What's left this off season?

luckiestman

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Why not give Dwight Howard a go if Bryant goes elsewhere. He still can hit the glass and score in the paint, and would be a big body who could foul Embiid. I’d prefer him over Whiteside and Trez with his three pounds of cannabis felony charge hanging over his head.
Worth it just to hear Russillo’s reaction
 

JM3

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Why not give Dwight Howard a go if Bryant goes elsewhere. He still can hit the glass and score in the paint, and would be a big body who could foul Embiid. I’d prefer him over Whiteside and Trez with his three pounds of cannabis felony charge hanging over his head.
Why would you prefer Howard to Whiteside? Howard is 3 1/2 years older & Whiteside was much better this past year.

Howard's per 36 was 14/13/1.3 on 61% shooting & the Lakers were much better when he was off the court.

Whiteside seems to have much more in the tank & is more capable of playing winning basketball.

Howard has changed teams after each of the last 7 seasons (Whiteside is on 4 in a row).
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don't actually agree with this. Yes TL has some injury issues, yes Horford is old... BUT you have to be assuming that Ime would play the 3rd big a lot instead of just going to more 1 big or semi-big. Given the team's depth at 1-4 (Tatum, Brown, Smart, Brogdon, White, Williams, Gallo) you're now talkign about fighting for 10th man when the team is healthy, and having to convince Ime it's better to have you out there than Gallo or Williams, when 1 big is out. The Celtics are a very deep team. Look at someone like the Lakers. They MIGHT go with AD at C and Bron at PF... if they do the 3rd big is competing with Damian Jones for backup minutes at both positions... where one guys is old and has had injuries recently, and the other is as oft injured at TL. AND AD doesn't really like playing C, so there is a chance that everyone slides down (especially is LeBron is out) and you get to start at C. Last year the "3rd big" role for the Lakers started 46 times... Freedom and Theis combined for 7.

The Celtics' selling point is.. some minutes and a real chance at a ring.
This is a bit off topic, but the Celtics could deploy some interesting small lineups now. Smart, Brogdon, White, Brown, Tatum, anyone? Or a slightly bigger version with Gallo or Grant in. These would obviously not be for eveyr game use, but if a team went small with success against the Celtics the could counter.
 

lovegtm

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This is a bit off topic, but the Celtics could deploy some interesting small lineups now. Smart, Brogdon, White, Brown, Tatum, anyone? Or a slightly bigger version with Gallo or Grant in. These would obviously not be for eveyr game use, but if a team went small with success against the Celtics the could counter.
Yeah, if a team goes small with a non-posting 5, Smart could guard that guy.

I'd expect to see Grant at the 5 in lineups like that a decent amount too, if there were injuries and the other team didn't have someone who could just shoot over him from the C position (that list is Embiid and not many other people).
 

benhogan

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Last I saw Cousins he looked super-washed, he'd put up a big scoring game against opposing benches once every few games but he couldn't move. Whiteside has a lot more left.
Yea the last time I saw DC he went agro with the ref or coach (Malone). He's a little too polarizing. Finding the 3rd string/fungible 5 could take some time (w/Durant/Kyrie drama unfolding) and he'll definitely have warts.

Another place the C's could unearth cheap/end-of-the-bench players is OKC. They have a roster crunch/youngsters needing PT. Three brand new 1st round picks joining their roster (#2, 11, 12).
1. Defensive dawg Kenrich Williams ($2M)
2. Muscala (just signed vet min) can't be traded until early DEC
3. Robinson-Earl
4. Derrick Favors may be bought out
5. maybe Brad kicks the tires on Roby? He started 28 games for OKC last season and played similar minutes as Kenrich & Robinson-Earl
 

PedroKsBambino

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One of the goals with the third big is to 'do no harm' chemistry/role wise, seems to me. So guys who have had issues along those lines---Howard, DC, Whiteside---you really need some current-ish info suggesting they have accepted where htey are career-wise for it to be worth it. There's some evidence Howard evolved to accepting a backup role, and this would be a half-step less than that. I am unsure there's any basis for believing the other two have accepted what they are, but you can talk to them and people around them. Just posting stats doesn't really answer the key question, imo.

