Which type of plate discipline is eating Panda?

iayork

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Y'all do realize that Sandoval is OPSing .865 this spring, right? Shaw is higher at 1.188, but if you do believe that Spring Training stats are meaningful, why would you want Sandoval to sit? You should be lobbying for Shaw to replace Mookie, who is merely at .861.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Y'all do realize that Sandoval is OPSing .865 this spring, right? Shaw is higher at 1.188, but if you do believe that Spring Training stats are meaningful, why would you want Sandoval to sit? You should be lobbying for Shaw to replace Mookie, who is merely at .861.
But...but...fat...lazy...fat...

Sandoval's only problem right now is that he is coming off a rough year in which he left a bad taste in people's mouths. He's not doing anything in spring training to warrant the hue and cry to take away his job. Sure, Shaw is making a lot of noise with his bat, but for now, that's all it is.
 

RIrooter09

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Neither did Laroche's .. It rather depends on how desperate Chicago is to fill the perceived void. I think it's pretty unlikely but ya never know
They're not going to pay $19 million per year to replace a below replacement level player who they just got off the books with another.
 

DanoooME

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Neither did Laroche's .. It rather depends on how desperate Chicago is to fill the perceived void. I think it's pretty unlikely but ya never know
They're going to fill it (from what I read) by getting Melky Cabrera out of the OF where his defense is within an area code of Hanley's.
 

PrometheusWakefield

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But...but...fat...lazy...fat...

Sandoval's only problem right now is that he is coming off a rough year in which he left a bad taste in people's mouths. He's not doing anything in spring training to warrant the hue and cry to take away his job. Sure, Shaw is making a lot of noise with his bat, but for now, that's all it is.
The offensive questions with Sandoval are a sideshow. You look at his peripherals in 2015 and it's pretty clear that he'll bounce back to adequate with the bat.

The question is whether the man is still a major league third baseman, which he absolutely was not in 2015, and between the three errors and the qualitative reports out there I'm not sure he is in 2016 either.

Adequate with the bat + horrible defensively = not a major league starter on a team who intends to contend.
 

JimD

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Moving Pablo Sandoval to another team is going to require a significant investment by the Red Sox, either in a salary subsidy to the acquiring club or in prospects to sweeten the deal (or both). That is not a move to be made lightly. I'd like to know with a little more certainty that Travis Shaw is a true replacement at third base and not Middlebrooks 2.0 before Dave Dombrowski considers expending that level of resources. Starting the season with Pablo as the third baseman with Shaw getting 3-5 games per week spelling him, Hanley and LF and otherwise coming off the bench as a pinch hitter/defensive replacement is a very reasonable course of action that should give both Shaw and Sandoval every opportunity to prove what they can do in 2016.
 

soxhop411

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FORT MYERS, Fla. — Red Sox third baseman Pablo Sandoval is expected to miss at least a few days with lower-back pain, the result of diving for a ball during Tuesday’s game against the Miami Marlins.

“He’s going to be down for a couple of days,” manager John Farrell said. “Just trying to get back. He’s going to be available on a day-to-day status right now.”

Farrell does not believe the injury will land Sandoval on the disabled list.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2016/03/24/red-sox-pablo-sandoval-sit-out-few-days/LwTh5OxgOI4RFZxBQr8fBN/story.html
 

Rovin Romine

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Moving Pablo Sandoval to another team is going to require a significant investment by the Red Sox, either in a salary subsidy to the acquiring club or in prospects to sweeten the deal (or both). That is not a move to be made lightly. I'd like to know with a little more certainty that Travis Shaw is a true replacement at third base and not Middlebrooks 2.0 before Dave Dombrowski considers expending that level of resources. Starting the season with Pablo as the third baseman with Shaw getting 3-5 games per week spelling him, Hanley and LF and otherwise coming off the bench as a pinch hitter/defensive replacement is a very reasonable course of action that should give both Shaw and Sandoval every opportunity to prove what they can do in 2016.
Well, I'd agree with all of this with the caveat that you don't want to bobble Shaw around too much to the point it might affect him at the plate. Shaw has played all positions, but his most experienced position at this point is 1B, putting him back at third and in front of the Wall is something the coaching staff should monitor carefully. It's great if he's comfortable with it, but some players do better with a fixed routine.
 

phenweigh

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YTF

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"Red Sox manager John Farrell clarified before Monday’s game that the team has delayed putting Shaw out in left field this spring in order to get more reps at what might be his primary position, third."

