bit the past few years, and I don't want to end my ownership on a downslide, I'm more likely to "rebuild" with someone who I know can elevate the program in the short term rather than risk it with another first-time head coach.
But that's just me ... if, as the question asked, I were Kraft.
If I'm me, I'd grab Johnson
If I'm 84 at the start of next season, my resume has been tarnished a bit the past few years, and I don't want to end my ownership on a downslide, I'm more likely to "rebuild" with someone who I know can elevate the program in the short term rather than risk it with another first-time head coach.
But that's just me ... if, as the question asked, I were Kraft.
If I'm me, I'd grab Johnson
He’s a pretty good coach with some decent offensive/playcalling ability
wouldn’t be on my short list but it’s not crazy. He definitely deserves a 2nd chance in the NFL as HC with a non-Trubisky QB
Isn’t the obvious answer that the team is going to need the next HC to develop the young talent already here and whatever Wolf comes up with in the draft?
the fact that it is an empty roster which needs a lot of coaching and player development is exactly why I’d be very wary of Johnson unless he’s bringing seasoned vets with him as OC and DC
him learning on the job while also teaching young players seems like a massive ask
not to say he can’t develop young players, but it’s a lot to expect from a guy taking on a huge new responsibility.
Oh, I'm quite aware!What is it exactly you’d say we do here?
In all seriousness, it's just that people dig in with who they want to be head coach, based on all the trivialities I mentioned. Then spend the next several years bitching and moaning because "their" guy didn't get hired. It's all so predictable and lame.
I think the difference between all of the non Bills / Chiefs / Ravens teams in the AFC is minimal at best. Is this a potential playoff team? In a year the Texans Chargers Broncos and Steelers occupied 4 slots? Yes. The AFC is the weakest it's been since the early 90s.
If Drake Maye takes the next step, they have even just an average defense, and an okay line, they will compete for a playoff spot.
I voted Vrabel for 2 reasons:
1. He is an experienced head coach
2. He is not afraid of anyone. Reference the Pats vs Titans playoff game a few years back when he threw BB’s knowledge of the rules in his face by declining the false start (or was it delay of game?) penalty that kept the Pats from getting the ball back late in the game
1. He is an experienced head coach
2. He is not afraid of anyone. Reference the Pats vs Titans playoff game a few years back when he threw BB’s knowledge of the rules in his face by declining the false start (or was it delay of game?) penalty that kept the Pats from getting the ball back late in the game
I lean Johnson but would like to know Vrabel's plan for the offence and who he plans to hire. That info could change my vote.
Yeah, right there and bonus points for getting pre-angry: another SOSH skill I’ve harnessed and refined personally!
Good news is whoever works out next, they will have had a lot of people that were there for them all the time and can’t believe it took that long : )
I went with re-open search. If you are already predisposed to bring someone in, you lose nothing by doing this (unless there is a risk of losing that preferred candidate to some other team). My reasoning is that you really don't see this kind of scenario very often - where a favored coach is brought in but who fails the year after BB departs - and you are confronted with the opportunity to really adopt a completely fresh approach.
Again, no harm no foul by giving a wider array of candidates a chance to propose their approach.
Again, no harm no foul by giving a wider array of candidates a chance to propose their approach.
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Johnson, and I can’t wait to hear what the offense that he unleashes on the NFL, first revolutionary one since Walsh’s west coast offense, is called.
If I were part of the Kraft hive mind, I would look to hire Vrabel and I would want Vrabel to hire a Brian Griese type for OC.
Then hire Josh McCown who has a history with Drake Maye. Comes from a similar system too.
Should be something Carolina related given he and Maye are both UNC alums? High Country Offense?
Exactly why I voted Vrabel. But as many people have said already, perhaps the better long-term solution is Johnson who brings his own system, and then is allowed to grow and develop it at the same time as developing Drake Maye, and builds a program and staff over time.
Vrabel. The defense is just as messed up as the offense. First time coaches are a big gamble.
Foxboro in general is a mess. This would be step one in stabilizing the organization.
Step two is showing Wolf the door. Someone has to pay for the Polk over Ladd pick and that offensive line.
Foxboro in general is a mess. This would be step one in stabilizing the organization.
Step two is showing Wolf the door. Someone has to pay for the Polk over Ladd pick and that offensive line.
I really don't understand why they aren't interviewing Flores. Very accomplished, and I think 2nd time as HC is a great opportunity (see Bill Belichick).
Because he has issues developing a young QB in Tua and maybe you don’t want someone from the BB tree either.
Also Fitzmagic didn’t exactly have the best things to say, especially about the end of his tenure or coaching staff he’d be able to bring:
https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2025/01/he-became-a-dictator-ex-qb-warns-nfl-teams-about-former-patriots-coach.html
https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2025/01/he-became-a-dictator-ex-qb-warns-nfl-teams-about-former-patriots-coach.html
That seems like a weird reason not to interview someone has arguably the best resume of the group. He got the most out the least and he would help the NFL’s mission to improve diversity in the head coaching ranks. Tua is a mediocre QB. Tua might not think so, but his performance is mediocre. I could care less about Ryan Whoever. Also, I wonder if a hotshot OC candidate would value the opportunity to have control over that side of the football under a defensive coach and with a promising young QB. I would be much more concerned about former players’ opinions about Flores if they came come players after Flores’ head coaching time in Miami. People learn stuff.
As an aside, the schedule (on paper) is ridiculously favorable, especially at home. Competence alone will get them to 7+ wins IMO. They could have a real shot to win 10-11 games but be a total pretender (like the Steelers this year).