I know some want to just say "their team is dumb" but I think Howard and Whiteside being jettisoned on an annual basis is worth considering here....not dispositive, but the upside of better stats is unlikely to be worth the downside of a chemistry challenge given the limited (likely) role.

Wiht that in mind, I'm more interested in younger guys with low expectations or vets who know what they are (Muscala, not an option short-term, fits that description)
 

DJnVa

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Why not give Dwight Howard a go if Bryant goes elsewhere. He still can hit the glass and score in the paint, and would be a big body who could foul Embiid. I’d prefer him over Whiteside and Trez with his three pounds of cannabis felony charge hanging over his head.
If he's ring-chasing that might not be horrible. He hit .533 of this threes last year :) There are some stories out there about his locker room vibe though.

More seriously, he still rebounded at his career average last season (13.2 per 36) and shot pretty well. He played about 16 minutes/game which might be around what we need (he'd play less when everyone is healthy, more when others are getting a break or are banged up.)
 

benhogan

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One of the goals with the third big is to 'do no harm' chemistry/role wise, seems to me. So guys who have had issues along those lines---Howard, DC, Whiteside---you really need some current-ish info suggesting they have accepted where htey are career-wise for it to be worth it. There's some evidence Howard evolved to accepting a backup role, and this would be a half-step less than that. I am unsure there's any basis for believing the other two have accepted what they are, but you can talk to them and people around them. Just posting stats doesn't really answer the key question, imo.

I know some want to just say "their team is dumb" but I think Howard and Whiteside being jettisoned on an annual basis is worth considering here....not dispositive, but the upside of better stats is unlikely to be worth the downside of a chemistry challenge given the limited (likely) role.

Wiht that in mind, I'm more interested in younger guys with low expectations or vets who know what they are (Muscala, not an option short-term, fits that description)
It's strange how many of these BIGz come with "chemistry issues/questionable reps" (Cousins, Whiteside, Howard, Thompson, Noel, Holmes, etc). It must be somewhat frustrating to be quickly marginalized on NBA rosters, from starter to low $$$ deals in a heartbeat. Their superpower, being BIGGER than their peers, is now their kryptonite, a step slower than their peers.

Agreed, Rule #1 we want a "good attitude/locker room guy" from our bench. After that, I'd lean towards a veteran defense-first center, that will set screens galore and clean up missed shots on offense. The addition of Gallinari/Brogdon adds plenty of scoring to the bench.
 

JM3

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One of the goals with the third big is to 'do no harm' chemistry/role wise, seems to me. So guys who have had issues along those lines---Howard, DC, Whiteside---you really need some current-ish info suggesting they have accepted where htey are career-wise for it to be worth it. There's some evidence Howard evolved to accepting a backup role, and this would be a half-step less than that. I am unsure there's any basis for believing the other two have accepted what they are, but you can talk to them and people around them. Just posting stats doesn't really answer the key question, imo.

I know some want to just say "their team is dumb" but I think Howard and Whiteside being jettisoned on an annual basis is worth considering here....not dispositive, but the upside of better stats is unlikely to be worth the downside of a chemistry challenge given the limited (likely) role.

Wiht that in mind, I'm more interested in younger guys with low expectations or vets who know what they are (Muscala, not an option short-term, fits that description)
How is their evidence that Howard has accepted the more limited role but Whiteside hasn't? Whiteside played really well in 18 mpg last year (starting 8 games). Howard played 16 mpg & didn't play nearly as well (starting 27 games).

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that someone who doesn't get passed around each year would likely be a better fit, but I see nothing in Howard's current profile, or past behaviors, to think he'd be a better fit in any way than Whiteside.
 