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/03/21/competition-between-travis-shaw-pablo-sandoval-continues-to-heat-up/

It seems the left field experiment for Shaw will get delayed until Pablo takes at-bats from him.
So if/when the time comes, the regular season would be a better time for this "experiment"?
 

phenweigh

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So if/when the time comes, the regular season would be a better time for this "experiment"?
If the time comes, it's because Shaw isn't playing as well as Pablo. At that point, the Sox can send Shaw to Pawtucket for the expanded versatility experiment.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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This is just the beginning. Soon there will be a pretextual DL stint and then an oddly prolonged minor league rehab, while DD works the phones.
Yes, because Sandoval isn't a hot enough commodity to reel in potential trade partners, they want to perpetuate the notion that he's damaged goods to boost his value more. :rolleyes:
 

YTF

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If the time comes, it's because Shaw isn't playing as well as Pablo. At that point, the Sox can send Shaw to Pawtucket for the expanded versatility experiment.
Not necessarily, it might be because he's needed as a short (hopefully very short) term fix in which case I would prefer a few reps out there before the need arises. I guess you could just throw him out there a la Youkilis, but again IF this is something being considered lets get him at least a few games out there.
 

HomeRunBaker

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But...but...fat...lazy...fat...

Sandoval's only problem right now is that he is coming off a rough year in which he left a bad taste in people's mouths. He's not doing anything in spring training to warrant the hue and cry to take away his job. Sure, Shaw is making a lot of noise with his bat, but for now, that's all it is.
He hasn't shown he can bend over to field a ground ball at an acceptable level. Isn't that part of the job description as well?

Yes, because Sandoval isn't a hot enough commodity to reel in potential trade partners, they want to perpetuate the notion that he's damaged goods to boost his value more. :rolleyes:
You have to give the other GM's a little bit of credit for recognizing what is going on here, no? The fireworks will come when Pablo comes out publicly and says he's either not injured or ready to play and expects to be in the lineup. At least our corner infielders are taking the pressure off everyone else so they can just play without the scrutiny being on them.
 

Monbo Jumbo

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To the extent that Hanley is effective at 1B, would that not increase the amount of $$ they might eat of Pablo's contract? They no longer would be looking at two bust signings. Seems that should make jettisoning Pablo easier for the front office to swallow.
 

HomeRunBaker

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To the extent that Hanley is effective at 1B, would that not increase the amount of $$ they might eat of Pablo's contract? They no longer would be looking at two bust signings. Seems that should make jettisoning Pablo easier for the front office to swallow.
I'm sure the owners/front office would sleep a little better at night should Hanley show to be effective at 1B but I believe the larger (pun intended picture is what really matters to them. The cost of Pablo/Shaw is roughly $20m per and I don't feel it matters where the production comes from at this point whether it's the $19m+ guy or the <$1m guy. It would be MUCH different if we had to go out and spend significant dollars on a Pablo replacement while still eating (pun intended again) the rest of his contract.
 

Skrub Silly

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The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Sandoval has undiagnosed adult ADHD. With the weight issues, he is seeking a dopamine hit and has impulse control issues. Here is an article linking ADHD to obesity. The poor impulse control could also explain his need to chase bad pitches. Here is an article on poor decision making and ADHD. He said in the Herald that when batting from the right side this spring: “I’m more calmed down at home plate. I’m not jumping around. I’m letting the ball come to me and getting a good pitch to hit.” This implies that he wasn't calm at the plate last year. ADHD'ers are often characterized as having racing thoughts, from the wikipedia article on racing thoughts:
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
Racing thoughts associated with ADHD is most common in adults. Because with ADHD, people tend to get bored easily, racing thoughts can occur and tend to cause insomnia.[14] Racing thoughts in people with ADHD tend to be rapid, unstable thoughts which do not follow any sort of pattern, similar to racing thoughts in people with bipolar disorder. Medications used to treat ADHD, such as Adderall or Ritalin can be prescribed to patients to calm these and other symptoms caused by ADHD.[15]

and we all remember the benching for using instagram in the clubhouse during a game. Here is an article on internet addiction co-morbid with ADHD. "But Skrub," you say, "Pablo can focus during the playoffs. He has a 1014 OPS over 10 series." To which I have to say, yup, that's what ADHD calls hyperfocus:
from Helpguide.org-
Hyperfocus is actually a coping mechanism for distraction—a way of tuning out the chaos. It can be so strong that you become oblivious to everything going on around you. For example, you may be so engrossed in a book, a TV show, or your computer that you completely lose track of time and neglect the things you’re supposed to be doing. Hyperfocus can be an asset when channeled into productive activities, but it can also lead to work and relationship problems if left unchecked.