Home:
Falcons
Bills
Panthers
Browns
Dolphins
Giants
Jets
Raiders
Steelers
There is one great team on that list, two mediocre teams (Falcons & Steelers), and six trash teams. They won't go 8-1 at home because they suck as currently constituted, but there is a path to 6+ home wins there.
Road:
Ravens
Bills
Bengals
Dolphins
Saints
Jets
Bucs
Titans
Two great teams, two mediocre teams, four trash teams. Three or four road wins wouldn't be crazy.
I get that it's stupid to do this today given that they don't have a coach and the offseason hasn't begun. But if they only win four or even six games against that schedule given what we know today... yikes.
Well put, no Flores needs explanation and I hope one of the scribes gets it. Side note omg is Giardi up Vrabels ass? He should do some actual good and do colon check while he’s in there.
I kind of wonder if Flores is in the same camp with Aaron Glenn. He’s connected enough to this regime to read the Vrabel tea leaves and not participate.
Just like everyone who gets fired, Flores has to account for what happened and offer a version of events that indicates he has learned and evolved. These are some serious performance and management issues for an HC, particularly if you are drafting or developing a new QB. They don't have to be fatal, but it's something to consider.
I thought Fitzpatrick's comments were much more balanced than the headline suggests. Media sucks.
Either one (Vrabel/Johnson) I can get excited about, each for different reasons. I think both of them will be light years better than Mayo (I'm bummed about that; I really wanted Mayo to be good...UGH). And I think either of them will instantly make this entire organization significantly better.
That's fair. And I'll admit I didn't bother to look at the schedule before throwing that 4-6 thing out there.
Footnote this that those other teams also haven't had their offseasons yet, either. It may no longer be such an easy schedule by October
Same here. A question: What source actually said that Josh McDaniels would come in as Offensive Coordinator? Is is just speculation?
The Athletic pod was talking about this too. Mays favors going for the offensive mind who is also a great leader of men. I might be misremembering but I believe he preferred Ben Johnson to Vrabel. Sando strongly believed to go with Vrabel as a floor raiser and a guy who can raise the ceiling too. His words not mine. Vrabel you know you get a good culture. Mays counter argument is that there is a cap on how far those teams can go vs the offensive minded head coach like: Andy Reid, Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, Matt LaFleur, Kevin O’Connell, etc.
While it wasn’t expressly said, I think Mays would frame it like, “While there are different types of coaches in the NFL the highest ceiling and top 5-6 coaches are offensive minds and not CEO types.”
Mays is overselling the argument and the degree to which way you can be an elite coach. I prefer an offensive minded coach all else being equal but with Vrabel and Johnson it’s not. I prefer Johnson over Vrabel in a vacuum for this team. I’m leaning Vrabel though because I don’t think they have the infrastructure for any rookie head coach to thrive right now. I don’t believe it can happen in a year - probably a 2-3 year process. They need Vrabel to give them some stability while they go through a lot of growing pains.
While it wasn’t expressly said, I think Mays would frame it like, “While there are different types of coaches in the NFL the highest ceiling and top 5-6 coaches are offensive minds and not CEO types.”
Mays is overselling the argument and the degree to which way you can be an elite coach. I prefer an offensive minded coach all else being equal but with Vrabel and Johnson it’s not. I prefer Johnson over Vrabel in a vacuum for this team. I’m leaning Vrabel though because I don’t think they have the infrastructure for any rookie head coach to thrive right now. I don’t believe it can happen in a year - probably a 2-3 year process. They need Vrabel to give them some stability while they go through a lot of growing pains.
Also, Sean McDermott has weathered OC changes fine in Buffalo. And the Harbaughs are the definition of CEO coaches…same thing.
I would say the idea that the “5-6 best coaches are offensive minds and not CEO’s” is ridiculous and obviously not just overselling.
Andy Reid, sure. McVay, yes. Payton, arguably (?) top 5. But I’d put both Harbaughs in the top 5-6 and neither of them are brilliant offensive minds. I think some people would argue Tomlin belongs up there. Campbell isn’t an offensive genius (if he’s a top 5 coach)
O’Connell, LaFleur and Shanahan have done nice things but I don’t know that any of them have proven enough to be considered top 5-6 HC.
Winning consistently and winning with mediocre talent is an important factor in being considered a top HC and many of the offensive genius types have yet to prove they can.
I think McDermott/Allen is kind of the benchmark you hope for with Vrabel/Maye. A QB that can develop and thrive even with a bunch of mediocre (or subpar) offensive coordinators and a boring defensive head coach.
ATL is up/down swing game
Buff L
Car better than people think swing
Cle W
Miami lean L
NYG W
NYG Swing
LV Swing
Pitt L
2 W 2 L 5 swing
Road
Balt L
BUFF L
CINY L
MIA L
NO Swing
NYJ Swing
TB L
TENN Swing
0w 5 L 3 swing
tolat
2 W 7 L 8 Swing my guiss 6-11
I’m not sure this is fair to Vrabel tbh. He had a Hall of Fame-level RB, but never a top tier QB. I don’t think Vrabel was ever in position to demonstrate his ceiling.
That notwithstanding, I also love Ben Johnson.
I think it’s 2 good choices, but the process makes Vrabel potentially the safer choice, and by that I do not mean higher floor, but Johnson might prefer to extend his search out and the Pats will be forced into taking Vrabel so they don’t miss out on both.
This is a tremendous point that I hadn't really contemplated. It does make a lot of sense that Vrabel is better positioned to be THE voice in the organization while the rot gets fixed.
Agreed. As a Johnson over Vrabel guy the @SMU_Sox point is pulling be back (though it’s also why I’m Flores first).
If the Pats are truly the organizational wasteland it’s being purported, Vrabel will know this from his relationships. He will have both a plan AND the will to drive it through.