PedroKsBambino

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How is their evidence that Howard has accepted the more limited role but Whiteside hasn't? Whiteside played really well in 18 mpg last year (starting 8 games). Howard played 16 mpg & didn't play nearly as well (starting 27 games).

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that someone who doesn't get passed around each year would likely be a better fit, but I see nothing in Howard's current profile, or past behaviors, to think he'd be a better fit in any way than Whiteside.
Totally subjective---comments from people (beat writers, etc) that Howard was helpful as a teammate. We just don't have great data on this stuff, and i don't pretend to know with confidence. But I do think it matters, and the stats are pretty limited in value (imo) given roles/situation, limited minutes, etc.

I have no idea if Whiteside was or wasn't a good teammate in Utah---guys do figure it out. I'm just saying that's the more important question.
 
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mcpickl

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It's a tough needle to thread for the Celtics.

They need a center who's good enough to play 20 minutes a night if Rob or Al gets injured, but won't be miserable getting DNP-CDs when Rob and Al are healthy, and also will sign for the minimum.

Thomas Bryant would be nice, but he should be looking for more secure minutes looking to rebuild his value.

Is Cody Zeller healthy?
 
Jan 22, 2006
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View: https://twitter.com/dangercart/status/1544331745960534016



Interesting thought exercise here. Personally, I really don’t like it for the Celtics but I might be understating how good of a player DFS is.
I think I'd pass on that, though I'd admit that I don't know much about Kleber.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Grant is fairly close to untouchable for the Celtics. As a player he has good value, but his contextual value is much higher than his market value, if that makes sense. Specifically, the road that the Celtics will travel through the Eastern Conference playoffs makes Grant a really important piece.

Moving White gives me less heartburn, but you're one Brogdon injury away from giving Pritchard 20-25 minutes a game. That's probably not where you want to be.

I think the C's either get someone like Bryant for the minimum or wait to fill that 3rd string center role between now and the deadline. Anything else either comes with too large of a tax hit or fills one hole only to open up another.
 

JM3

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Totally subjective---comments from people (beat writers, etc) that Howard was helpful as a teammate. We just don't have great data on this stuff, and i don't pretend to know with confidence. But I do think it matters, and the stats are pretty limited in value (imo) given roles/situation, limited minutes, etc.

I have no idea if Whiteside was or wasn't a good teammate in Utah---guys do figure it out. I'm just saying that's the more important question.
Could any Laker really be described as helpful last year?

But yeah, who knows?
 

kazuneko

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There is talk that Pat Beverley might be bought out by Utah. If so, he would be an awesome signing by the Cs. Defensive intensity and career 37% would make him a great match for this team.
 

JM3

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To some extent it depends on which Kleber you get. He's capable of being the 3rd center, is not a bad defensive player & could fit in pretty well. But he went from a 41% 3 point shooter 2 years ago to 33% this past year, & it's not like he's not getting good looks playing with Luka.

If you have 41% 3 Kleber & don't have to give up draft capital, I'm in.

Smart/Brogdon can play most of the point minutes (all when healthy).

Wing minutes mostly Tatum/Brown/DFS (DFS played 33 mpg last year & played 80 games - they upped him to 43 mpg in the playoffs against Utah).

Big minutes Horford/TL/Kleber.

DFS played 65% of his minutes as an undersized 4 last year so lineups with 1-big, Tatum/Brown/DFS work, & the rest of the minutes without DFS would go to Gallo or 2nd big.
 

NomarsFool

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It's strange how many of these BIGz come with "chemistry issues/questionable reps" (Cousins, Whiteside, Howard, Thompson, Noel, Holmes, etc). It must be somewhat frustrating to be quickly marginalized on NBA rosters, from starter to low $$$ deals in a heartbeat. Their superpower, being BIGGER than their peers, is now their kryptonite, a step slower than their peers.
On a related note, it's amazing to me what has happened to Andre Drummond from max contract, All-Star, to vet minimum guy in such a short time period. Not saying at all that he has chemistry issues - he may or may not - no idea. Just interesting how the market for traditional rebounding bigs has completely cratered in the last few years.
 

mcpickl

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Man, I hate that hypothetical deal. DFS is a solid player but he doesn’t add size.
He doesn't add size himself, but he'd make your team bigger.