This sounds very similar to being in "the zone." I could be completely off-base, but how much would it hurt to get him tested and on some adderall. It worked for Crash Davis.
 
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Al Zarilla

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Well, I'd agree with all of this with the caveat that you don't want to bobble Shaw....
I hope Shaw hits and fields so well that we see a Shaw Bobblehead night in the next year or two. If happenstance is that most of his work is at third base because he's not needed at first base where a rejuvenated HanRam is getting most of the work, then so be it. I really used to pull for Sandoval as much as I did for Posey, Pence and Crawford, but too many times now he's shown up fatter than what he can get away with fat self. Left field? F that noise though.
 

phenweigh

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Not necessarily, it might be because he's needed as a short (hopefully very short) term fix in which case I would prefer a few reps out there before the need arises. I guess you could just throw him out there a la Youkilis, but again IF this is something being considered lets get him at least a few games out there.
Considering he'd be the sixth outfielder, if he was really needed to play LF, his lack of practice time out there would probably be the least of the Sox problems.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Well, I suppose we can just call him fat and lazy and throw the contract away in defeat, after all that's easier than positing a possible approach to addressing the problem.
Anecdotal quotes =/= symptoms

The "symptoms" you think you've identified all have the diagnostic specificity of a low-grade fever.

Exploring possible medical/psychiatric reasons for the fall-off in his performance has probably been considered already by the Sox's medical staff.
 

YTF

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Considering he'd be the sixth outfielder, if he was really needed to play LF, his lack of practice time out there would probably be the least of the Sox problems.
I agree 100%. I'm guessing they're working him out in left field in non game situations, but with Jet Blue's configuration being similar to Fenway plus the fact that you have split squad games, I'd try to take advantage of those opportunities to get him out there at least a few more times before the season starts.
 

PrometheusWakefield

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Yes, because Sandoval isn't a hot enough commodity to reel in potential trade partners, they want to perpetuate the notion that he's damaged goods to boost his value more. :rolleyes:
But the advantage to us is that it gives us time to see if Shaw really can be the answer at third before making the decision to cut and run from Panda.

I was talking to a friend the other day who had this problem, where she had this previous job in Colombia that had paid her in Colombian pesos and which she had then put in a Colombian bank. And as this has not been a great time for the Colombian peso, she's now looking at a big loss in how much she gets out of this account relative to her expectations when she converts it back to USD. So she's been delaying and delaying taking out the money, waiting for the peso to rebound, but instead it just gets worse.

And it's like: No. What you have right now is what you have. Converting the currency to dollars will clarify how much you have lost. But it doesn't change the reality of the loss. Every day you don't convert that money into USD you are, in effect, betting on the Colombian peso. And that does not seem like a smart bet.

What we have in Pablo Sandoval right now is a player who maybe could play first base or DH and provide slightly above average offense against RHP, but is unplayable against LHP and (imo) is unplayable at third base. In today's market values that player is worth maybe $4 million per season. Probably less, when you consider that he probably doesn't deserve a roster spot on this team, but lets call it $4.

We're paying him $18m. That sucks. But that $14m is, as of today, gone. And every day we don't cut our losses with Panda is a day that we are betting on him to rebound. And that does not seem like a good bet to me. Not given the fact that Panda is a fat jerk, not given that Travis Shaw is a more interesting player who is superior, imo, in both floor and ceiling, and not when Holt and Moncada and Devers are all around as short, medium and long term options, respectively.

I don't know why we ever signed him, but I know why SFG let him walk. Cut our losses DD.
 

I Miss Maalox

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Anecdotal quotes =/= symptoms

The "symptoms" you think you've identified all have the diagnostic specificity of a low-grade fever.

Exploring possible medical/psychiatric reasons for the fall-off in his performance has probably been considered already by the Sox's medical staff.
Ok, so I'm a just read/never post kind of SOSHer. But on special occasions...
I'm sure a lot has been attempted, by both the Giants and Red Sox, to try and get Panda to lose weight and perform up to his huge (pun intended) potential. And you COULD be right that the (crack) Red Sox medical staff has explored the possibility of adult ADD. I have no such faith either in the RS medical staff or in the front office's inclination to delve into complex mental/psychiatric explanations and equally complex possible solutions. "Just give him Adderall" COULD work, but without therapy and Panda's willingness to work on himself, probably not.

I for one really appreciate Skrub's theory, and the links he provides. I'm surprised no one has jumped in with the dismissive "Eric Van's diagnosis of Jason Varitek's sleep disorder" comparison. It seems very easy for media and posters here to stop at "He's fat and Lazy and has lost his skills" and like Prometheus, posit that the RS should just cut their losses. Maybe they should, but there could still be very valid reasons why not.
I'm not aware of any research, but it seems likely that the mental toughness necessary for anyone to make it to the majors would make it rare for anyone with more than the mildest ADD to advance that far. It's not uncommon for athletes to use Adderral to try and get an edge, but how common is it that someone actually NEEDS it (or drugs plus treatment)? And not everyone responds well to the same drugs.

Skrub is bringing up a very interesting line of inquiry, and he's clearly done some research to back up his theory. Saying that the symptoms he's identified have the diagnostic specificity of a low grade fever is both dismissive and irrelevant. A fever? What's your point? You can diagnose one with a rectal thermometer (if that's your thing). ADD is not a simple or cut-and-dried diagnosis. Like with autism, the sufferers and the symptoms exist on a spectrum. I appreciate Skrub because I don't have to time to do the research myself. I don't even have the time to write what I just wrote.
I wish EV was still around...
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I don't know why we ever signed him, but I know why SFG let him walk. Cut our losses DD.
The Giants didn't exactly "let him walk". Their offers to him were reported to be in the same ballpark as the Red Sox, possibly even more (though that might have been the SD offer). It was more that Sandoval walked from them because they were demanding weight clauses and he was peeved that they didn't make enough of an effort to sign him before he got to free agency.

We can say the Sox might have gotten themselves into a bad deal by signing Sandoval, but it was much more the Giants inadvertently dodging a bullet (and landing on their feet with Duffy) than they knew better and gleefully let Sandoval go.
 

EvilEmpire

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If they were demanding a weight clause, I don't think the Giants were inadvertently dodging a bullet. More like the Giants were comfortable with what they thought they could get out of a fit Panda and weren't willing to take the risk without the protection offered by such a clause.

No bullet dodging necessary, just a reasonable balance of risk and reward.

Edit: To be clear, I don't think the Red Sox risk/reward was that bad either. The Sox can afford a few bad contracts.
 

In my lifetime

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The pinch hit at bat in the 9th today by Panda was truly awful. 3 fastballs in the strike zone in which he clearly swung under each one. There was no reason for the pitcher ever to throw anything but a fastball and dare Panda to hit it, which at this point is unlikely.
Is he just rusty, terrible or mailing it in?
 

Al Zarilla

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The pinch hit at bat in the 9th today by Panda was truly awful. 3 fastballs in the strike zone in which he clearly swung under each one. There was no reason for the pitcher ever to throw anything but a fastball and dare Panda to hit it, which at this point is unlikely.
Is he just rusty, terrible or mailing it in?
What we were looking for is fat. No, he has hit well at this weight, or what looks like about this weight before with the Giants. He hasn't had enough ABs yet this year yet to determine anything (although he had his worst year hitting last year). What he can't do is play good third base, or even keep from hurting himself when he's at the high end of his weight swings. He's not going to win the DH job, so he is currently useless to the Red Sox. He threw his career away, but baseball is so one sided for the player in contract stuff that he'll be rich anyway.
 

derekson

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He hit will at this weight when he was a few years younger and more athletic though. You can do things while carrying extra weight when you're in your early 20s that aren't possible later.
 

crystalline

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He hit will at this weight when he was a few years younger and more athletic though. You can do things while carrying extra weight when you're in your early 20s that aren't possible later.
Yup. In particular you bounce back from injuries so quickly in your earlier 20s. As you get older you actually need rehab and training to ward off injury.
 

whatittakes

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It's not just injuries. Ordinary wear and tear of the joints increases significantly when you're overweight, speaking from personal experience. As someone who is significantly obese, I'm fine for a few minutes if I have to walk or do physical exercise and then I have to sit down, not because I have terrible stamina (although that's a factor) but because my hips and knees start aching. After a few minutes of serious exercise I'm pushing through a steady rush of pain in all my load-bearing joints.