In this scenario, he'd be taking Whites minutes, but playing them as a backup forward and playing Jaylen more as a guard.
 

Euclis20

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In a world in which we could pencil in Brogdon for 65+ games and a full playoff run that deal would be worth thinking about. Since we live in a world in which Brogdon hasn't played 65+ games since his rookie year, I hate it.

There is talk that Pat Beverley might be bought out by Utah. If so, he would be an awesome signing by the Cs. Defensive intensity and career 37% would make him a great match for this team.
He'd be an excellent signing, but I'd think he could join a contender that would offer real minutes. He's basically been a full-time starter for the last 9 years (438 starts in 485 games), is he ready to be the 2nd or 3rd guard off the bench? Of course it would mean the end of Pritchard, but that shouldn't hold anything up.
 

PRabbit

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I'd hold off on any deal involving White, his value is probably pretty low right now. See where the roster is at the deadline and go from there, and if Brogdon is healthy he's big enough to spell Jaylen at the 3 for 10 minutes a game if they go smallball more often. There's still minutes for White.
 

JM3

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I thought I was out on PBev. Don't really see the fit & his skillset seems pretty redundant with what they already have & doesn't seem to do anything to fit their actual possible needs (big depth, wing depth).

Weird statistical thing, though... in PBev's 10 seasons, his team has had a positive +/- every single year, & 9 of those 10 years, the team has been better with him on the court than off it.

I still really don't see the fit unless we're doing something like the DFS hypothetical, but if the price was right...
 

BigSoxFan

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He doesn't add size himself, but he'd make your team bigger.

In this scenario, he'd be taking Whites minutes, but playing them as a backup forward and playing Jaylen more as a guard.
Got it. Playing Jaylen more as a guard isn’t really attractive to me given his poor ball handling. Primarily, though, I just don’t trust Brogdon to stay healthy enough to allow us to feel comfortable dealing White.
 

Devizier

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I like the Celtics depth as it stands right now, third big excepted. I would rather they keep White because I remember how awful the team looked without a second unit ballhandler.
 

BigSoxFan

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I like the Celtics depth as it stands right now, third big excepted. I would rather they keep White because I remember how awful the team looked without a second unit ballhandler.
Same. I would need a pretty compelling reason to deal White and fully expose ourselves to Brogdon’s medical history.
 

Euclis20

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I like the Celtics depth as it stands right now, third big excepted. I would rather they keep White because I remember how awful the team looked without a second unit ballhandler.
Yeah, Brogdon's injury issues are highlighted everywhere but the rest of the backcourt is gonna miss time, too. Over the last 3 years, Brown has missed an average of 15 games, Smart has missed an average of 16 games and White has missed an average of 16 games. There is enough depth to survive the regular season, but in the playoffs if 2 of Smart/White/Brogdon are out, they will be hard pressed to get back to the finals. Trade away one of those guys and the injury margin for error completely vanishes.
 

tbb345

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Man, I hate that hypothetical deal. DFS is a solid player but he doesn’t add size.
That was honestly my reaction but in later tweets Bernardoni says that most fans will think the Mavs are giving up way too much so I thought I may be looking at the offer through green tinted glasses
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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The Kornet signing is kind of a head scratcher - must be a make good for sitting in Maine all of last year or something? He wasn't good enough to make the team (or any NBA team) last year until after buyout season where he filled the very end of the bench, and there are a lot more options available right now. With the luxury tax, cutting and replacing a minimum guy is super expensive. I hope Brad doesn't regret this one.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Kornet of his first couple years who was a 35-36% 3 pt shooter I get as a bench big and 5-out option when you're in need. But other than cheerleading he doesn't have much role the last few years. So, I get it as a deep bench guy but it has to be about teamwork, attitude, willingness to be that deep bench guy rather than on-court role
 

NomarsFool

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I'm a little surprised at 3 years for Hauser, too. I realize they think there's a chance he could have an NBA skill, but still - did he play a non-garbage time minute at all last season? I can't remember one.
 