A bad knee is not an "injury" but severely overweight people in their late 20's frequently have joints that look (and feel) like they're in their late 40's. And it only gets worse the longer you're shipping all that extra cargo your skeleton wasn't designed for.

Now I'm only talking about my own experiences and Pablo Sandoval is (as much as I *cringe* to admit it) in far better shape than I am, but the same principle applies. All that extra strain on his joints has clearly begun to catch up to him, and even if he really starts to get with the program now, it may already be too late to save his big league career as far as third base goes, even if he slims right down all that added strain may have caused enough unholy havoc as it is..
 

Pablito

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I go back to SD and JShields. Durable as they come with more K's than IP while allowing less hits than IP. Three and $63 left. Bucholz? Or a possible combination of Bucholz Sandoval Castillo while Boston takes on the wrong Upton at 2 for $32 who posted a 900 OPS the last month...
Sandoval 4 at 70 fills a need for SD if they are interested. Dollars wise Panda at 18.75 which includes the buyout for 4 years, CBuc deal is Team friendly. SD dumps 95 million over 3 years. Would Boston eat a portion of PS deal?
Or perhaps CBuc and Castillo which would be more of a savings for SD?

Price Shields Porcello ERod #5 - Sox finishing 32 22 final 2 months last year with the latter might get you the division in 16.
Snadoval is done. They will have to cut him. the only way they get Shields for him means that Shields is done too and they eat all the money. It's better that they just cut Panda and maybe that will wake him up and make hime hire a chef and a trainer and take care of himself. He hasn't hit rock bottom yet.
 

Pablito

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The Sox are wasting a roster spot by having Sandoval riding the bench like he is. He is such a disgrace to the uniform. They won't even be able to get a six pack for him. They'll just have to cut him. Having said that, I do like the club as constructed minus Pablo. They have a lot of depth and versatility in Holt and Shaw, Bradley. Wright looks like he might be able to stick around as a good fifth starter, and the pen seems pretty solid for now. I think they are going to need another starter for the playoffs, if they get there, as there is no one to take the ball after Price in a big series.
 

Pablito

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Yeah thanks, I'm all set now.

I posted where he ranked because you claimed this:
You think Rusney, Pablo, Hanley, and Porcello can all be 0-2 WAR players. They got a lot of money riding the pine in Boston. But I guess the young guys under control help defray some of the cost. Cherington really didn't know what he was doing, did he?
 

whatittakes

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Down on the DL with a busted belt buckle more like. I'd put money down that there's nothing significant wrong with his shoulder.
 

whatittakes

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Oh I'm sure he has a legitimate injury of some kind, these guys play through all kinds of crap, I'm guessing there's usually something they can point to for a CYA injury that would usually just mean a little extra ice after the game.
 

Sampo Gida

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Normally when a relatively young player falls off a cliff as abruptly as Pablo did I suspect an injury (or going off PED's) . I was inclined to think it was just his weight and conditioning as most here do, and perhaps that's still the case, but this shoulder injury has me thinking. He said it first bothered him in late 2011 which was his peak season, which coincidentally or not was the beginning of his decline as his numbers were far more modest in subsequent years, slipping year by year. The shoulder bothered him mostly from the right side of the plate in 2011 (he said), and loe and behold he gave up batting right handed at Fenway last year despite playing in a RHH haven which struck many as odd.

So, maybe the shoulder as his main problem is low probability, but its not zero IMO . However, that eating disorder (and it has to be some kind of disorder) to me is a real medical problem, as touched on by an earlier comment. We are rather forgiving of drug addictions (Josh Hamilton) and alcohol addictions (CC Sabathia) but not at all for eating addictions. More evidence of obese discrimination.

I suggested elsewhere that what Pablo needs is a long DL stint and to spend it at API working on his conditioning, and I add to that by saying the Red Sox could perhaps address that eating disorder with some professional help (of course, he has to be on board or it will be just wasting time,) so maybe this is what the shoulder strain will lead to.