Koufax

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Kornet signing? When and for how much? I can't find a trace of it.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'd be surprised if Dallas didn't hang up on Stevens if he proposed that trade to Dallas. That's a pretty green tinted proposal by Bernardoni. He is like Barstool's version of a Fansided piece.
 

Jimbodandy

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Got it. Playing Jaylen more as a guard isn’t really attractive to me given his poor ball handling. Primarily, though, I just don’t trust Brogdon to stay healthy enough to allow us to feel comfortable dealing White.
The top 5 playoff combinations (5-man BBREF) were pretty clear on the matter.

That is, I'm not sure how much more "guard" Brown could play. Among those most common lineups, in 920 playoff minutes he was a forward in 124 of them. Most commonly paired with Smart (like 800 of those minutes) and nobody else that remotely resembles a guard.

In the regular season, things will be different. But clearly Brad/Ime see Brown as a guard.
 

mcpickl

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That was honestly my reaction but in later tweets Bernardoni says that most fans will think the Mavs are giving up way too much so I thought I may be looking at the offer through green tinted glasses
I think Dallas would for sure say no to that deal.
 

mcpickl

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The top 5 playoff combinations (5-man BBREF) were pretty clear on the matter.

That is, I'm not sure how much more "guard" Brown could play. Among those most common lineups, in 920 playoff minutes he was a forward in 124 of them. Most commonly paired with Smart (like 800 of those minutes) and nobody else that remotely resembles a guard.

In the regular season, things will be different. But clearly Brad/Ime see Brown as a guard.
He'd be playing more "guard" than you'd currently expect him to play this coming season, when you've now added Brogdon to the guard mix.

You'd be putting him back into the guard minutes he played last year.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I'm a little surprised at 3 years for Hauser, too. I realize they think there's a chance he could have an NBA skill, but still - did he play a non-garbage time minute at all last season? I can't remember one.
It is a good deal for both sides; Hauser gets some security and life-changing money, the Celtics get a low-risk end of bench player who could prove way more valuable than that in the same way that guys like Duncan Robinson and Joe Harris have before signing very large follow-up contracts (Strus is following a similar path). That's just sort of how it goes for this type of player—a season or more as bench fodder and then suddenly they are seeing 20+ minutes a game on good teams because that one skill fits.

On top of that, it locks in a little bit of salary for 2 years (and, if needed, a 3rd) that can be used in a trade. With no 1st rounders the last couple years and none next year, the team is light on short money deals that could be needed to help reach a potential trade match in the same way they used most of the bench mob in the Brogdon deal. Aside from drafted players, it's uncommon to be able to lock in low salaries like that for multiple years since vet min guys are either chasing a ring for a year or trying to reestablish value for a new deal. So instead you can dish it out to guys who won't get it elsewhere on the open market so they are happy to take it, and they at least know the system.

If they theoretically wanted to chase a big fish sometime in the next couple years, these kinds of deals could be stacked onto White's deal, for example, to get in range of a $20+ million player rather than having to include key rotation players simply to match the money.
 

Jimbodandy

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He'd be playing more "guard" than you'd currently expect him to play this coming season, when you've now added Brogdon to the guard mix.

You'd be putting him back into the guard minutes he played last year.
Yeah he'll definitely be more of a forward.

Just saying that even with White on the team and a healthy Marcus, JB played 85% guard in the playoffs.

If they take this opportunity to go less 2bigz, I'm all for it.

And the worry was about Brown playing "more guard". Not sure that's likely. Also not sure that's even possible.
 

mcpickl

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The Kornet signing is kind of a head scratcher - must be a make good for sitting in Maine all of last year or something? He wasn't good enough to make the team (or any NBA team) last year until after buyout season where he filled the very end of the bench, and there are a lot more options available right now. With the luxury tax, cutting and replacing a minimum guy is super expensive. I hope Brad doesn't regret this one.
I'd wait to see what the guarantees are on this before even thinking about it.

My guess is it's closer a tiny guarantee in year one only than it is 2 guaranteed years.
 

bakahump

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I am by no means a Capologist, But couldnt they offer Utah a 2nd and take PBEV into the Trade exemption? if they REALLY wanted him.

Not saying they SHOULD (they probably shouldnt....they seem to have enough guards and PBEV makes you smaller and doesnt seem super switchable......though I could be wrong).

Utah does it to get an asset they otherwise wouldnt (2nds gotta be better then paying the buyout).
Celts do it.......not sure why....I guess so that they guarantee they get him???..... probably not worth the tax but they could.

(and yeah it would cost them a BUNCH more money on the tax. again cant see the value.)

But I guess the bigger point is couldnt they do this for ANY buyout candidate you REALLY liked? Sure you take on their salary... (into one of the various trade exemptions...AND pay the tax on THAT figure).....but you ensure that YOU get "Guybeingboughtout" as opposed to him taking the buyout, shuning you and signing with Milwaukee/miami/GS etc etc.
 

mcpickl

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Yeah he'll definitely be more of a forward.

Just saying that even with White on the team and a healthy Marcus, JB played 85% guard in the playoffs.

If they take this opportunity to go less 2bigz, I'm all for it.

And the worry was about Brown playing "more guard". Not sure that's likely. Also not sure that's even possible.
This is why I think there's still another fairly big move to come.

I think they see Jaylen as a guard too, and if he just plays the first 4 minutes of halves at guard, that would still leave only 88 minutes a night for Smart, Brogdon, White and a little bit of Pritchard at guard. If Jaylen plays even more guard, it's an even tougher crunch.

I know there will be injuries, but it's tough to get all those guys enough minutes when there aren't.

A guard for forward flip would ease that a bit.
 

mcpickl

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I am by no means a Capologist, But couldnt they offer Utah a 2nd and take PBEV into the Trade exemption? if they REALLY wanted him.

Not saying they SHOULD (they probably shouldnt....they seem to have enough guards and PBEV makes you smaller and doesnt seem super switchable......though I could be wrong).

Utah does it to get an asset they otherwise wouldnt (2nds gotta be better then paying the buyout).
Celts do it.......not sure why....I guess so that they guarantee they get him???..... probably not worth the tax but they could.

(and yeah it would cost them a BUNCH more money on the tax. again cant see the value.)

But I guess the bigger point is couldnt they do this for ANY buyout candidate you REALLY liked? Sure you take on their salary... (into one of the various trade exemptions...AND pay the tax on THAT figure).....but you ensure that YOU get "Guybeingboughtout" as opposed to him taking the buyout, shuning you and signing with Milwaukee/miami/GS etc etc.
They could, but between his salary and luxury tax penalties, it would cost them around 60M bucks with their current roster.

Safe to say they wouldn't, and shouldn't, do that for Beverly.
 

ManicCompression

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Does anyone in the league want Pat Bev after his scorched earth ESPN run? How do you bring that guy into a locker room, especially when he's fairly limited player?
 

bakahump

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Agreed. But again the main point is that FOR THE RIGHT FIT/GUY We can forgo the "Will he wont he" and just bring the guy in for the cost of a 2nd (maybe even with protections).

But as we both agree it probably needs to be a perfect situation as its gonna cost serious tax money.
 

deanx0

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Could Derrick Favors fit the back Time Lord and Al role? I can't imagine they'd need to give OKC too much for him. Can he fit in one of the trade exceptions?
 

Koufax

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I'd wait to see what the guarantees are on this before even thinking about it.

My guess is it's closer a tiny guarantee in year one only than it is 2 guaranteed years.
The link that Crazy/Lazy provides says that the full $4.5M is guaranteed.